cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?
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  1. #1
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    Default cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?

    I have some cooking yeast for bread making. Can I use this for pollen patties or must I only use brewers yeast?

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  3. #2
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    No. they are two different styles of yeast.
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  4. #3
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    Brewers yeast is the "spent" yeast used in beer making, etc. Its actually of no use as yeast any longer. Companies buy this highly nutritious by-product (sludge) from the large brewers and its used primarily for cat and dog food industry. Some niche markets such as the bee industry has found it for it's purpose also.

    Nutritional outlines of what makes a good supplement is known for bees. Not all brewers yeast (and pollen supplements on the market) are good for bees. Know what your buying.

  5. #4
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    From what I've read, it should also be pointed out that Brewer's Yeast is processed, and isn't the exact same as you'd get from a beer brewer.

    As I understand it, spent yeast (trub) that you'd get from a home brewer is VERY high in sodium levels, and will wind up killing your bees. Brewer's Yeast has been "washed" to lower sodium levels, but still retain it's B-vitamins and protein levels.

    If someone could verify this, however, I'd be appreciative.

    DS

  6. #5

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    As a home brewer, I don't know where the sodium would come from. You make a big vat of sugar water (the sugar being grain based for beer, or fruit based for wine, honey for mead) and add yeast. Flavors in beer come from unfermented sugar, roasted barley, and flower pedals, and there is very little of this in the batch. I'm sure there is some sodium, but I don't think it's out of line with stuff bees find in nature.

    The yeast can change the molecules of the sugar around, but it can't add elements that aren't in the bottle. Sugars are carbon, oxygen and hydrogen, as is ethanol.

    Any clearing up of this would be greatly appreciated.

  7. #6
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    Default yeast

    I agree w/ Shapleigh. There should not bee any sodium in the trub unless added! yeast eats the sugars and emits the alchohol right? Grain, hops and corn sugars(the basic ingredients to homebrew) are not comonly high in sodium. High Sodium would kill the yeast I would think? Thanks for the good idea on what to do with the trub! UNLESS I am totally off my rocker. I am courious if there is any scientific validity to his words.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: yeast

    My son & I are fairly new beekeepers, and he is a first year home brewer. He explained Brewers Spent Grain (BSG) to me & said it was a good source of protein, then he asked what it might be used for in recipes. First I thought dog treats, then I had this idea to use it in protein patties for our bees. I began a search and found this thread of conversation!

    Does anyone know of any further research on this topic? Have any of you tried to use BSG for your bees? Thank you.

  9. #8
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    Default Re: yeast

    I'm a new beekeeper, but I have been a homebrewer for 25 years. Just a couple thoughts;

    I agree, no clue where the sodium would come from??

    There are many, many strains of yeast which is used to brew beer. There are even wild strains that can be captured from the air. Brewers carefully choose the strain they want based on the characteristics of the yeast. Yeast effects the taste and alcohol content of the finished product. You absolutely could use bread yeast in the place of brewer's yeast, but the finished product might not be desirable.

    Spent grain is generally rather low in nutritional value. In the mashing process, the grain is heated to a specific temp, the starch is converted to sugar, and then the sugars are "washed" from the grain in a process called sparging. What is left is "spent" grain. It is not useless though. Again, I am a new beekeeper, so I am not sure what use it has for bees, but I will read more for sure. Most of my spent grain gets fed to my chickens as is, once it cools. It's not loaded with nutritional value, but the chickens love it and my flock of 15 hens will eat a 20# pile of grain in a day. I have also made wholegrain bread with the spent grain by mixing it with whole wheat flour, some honey, and yeast. The finished product is generally dense and rich. I like it, but my wife won't eat it. My friend does make dog treats with his grain.

    Anyway, I am interested to learn how these two hobbies I enjoy can overlap. I have made several batches of mead with local honey over the years, but I really look forward to making a batch with my own honey!

    Alan

  10. #9
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    Default Re: yeast

    Hi, Alan,

    Have you used spent grain to feed bees protein? If yes, what is your recipe?

    Thanks,
    Michele

  11. #10
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    Default Re: cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?

