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TF until today

30K views 112 replies 32 participants last post by  snl 
#1 ·
After 6 seasons on not treating (25-40% winter losses depending upon year) I had a massive loss last year (8/11 hives, 10/10 nucs). I wrote it off to bad management due to unavoidable time constraints and a very tough winter. I rarely had time to manage the hives and my personal experience makes me believe treatment free takes more time than when one treats. When you are treatment free there is no big eraser to clean up a heavy mite load.

I wanted to stay TF so this season I used queen capture to break the brood cycle, split hives and let them raise their own queen, monitored via sugar roll several times, etc. As I prep for winter my 3 hives have become 4 hives and 2 nucs (recombined 2 slow hives). All season long, I have had mite counts of 0 to 1. Then came late summer and 2 of my hives jumped to mite drops of 12+/24 hr. As it was too late to try to break the brood cycle I reverted to sugar dusting (yes, I understand that is a treatment that rarely works). After 2 weeks, the mite load remained constant and it became time to reconsider my philosophy. After hours of reading papers, forum posts, Randy Oliver, talking to friends etc., I finally decided OAV treatments would be the least invasive with minimal side effects to queens, bees and brood. Also, I am not selling honey this year.

I just completed treating the 4 hives about 20 minutes ago. The nucs have not shown that they require treatment but I will continue to monitor. As this was my first time, I took my time and treated each hive individually before moving on to the next. As I sit here writing this post, the hive activity appears normal with bees coming and going as usual. There is still brood in the hives so I will take a look at the sticky boards next Thursday to see what the mite kill was and then monitor for 2 days to see what the new drop count is. If needed, I will treat the individual hives that require it. To me, the proof will be my winter survival rate. Based on last year's calamity, I know that if I had not treated my 2 largest hives (with the high mite counts) there would have been little to no chance of them making it.

I'm sad to have had to treat but happy with my decision to do so and my choice of treatment. Now I have to change the blog!
 
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#2 ·
Sometimes in life we must make tough decisions that go against what we had hoped and worked toward for much time. These decisions are always the ones that make us sit and think about what went wrong and how it all happened.

I applaud you for letting every one know what has happened.
 
#6 ·
I was TF for about 6 years, up until 2011. I too had losses in the 25-45% range, until the last year. Starting in the fall, I went from (I think) 25 full hives and 30 nucs down to 5 nucs and 15 hives by November. By December I was down to 5 hives. By January I wasn't a beekeeper anymore. TF "survivor" stock, brood breaks and natural comb ultimately proved unsuccessful. I feel that when one hive crashed from mites, the mites flooded to the neighboring hives, causing a domino effect.

When I got replacement hives in 2012, I didn't consider going TF anymore. Just treating when needed and in the least invasive method possible. It proved to be a good choice for me.

When I announced that TF didn't work for me, I was criticized by the TF community. I was told I failed because I did something wrong. Should have been small cell instead of natural cell. I took off too much honey (even though they didn't starve), my "survivor" stock wasn't good enough, or a variety of other things. In the end, they pointed the finger at me. Made me feel horrible. I hope the same doesn't happen to you.

Good choice. I hope it works out for you.
 
#7 ·
I don't blame you; I do sympathize with you; and I am not in your shoes. From your blog, the inability of the bees last year to produce sufficient honey even without your harvesting honey is troubling. Did you see signs of varroa in the collapsed hives? I am curious what the effect of treating, not harvesting, and not feeding would be. But not so much that I would suggest that you do that. (See first sentence.) In my location and given my goals and purposes, I would not have taken the same steps that you did. (kirkwebster.com/index.php/collapse-and-recovery-the-gateway-to-treatment-free-beekeeping) But in the context of your larger operation, I get it. And your sharing your experience will help others know what to expect and prepare for decision points. Thank you for sharing, and I hope i goes well with you.
 
#8 ·
I think you will shocked at the mite drop you will get over the next few days. I hope you left your sticky boards in so you can see just how many mites it kills. Remember you will need to do a couple more treatments over the next few weeks to clean up the mites that are hidden under the capped brood. I've used the vapor on lots of hives and have never noticed any kind of negative effect. I don't use it much any more because of the time required for treatments. But, I must say it is one of the only treatments that I've used that I don't notice at least some negative side effect. Apigaurd and Apivar are my favorite treatments right now but, if your wanting to go semi treatment free Oxalic vapor is a good compromise.
 
