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Thread: SUMAC

  1. #21
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    JEEZ - now I am more confused than ever! Ask two beekeepers a question and you get three different answers! Unfortunately, I don't have any supers on yet, so I may use some this weekend and see what happens. I know there was an article in one of my old beekeeping magazines. I will have to look for it.
    "The greatest threat is our own staggering ignorance and cavalier treatment of the natural world to which we belong."

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  3. #22
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    I'm glad we could help. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  4. #23
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    --But an argument that suggests sticking a plant in a smoker and smokeing your bees with it is bad, while the rest of the beekeeping community is already smokeing their bees for calmness, while also sticking strips of poison in the hive just plain falls flat.

    A treatment is a treatment, no mater how you disguise it.

  5. #24
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    --JEEZ - now I am more confused than ever! Ask two beekeepers a question and you get three different answers!

    Dear Parke County Queen,

    I’ll let the Sumac advocates continue this discussion, but I wanted to have a parting word.

    You may get 3 different answers from other beekeepers, but you will get only one answer from me, and that’s to avoid contaminates and treatments were ever possible. it’s not a popular position on these lists for me to go against the treatment advocates, but I was never one to jump on the bandwagon.

    There are a billion excuses one can use to justify the use of treatments, and I have not the time to fight them all off, but a treatment disguised as something else, is in the end still a treatment.

    You can prop up bad genetics and give them artificial advantage, and have success with your bees in the short term. But you will pay later when these lesser fit genetics are allowed to breed with your queens and surrounding feral population.

    OR, you can eliminate the treatments and breed from your best performers and weed out to bad, and improve the overall breeding of a sustainable fit population of honeybees for long term stability. It’s your choice.

    Happy Beekeeping! [img]smile.gif[/img]

  6. #25
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    Pcolar, have you ever been to a doctor? Do you seek medical treatment when your family gets sick?

    Just curious....

  7. #26
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    Hi Iddee,

    This analogy has been tried before, putting humans at the same level as other organisms, but I’ll play along for awhile.

    Yes, when they are sick, we seek medical treatment.

    So you are saying the colonies are sick that have varroa?

  8. #27
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    so...if i smoke the hive to inspect it or to install a bee escape that is ok. however, if the hive has mites and a mite is killed because i've smoked it, that is considered a treatment and is wrong?

  9. #28
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    This has been an interesting thread. I agree with Pcolar that I would like to eliminate "artificial" treatments in the hive, but I haven't found a way to do that quite yet.

    I continue to smoke my bees when I work them. I use whatever wood is available to me when I light up. I'm absolutely certain there is stuff in the smoke that isn't good for me and probably not all that good for the bees. I have no idea exactly what is in the smoke because, like I say, I tend to use whatever is available.

    I know I've used sumac wood. I wonder if that has the same compounds as the berries. I knocked some lower branches off a Douglas Fir and used that in my smoker. Was that a bad idea?

    These are probably unaswerable questions. You do the best you can.
    Linux - World domination through world cooperation

  10. #29
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    Dick,

    I am licensed as a pesticide applicator here in PA. I have many hours of training, and am required to take more training on an annual basis. According to the law, its use in beehives (same as some of the unregestered essential oils etc.) would be considered illegal, because it is not a registered pesticide.

    If you smoke a colony with the intent of killing mites, or if you "pretend" it's not your intent but still select a fuel for smoke knowing that it will kill mites. This considered a pesticide, and therefore a treatment.
    Not only is the practice of using unregistered pesticides illegal, but it can also create undesirable effects.

    What people are doing here is trying to justify the use of a pesticide by saying that it is only meant as a source of fuel for smoke.

    Using this freakanalogy,,,

    You could then use apistan strips, and say that they are in there for ‘frame marking’ purposes and not a pesticide. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    You could treat with formic acid and say that you are using it to enhance the natural substance (formic) found in honeys and not using it as a pesticide. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  11. #30
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    --,,,I would like to eliminate "artificial" treatments in the hive, but I haven't found a way to do that quite yet.

    You gotta get on Organicbeekeepers if you aren’t already.

    Not sure about Douglas Fir, it would probably be ok, but I would avoid any substances that are known to kill mites, because this would be a treatment and make fair assessments of colony performance or mite resistance more difficult.

    How I eliminated treatments,,,

    I basically tried to do what the Lusbys have done. First I regressed. Dee and Ed place high emphasis on ferals, so I started collecting ferals and killed off any queen that even was suspected of being from commercial lines. Of course, many ferals originated from domestic colonies, so I kept record of which swarms were caught in rather remote and woodland areas which might suggest lesser domestic influence.

    I also started to assess all colonies and swarms each year for all the routing performance and desired traits. I never feed bees as I want bees that can thrive in my environment without crutches. I won’t go into all of this selection stuff, but I will say I am very strict and queens will loose their heads if performance isn’t excellent. Poor performers are replaced with my best performing feral swarms that I assess. It took me several years, but I am now averaging about 10% winter loss, which isn’t bad.