    Ok - this is a text file of recipes and notes from my beekeeping 'archive' I put together around 6 years ago - hope it may be of use to somebody:

    USE POLLEN SUBSTITUTE INGREDIENTS WITHIN 6 MONTHS.
    #################################################

    Consider Rye Flour ?

    Soy Flour:
    Baker's Soy Flour Protein 38% Oil 18%
    Expander Full Fat Soy Protein 34% Oil 14%
    Extruded Full Fat Soy Protein 38% Oil 18%


    Open Feeding of Dry Pollen Substitute

    3 cups Soybean Flour
    1 1/2 cups Brewer's Yeast
    2 teaspoonfuls Sea Salt
    1 teaspoonful Vitamin C powder
    6 tablespoons Dry Milk Powder

    Sift all ingredients together, place in large bucket.
    Place bucket 25 feet from colony to encourage foraging.
    Bait the feeder with 1/2 teaspoonful of honey
    Bring bucket in during the night, to prevent dampness caking the pollen


    Dry Pollen Substitute
    Dry pollen substitute can be placed directly into the hive or used in bird feeders to attract local bees.

    * 3 parts (by weight) Soy Flour (expeller-processed soybean flour)
    * 1 part (by weight) Brewers Yeast
    * 1 part (by weight) Nonfat Dry Milk (Not instant milk)

    Simply integrate the powders together and use. Occasionally bees may refuse to eat pollen substitute, most often when fresh pollen is available. It is, however, possible to trick bees to take the substitute when necessary by integrating a small amount of Vitamin C into the mixture. Often 1 teaspoon per 5 cups can be added. If a powered form is not available, it is possible to crush a Vitamin C tablet for integration.


    Pollen Patties

    3 units sugar syrup (2:1 or 67%)
    1 unit white gran table sugar
    2 units Soy Flour
    2 units yeast
    1/3 unit pollen

    Start with adding ALL the sugar syrup and then add the powdered ingredients slowly -- starting with the pollen, then the yeast, then the soy and finally, the sugar. Add the ingredients over about ten minutes. Do not add anything else or substitute ingredients. Check the recipe often to make sure you are following it.

    At first, the contents of the mixer will be gooey until -- at some point, -- a rough ball of dough will form and run around in the drum as you slowly add the last ingredients. Work with that ball and add solids slowly until the ball becomes so stiff that the dough is ready. It may be necessary to use a stick or scraper to loosen the ball from the sides and to scrape the sides so that the ball runs free. Sometimes adding a 1/2 cup of sugar or soy between the ball and the drum will make the ball form better.

    When you get the right consistency, stop adding the solids. It does not matter if the formula is exact as long as the dough is right. If the dough seems perfect before the last sugar is added, quit and make up the patties right away. Do not add more liquid.


    Pollen-Substitute Patties
    Use: Stimulates brood production; apply in late February or early March
    Recipe: (Makes a 1.5 pound patty)
    Dry Part
    1.5 cups (8oz.) fat-free soy flour
    .5 cup (1oz.) Brewer’s yeast
    Sugar Syrup
    1.5 cups (12oz.) granulated sugar
    .75 cup (6oz.) Hot water

    Mix dry ingredients and add slowly to syrup until mixture is like stiff bread dough. Press between wax paper. Place patty over cluster with wax paper up.


    Pollen Patty
    To make a pollen patty, bind the Dry Pollen Substitute with enough 2:1 Syrup to make a putty or dough like consistency.
    FWIW - I made some pollen patties using de-bittered Brewers Yeast, Vit.C, Dried Milk, Soy Flour, Salt and Sugar Syrup, only to discover that the bees much preferred the natural pollen of which they have an elegant sufficiency - so I ended up eating the pollen patties myself ... and they are absolutely brilliant !
    LJ
    A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/

  12. #11
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    Default Re: cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?

    Quote Originally Posted by little_john View Post
    Ok - this is a text file of recipes and notes from my beekeeping 'archive' I put together around 6 years ago - hope it may be of use to somebody:



    FWIW - I made some pollen patties using de-bittered Brewers Yeast, Vit.C, Dried Milk, Soy Flour, Salt and Sugar Syrup, only to discover that the bees much preferred the natural pollen of which they have an elegant sufficiency - so I ended up eating the pollen patties myself ... and they are absolutely brilliant !
    LJ
    LOL! Thanks for your response.