#9 ·
I hope Eyeshooter sees johng's comment below.

"Remember you will need to do a couple more treatments over the next few weeks to clean up the mites that are hidden under the capped brood."

One OAV treatment this time of year is not sufficient.
 
#11 ·
The end goal should be keeping your bees alive with as little treatments possible, you did that, dead bees can't adapt. If ever I get in that position, I will also chose to treat.
Where I would try draw the line is giving them something that will kill off all the things in their gut that they depend on to keep their immune system going. An external treatment is not too bad. Hope your bees do better this winter, thanks for sharing.
 
#12 ·
Re the OA treatment, 70% to 80% of the mites are inside sealed brood and not available for the OA to kill.

So as per the other comments, repeat applications are necessary, and on a time frame that does not allow mites coming out of brood cells to get back into another one before getting killed.

It is very satisfying to do an OA treatment and a few days later see a big pile of dead mites on the floor but if that is the case, consider how many must still be in there and do something for them also.
 
#13 ·
To Burns375:
Most of the nucs were very low on honey tho' there were still a couple of frames in most of the nucs. 3 were empty.

As to the hives, I still have 7 full supers of honey I removed from the dead outs this spring plus I have given the nucs and hives about another 15 frames throughout the early spring and summer. Every hive had honey still present.

I had the state inspector come visit and autopsy the hives with me. We had a brutal winter last year. Several periods of 4 -5 days of -20F. Several hives "chimneyed" because it was so cold and never broke cluster. They moved straight up one side of the hive (leaving honey in their wake) reached the top and starved. Most of the others had significant numbers of mites on the tops of the frames. Ben said cold may have gotten some of them but the main culprit was mites.

Johng:
Thanks for the heads up. I've read that OAV only affects the phoretic mites. I plan on doing a 2nd treatment in 6 days and possibly one more the following week. I did take a look at one of the sticky boards under one of the high count hives. After about 8 hours there were more than 150 mites on the board.

I'm not thrilled that I had to treat but my plan was not working and I was going to loose 2 booming hives. The choice of OAV gives me some satisfaction in that it is considered an organic treatment but I am not trying to fool myself. All of the research says it is not harmful to the bees and does not affect the queen's cycle. We'll see but I do know the bees were acting as if nothing happened today. The front activity was a bit slow immediately after the treatments but was back to normal shortly thereafter. When I went out to clean up the apiary this afternoon the bees were numerous and gentle as normal. Just short some mites...

Thanks for all of your thoughtful responses.

John
 
#14 ·
SpecialKayme - Is there a lot of commercial or other bee sources in your area? I have wondered if maybe any hygienic genetics in your cutouts might have been bred out of the hive after a few years. Each mating could reduce the hygienic actions and finally the mites just overwhelm the colony. Hate to hear that because the path you went down sounds just like me.

Eyeshooter - I plan on doing treatment free but build a fogger in the spring just in case.

Sometime you have to do what you have to do. Good Luck
 
#20 ·
SpecialKayme - Is there a lot of commercial or other bee sources in your area?
None that I'm aware of. The hives were mainly in Cary, NC at the time. Not a hot spot for commercial apiaries. I've heard there was one commercial operator located in Wake County, NC, but as best I could tell he would be at least 20 miles away from where I was. That's based on rumor, speculation and conjecture. No way to be certain though.

I have wondered if maybe any hygienic genetics in your cutouts might have been bred out of the hive after a few years.
I attempted, rather vigorously, to maintain the genetic diversity of the TF stock I had. My stock had gone untreated since 2005. In 2008 I incorporated two MH queens into the mix (trying to increase hygenic behavior). While I kept them as part of the gene pool, I did not graft from those hives. In 2009 I bought out a guy in eastern TN. He had 5 hives that had gone untreated (and unmanaged, other than him "robbing honey" once a year) for 8 or 9 years. I continued to graft from my stock, and 1/2 of the TN stock. In 2010 I incorporated 1 VSH queen and 2 local "survivor" queens, both of which were advertised as maintained without treatments. I hadn't bred from either of them, as in 2011 I was still evaluating their genetic value.

Who knows what actually happened, but I highly doubt the hygienic (or whatever traits they had) were "bred out" of them.