  12. #31
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    >>>>many ferals originated from domestic colonies<<<<

    Joe, ALL ferals originated from domestic colonies in the US. That's what the word means. I don't know the technical definition for pesticide, but to my limited education, it is a substance made or refined for the sole purpose of killing pests other than plants. Any substance that grows on it's own that I use to control pests is not, in my opinion, a pesticide.

    IE: Cedar wood in my closet for moths...
    Marigolds in my tomato garden.
    Snakes in my barn for rats and mice.
    Guineas in the yard for ticks.
    I could go on and on.
    To me those, and smoke from any local growing plant for mites are not pesticides.

    If I am wrong, it won't be the first time, and probably won't be the last.

  13. #32
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    ---->
    Marigolds in my tomato garden.
    Snakes in my barn for rats and mice.
    Guineas in the yard for ticks.
    I could go on and on.
    ----->

    Iddee,
    This is a common tactic to go off on ridiculous examples to try and prove a point. I was hoping you would be above that.

    Anyhow,,,

    According to the EPA Definition:

    "A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest...."

    So that includes "any substance" obtained from plants growing in your yard that are stuffed in your smoker and used as a pesticide.

  14. #33
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    ....and of course it's also illegal to use Crisco patties in your hive and powdered sugar.

    >...or if you "pretend" it's not your intent but still select a fuel for smoke knowing that it will kill mites.

    ahh, i see. so, now we must test all smoke to make sure it DOESN'T kill mites in order to smoke our hives legally. interesting.

    [size="1"][ June 30, 2006, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ][/size]

  15. #34
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    Dick, I just got done telling Iddee,

    This is a common tactic you are employing to go off on ridiculous statments to try and prove a point. I was hoping you would be above that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    My point is that once you start a routine of killing mites for your colonies that can’t hold their own, it becomes impossible to evaluate these colonies for any mite resistant traits they might have. You then are propping up bad genetics which will survive and produce plenty of non resistant stock that can then negatively impact any resistance that other colonies might have against the mites when your best queens mate with this inferior stock.


    A quote strait from Marla Spivak:
    "Putting pesticides into a bee colony is not a long-term solution and risks contaminating bee products (honey and beeswax) besides. My goal is to breed bees that are resistant to diseases and mite pests so beekeepers don't have to use pesticides."

  16. #35
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    Well your first post on the thread was about smoking pot. Then you wrote about "argressive genetics" as compared to something about non-Jewish bees. Next you mentioned eating sumac will cause vomiting. Now you are making accusations that I'm resorting to ridiculous statements. Really! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

    [size="1"][ July 01, 2006, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ][/size]

  17. #36
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    >If you smoke a colony with the intent of killing mites, or if you "pretend" it's not your intent but still select a fuel for smoke knowing that it will kill mites. This considered a pesticide, and therefore a treatment. Not only is the practice of using unregistered pesticides illegal, but it can also create undesirable effects.

    Joe, first let me say that in principle at least I agree with your opinions on treatments. I think a lot of people here on Beesource agree with the concept of treatment-free beekeeping, even if they haven't fully achieved it. So you don't need to get all defensive.

    That said, I have to take exception to your above atatement! You are mixing two different concepts here- one that treatments are bad, which I basically agree with and the other that any use of a substance that impacts mites is a pesticide and that the use of an unregistered pesticide is illegal.

    Balderdash! What's illegal is using a labeled pesticide in a fashion other than it's recommended use, or for a purpose contrary with it's stated purpose i.e., leaving Apistan strips in your hives for 6 months, or using them with supers on. That's illegal.

    You make it sound like anyone using sumac smoke to control mites is using an unregistered pesticide and is breaking the law, and they're not.

    Let's take powdered sugar as an example. It is not a labeled pesticide and it is used in bee hives to knock down and kill mites. Are you suggesting that using powdered sugar in this manner is illegal? I hope not!

    So go ahead and promote treatment-free beekeeping, but drop the scare tactics please!

    George-
    Dulcius ex asperis

  18. #37
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    --Well your first post on the thread was about smoking pot.

    This was to illustrate the absurdity when someone claims to use a fuel that has ’known pesticidal qualities’ and pretends be using it only for it’s smoke quality.
    The saying “I didn't just fall off the turnip truck“ fits real good here.

    --Then you wrote about "argressive genetics"

    It is obvious “when using pesticide in your smoker” that aggressive colonies would get a higher dose.

    --as compared to something about non-Jewish bees.

    I have no idea what you are talking about here!!!

    --Next you mentioned eating sumac will cause vomiting.

    That was a quote from the MSDS, and firmly rooted in FACT.

    --Now you are making accusations that I'm resorting to ridiculous statements. Really!

    Well your comment that
    <<<“we must test all smoke to make sure it DOESN'T kill mites”>>> is a bit ridiculous.