    Michele

  13. #12
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    Default Re: cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?

    I have not used my grain to feed my bees. I didn't even know it was possible. But I plan to learn now.

    Just some other odds and ends after looking at this thread again.......yeast is really, really, really had to "kill", rather it goes dormant. Extreme heat is one of the few things that can kill it. Also "trub" is not dead yeast, and it is not only yeast. Once the alcohol level gets too high for the yeast to eat sugar, it drops out of suspension and sinks to the bottom of the fermenting vessel. Other stuff also falls out of suspension too at various stages of fermentation; grain particles and hops bits mostly. Brewers often wash the trub to cultivate the dormant yeast for future use.

    Much like bees, yeast is a pretty amazing living thing.

  14. #13
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    Default Re: cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanInNJ View Post
    But I plan to learn now.
    I look forward to reading what you discover!

  15. #14
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    Default Re: cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?

    Bread yeast and brewers yeast are the same yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), but bread yeast as-sold for breadmaking is different in other important ways (from a bees perspective) than beer yeast sold as a nutritional supplements.

    Bread yeast has been lyophilized (freeze-dried) in a way which keeps the yeast viable. A major part of this is the addition of emulsifiers such as sorbitan monostearate and anti-oxidants such as ascorbic acid (vitamin C). The later may be fine for bees, but as far as I can tell no research has been done regarding the safety of the former for beers - and it is often half the weight of the dried yeast. Feeding this to bees is probably not a good idea - if anything, it would have half the nutritional content you are expecting, and at worse, it may be toxic or prevent the bees from feeding.

    Nutritional/beer yeast is spent yeast from a brewery. It is minimally processed before use - typically, it is washed with water a few times to remove the bitter hop oils that are often left over from the brewing process (this makes the yeast more palatable), and sometimes they have been hydrolyzed to increase the availability of the nutrients in the yeast. It is then dehydreated, ground and packaged. Hydrolyzed yeast are prepared in one of two ways - holding at ~50C/120F for several hours to allow the yeasts' enzymes to break down the proteins and cell wall, or treatment with hot acid for an hour or so, followed by neutralizatoin. Either of those should be safe to use with bees.

    If you are a homebrewer you can make nutritional yeast fairly easily from your spent yeast:
    1. Collect your spent yeast in a large glass or metal jar (you want something tall & narrow, like a 1L/qt mason jar) and cap lightly (so that gas can escape).
    2. Let the yeast settle - over night in the fridge is best. Do not tightly cap the jar as the yeast may still be active and could pressurise/explode the jar.
    3. Pour off the liquid and resuspend the yeast in as much water as will fit in the jar.
    4. Let settle as in #2.
    5. Repeat steps 2-4 one more time
    6. After the final settle, pour off as much liquid as you can. Then transfer the jar of slurry to an oven (or sous-vide) set to 50C/120F. Hold the slurry at this temperature over-night
    7. The yeast is now hydrolyzed; spread on parchment paper and dry in an oven or dehydrator if you want dried yeast; the slurry is rather thick and can be used as-is for many uses - be sure the reduce the amount of water added elsewhere to compensate.


    EDIT: when doing this, it is better to use young yeast (e.g. out of a primary fermenter) than old yeast that has been sitting under mead/cider/wine/beer for a while, as the old yeast will be less nutritious

  16. #15
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    Default

    You want use yeast leftover from fermentation process. Dryed yeast added to the beginning of fermentation is not what you want to use.

  17. #16
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    Default Re: cooking yeast Verses brewers yeast?

    I have use expired bread yeast in making patties. Bees took it just the same. Proteins and amino acid profiles are very similar. Brewers yeast is not spent, it can easily be restarted. IMO the only reason they use brewers yeast it the cost. If bread yeast was a cheaper byproduct we would be using that.

    The yeast in your pollen sub is not dead, it will restart given the chance. Add water and sugar to the right SG and see what happens.

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