Looking back on it, I wouldn't have done anything differently (except I would have treated as soon as the first round of hives started to collapse, rather than let the whole house of cards fall).

I'm not being critical of your decision because I treated this summer, too, with formic acid (MAQS) and later this year when my bees are broodless, with OA vapor. Last year I used concentrated thymol (Apiguard). I chose all three of these because they are "soft" treatments, unlike "hard" ones like Amitraz.
I hope your experiences are better than mine. When I went back to treatments, I started with Apiguard. I still had mite losses. The Apiguard helped, but didn't knock the mites back enough. I then switched to formic acid (MAQS). The mite kill was substantial, but the temp range is so picky I can't treat in July/August. Only in the spring. When I treated in the spring, I lost 15% of the queens that were treated. The remaining 85% of the hives shut down all brood rearing for a 3-4 week period. It KILLED my honey production, as a shut down of brood rearing in spring destroys the foraging force. This year I was weighing either going with OA or going with Amitraz. I went with Amitraz. Zero recorded residue in comb, and it's legal. Not what I wanted, but my hives are healthier than ever after using it.

I may go with an OA/Amitraz combo next year though. Jury's still out.

I wonder if the fact that several hives did that illustrates that taller hives with smaller boxes (8 or 5 frame boxes) may fare better in harsh conditions.
I've heard that mentioned several times. I have yet to see a shred of evidence supporting the theory though (other than anecdotal evidence).

It was mentioned in the last ABJ issue, and dismissed as "unfounded."
 
#15 ·
Don't confuse the correct statement that oxalic acid is classified as an organic acid in the chemical sense with the idea that it is an "organic" treatment, meaning acceptable in organic production certification.

I'm not being critical of your decision because I treated this summer, too, with formic acid (MAQS) and later this year when my bees are broodless, with OA vapor. Last year I used concentrated thymol (Apiguard). I chose all three of these because they are "soft" treatments, unlike "hard" ones like Amitraz.

I will do what I have to do keep my colonies alive and healthy. I also wouldn't want to be the source of the neighborhood mite-bomb that spreads the problem to other apiaries.

I'm glad to hear of your positive experience with OAV.

Enj.
 
#16 ·
Don't confuse the correct statement that oxalic acid is classified as an organic acid in the chemical sense with the idea that it is an "organic" treatment, meaning acceptable in organic production certification.
Enj.
what organic production certification are you referring to?
 
#17 ·
To sell food (and some fibers, like cotton) labeled as organically produced you must grow them using only certain growing techniques, chemicals, ferilizers, etc. The word certfied organic is a national standard, but the actual practices allowed under the certification varies from state to state.

Materials used for treating certified organic crops have a listing with OMRI (Organic Materials Research Institute) but each certifying state or organization has their own list of permissible materials. Small producers in some areas may self-certify if they keep good records, for the first few years. After that it's more complicate and expensive to get, and maintain, certified organic status.

Just because some particular chemical is OMRI-listed doesn't mean it is completely benign for the environment, or safe to use widely. Sometimes the OMRI chemicals are pretty vile (and unsafe for bees), but are allowable when no other chemical or cultural practice will suffice to make a crop.

I was just trying to point out that oxalic acid which is classified as a "organic acid" in chemistry (vs an inorganic acid) is NOT the same thing as using a chemical allowable for certified organic honey production. (I'm not even sure if there is such a thing as certified organic honey.) But for sure, some of the more agressive anti-mite chemicals could not be used in hives that were organically certified, even if there was no honey crop in the hive when particular chemical was in use. Similarly, as an example, you can't treat bean seeds with non-OMRI certified soil fungicides even though those fungicides wouldn't be on the beans themselves that were later harvested and marketed as food. Organic certification is about more than just limiting chemicals directly applied to the food crops. It's about how the crops were grown, in what type of environment, with a limited input of precisely spelled-out practices and allowable materials.

One thing I am sure of though, is that without formal certification as organically produced by some outside agency you can't use that phrase on your product. You could say it was produced without chemicals, or naturally raised, or pure and natural, etc., just not "Certified Organic Honey" unless you met those standards (whatever they are in your certifying area.)

Enj.
 
#18 ·
I understand the organic acid classification and point you made about it.

My question relates to the organic production certification, and I'm not sure either if there is such
a thing as certified organic honey or organically certified hives but I'm pretty sure there is not.