    But from a reality stand point, it is certainly different when one knowingly chooses a fuel that was researched and found to have ‘KNOWN PESTICIDAL QUALITIES’ as compared to one that chooses a fuel that would not have a KNOWN pesticidal side affect.

  19. #38
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    >>>>This is a common tactic to go off on ridiculous examples to try and prove a point.<<<<

    No, I don't think it is off-track. I think it fits quite well. We are discussing trying to rid ourselves of a pest using locally available, natural remedies. I grew up with animals of all kinds and we never called a vet. We went with the age old remedies.
    More examples are:
    Butter for distemper in puppies.
    Chewing tobacco for worms in goats.
    Coal for worms in pigs.
    Lye in dogs and cats for worms.

    How many more would you like?

    No, they are not ridiculous examples. They are tried and proven ways to keep your livestock and pets healthy,and yourself.

    Bees are livestock, and I will use other "Grandma's remedies" if I can find them.

    PS.Dick was referring to mispelling gentle, and spelling it gentile, or non-jewish. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  20. #39
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    http://jaxmed.com/articles/Diseases/p_sumac.htm
    (Toxicodendron vernix) can be found mainly in the eastern United States. It grows in peat bogs and swamps. To identify Poison Sumac, look for the fruit that grows between the leaf and the branch. Nonpoisonous sumac has fruit growing from the ends of it's branches.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumac
    Rhus is a genus approximately 250 species of woody shrubs and small trees in the family Anacardiaceae. They are commonly called sumac or sumach. Some species (including poison-ivy, poison-oak, and poison sumac), often placed in this genus, are here treated in the genus Toxicodendron, which differs in highly allergenic foliage and grayish-white fruit but is not genetically distinct. The name derives from the Greek name for sumac, rhous.........

    In North America, the smooth sumac, Rhus glabra, and the staghorn sumac, Rhus typhina, are sometimes used to make a beverage, termed "sumac-ade" or "Indian lemonade" or "rhus juice". This drink is made by soaking the drupes in cool water, rubbing the active principle off the drupes, then straining the liquid through a cotton cloth and sweetening it. Native Americans also used the leaves and berries of the smooth and staghorn sumacs combined with tobacco in traditional smoking mixtures.

    [size="1"][ July 01, 2006, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Ross ][/size]

  21. #40
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    --That said, I have to take exception to your above atatement! You are mixing two different concepts here-

    I don’t understand quite your point here but,,,

    There is no mixing of concepts!!

    They are separate comments unique the their own form, each comment stands on its own merits and one comment is not dependant on the other and therefore not mixed. It is a pesticide AND it is an illegal treatment, but one concept is neither inclusive nor dependant on the other in it’s factual basis.

    Here, take a looksy:

    Comment #1
    “,,,if you "pretend" it's not your intent but still select a fuel for smoke knowing that it will kill mites. This considered a pesticide”

    I referenced strait from the EPA
    http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/securty.htm
    “Broadly defined, a pesticide is any agent used to kill or control undesired insects, weeds, rodents, fungi, bacteria, or other organisms.”

    Comment #2
    “Not only is the practice of using unregistered pesticides illegal,”

    I referenced this from
    MID-ATLANTIC APICULTURE RESEARCH AND EXTENSION CONSORTIUM
    http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/Feb2000_newsletter.html
    “,,,IT IS ILLEGAL TO USE UNREGISTERED MATERIALS IN HONEY BEE COLONIES. USE ONLY REGISTERED MATERIALS AND FOLLOW LABEL DIRECTION AT ALL TIMES”


    --Balderdash! What's illegal is using a labeled pesticide in a fashion other than it's recommended use, or for a purpose contrary with it's stated purpose i.e., leaving Apistan strips in your hives for 6 months, or using them with supers on. That's illegal.


    Unless an exemption is granted by the EPA. A pesticide is not legal unless it is registered by the EPA


    --You make it sound like anyone using sumac smoke to control mites is using an unregistered pesticide and is breaking the law, and they're not.


    If I may refer you to the advice from MAAREC

    MID-ATLANTIC APICULTURE RESEARCH AND EXTENSION CONSORTIUM
    http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/Feb2000_newsletter.html

    PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IT IS ILLEGAL TO USE UNREGISTERED MATERIALS IN HONEY BEE COLONIES. USE ONLY REGISTERED MATERIALS AND FOLLOW LABEL DIRECTION AT ALL TIMES


    --So go ahead and promote treatment-free beekeeping, but drop the scare tactics please!

    I don’t see that I am using scare tactics. All information I posted about the health dangers of these substances and EPA laws concerning the illegality of using unregistered pesticides, have their bases in fact, having been referenced by me in the MSDS, MAAREC or other such creditable sources.

    It is not my intent to scare you. But if you are scared by this, maybe your gut is right and you should be scared.

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