I am familiar though with certified naturally grown, CNG , and Oxalic acid is allowable under their guidelines.
clyde
 
#19 ·
"Several hives "chimneyed" because it was so cold and never broke cluster. They moved straight up one side of the hive (leaving honey in their wake) reached the top and starved."

I wonder if the fact that several hives did that illustrates that taller hives with smaller boxes (8 or 5 frame boxes) may fare better in harsh conditions.
 
#22 ·
i'm just pragmatic enough to not say that i would never consider organic treatments, but there are enough examples out there proving that the right stock in the right locations with the right management can thrive off treatments, so i'll continue to give tf every reasonable opportunity. i am encouraged by some of the findings presented in randy oliver's latest articles regarding the return of vigor in unmanaged colonies and local adaptation.

to be fair i've always thought ipm made a lot of sense and is what i would consider had i not lucked into some bees that were already demonstrating resistance and survival off treatments, but of course there's no guarantee that they always will.

i'm nowhere near throwing in the towel yet, but just in case do you happen to know where i can get a good oa vaporizer? :)

fwiw, the ranks of tf folks in my area are increasing.
 
#24 ·
there are six that i know of sk, and only myself and my supplier (who started tf in 1996) would qualify for the more than three years experience. one is coming up on her third winter, two their second winter, and one his first winter.

when things slow down this winter i want to track down some of the other keepers that use this supplier to find out whether they are treating or not and with what kind of results. i hope to get us all loosely networked so that we can share information, swap queens, ect.
 
#27 ·
i hope to get us all loosely networked so that we can share information, swap queens, ect.
That would be neat. I've always wanted to have a local queen rearing co-op, or genetics trading group. But the more I talk to those around me, either they are so far away that their climate differs and the genetic needs become so different, or what they select for is SO different I'm uncertain if it would work.

There is a strain of bees called "Wayne's Bees" that are local and (purportedly) can trace it's lineage back to 1995, without the use of any form of treatments for any type of mite. If you get a queen, you promise not to treat the colony that it goes into. They either make it (the Wayne's genetics were strong enough) or they don't (the Wayne's genetics were weaker than competing genetics). I've been trying for 3 years to get a Wayne's queen, to see if it's worthy of the hype, but I've been unsuccessful. The lack of availability (while I don't know ANYONE who is getting them locally) leads me to believe it's either mostly hype, or they aren't as vigorous as they should be.

There is another breeder locally that sells "treatment free" queens. According to him, 4 years ago a swarm "came from that grain silo over there." He housed it in a box, and aggressively split from there. Never treated. Now he has (roughly) 100 colonies. All in a 4 year time period. I got a few of his queens in the spring last year (8 if memory serves me). They did well until August, when mite counts from a 48 hour drop test just EXPLODED. I decided to treat (I know others would say not to, but I don't really care). They are good guys, but I think they have TF genetics just because they don't know any better, not that their management techniques are superior or anything. But whatever, if it works for them.

I always worried that mixing different "successful" tf queens in one apiary would destroy the success of any one colony. If one colony is successful at being tf in a certain region, it could be for a variety of reasons (Purdue's Ankle Biters, VSH genetics, MH genetics, a natural break in the brood cycle, front porch grooming behavior, greater immune system, immunity to certain viruses, who knows). If you have a successful hive that contains one of these (grooming behavior, for example) and you introduce a successful tf queen from a different region that was successful for a different reason (VSH, for example), the resulting offspring could contain both traits. That could make a super resistant stock, or it could make a susceptible stock, meaning not enough of EITHER trait passed on with enough concentration to make it effective against mites.

It always made me nervous and uncertain.
 
#25 ·
I spoke at length with a retired bee inspector about treatment/treatment free in northern ontario. I asked him if he knew any treatment free beekeepers. He said he knew of none that were making it through the third winter. The damage from mites and the viruses they carry seems to be accumulative and not necessarily in proportion to the mite numbers. Mite levels that were tolerable the first season may not be by the third.
 
#26 ·
Mite levels that were tolerable the first season may not be by the third.
that seems to be the recurring theme crofter. what gives me hope is that my supplier still has two of the five original feral cut outs he started with in 1996. the other way to look at that number at 30% overwintering loss (national average treated or not) any given colony statistically doesn't have much hope of making it past three years.

i'm still under 15% overwinter loss, but that may rise as my colonies get older. i think 30% is sustainable considering how easy it is to make increase to more than offset that, (while at the same time culling out those who didn't have the right stuff) even 50% is manageable, but probably would have me thinking ipm.
 
#28 ·
very interesting sk. i'm with you and this really is one big mystery wrapped in an enigma.

i have been giving some thought to the role hybridization plays and i was happy to see randy address it in his recent articles.

there has been a fairly strong beekeeping presence around here for many decades, and over those years folks have been and still are bringing in genetics of all available varieties. it's a pretty bee friendly environment here weather and forage wise so most colonies swarm in most years. over time the local population has become very 'mongrelized' and it's these hybrids that are proving themselves in the unmanaged state.
 
#29 ·
If your ultimate goal is to produce honey, usually for sale, I don't think treatment free will work for you. One of the methods of keeping mites down is brood breaks which result in smaller hives that produce less honey. The only way I can see it working for you is if you can get 8 dollars a pound for chemical free honey as opposed to 3 dollars a pound for tainted honey.
 
#46 ·
The only way I can see it working for you is if you can get 8 dollars a pound for chemical free honey as opposed to 3 dollars a pound for tainted honey.
My long time customers very well know, I have told them about not treating for years and years, what I do and how difficult it is to be TF. These same folks might still be asking me for a better price... Don´t count on that you will get any better price. TF is new for beekeepers, but it is totally unknown among people buying honey.
 
#30 ·
i'm gettin' almost 8 per lb. ace, usually sold out in advance and having to keep a waiting list. ended up with about 700 lbs last year with most of that coming from five hives. i'm not sure yet about this year, i've got about 300 lbs so far but over half of my supers are still on. we had a shortened spring here and more of my harvest will be fall honey than in previous years.

i'm working on a scheme whereby i perform an artificial swarm on every hive and sell the nuc, and then try to average three to four supers harvest from each parent colony (assuming good weather). i'm getting close to having enough drawn comb to pull that off for about 10 colonies. if it pans out that should net me $700 per hive between the honey and nuc sales.
 
#31 ·
Has anyone tried very quick comb replacement in comparison with keeping a majority of original comb. People doing a lot of splits accomplish comb change automatically. My thoughts about the three year barrier is that increase of virus titre in comb and frames could be a major component of the three year failure tendency.
 
#33 ·
believe it or not even the beeks using chemicals around are getting close to that price. being able to say that i don't use them or feed sugar may appeal to some customers, but i don't think it would be a deal breaker. in the end they have to trust whoever they are purchasing from as to the purity of the honey and i have had a reputation long before becoming a beekeeper of being trustworthy. :)

it's partly for the honey but it's mostly because i feel that i am doing right by the species that i'll go the extra mile to manage them off treatments unless it becomes unsustainable.
 
#34 ·
squarepeg: "over time the local population has become very 'mongrelized' and it's these hybrids that are proving themselves in the unmanaged state".
How did you come to know this?

squarepeg: "i feel that i am doing right by the species "
would "doing right" also include breeding these queens and making them available to others to see if they have what it takes in other locals? I'd pretty much know if a spring queen did or didn't have it by Thanksgiving.
clyde
 
#35 ·
squarepeg: "over time the local population has become very 'mongrelized' and it's these hybrids that are proving themselves in the unmanaged state".
How did you come to know this?
i'm only making an assumption clyde based in combination on what i know of the history of beekeeping in my area, the history of the stock my supplier has, my experience with this stock, and the research on ferals cited in randy's articles. it makes good enough sense for me to adopt it as a working hypothesis, but that's all it is.

squarepeg: "i feel that i am doing right by the species "
would "doing right" also include breeding these queens and making them available to others to see if they have what it takes in other locals? I'd pretty much know if a spring queen did or didn't have it by Thanksgiving.
clyde
i've been asked for queens from folks in different locals and i have talked to the breeder about stepping up production. i have a couple of beeks in neighboring states that have put orders in for nucs in the spring, and my thinking is that it would be better to gradually seed them closer going in all directions from here and see how they do.

frankly i would be very surprised if a queen sent to you in new york would produce a colony that would perform as good as bees that are already acclimated there. not only that but after the queen is replaced by her daughter which then mates with your drones you'll have an entirely different colony anyway.

(the other part of the equation is that we are not using syrup and i don't know how much or how little that has to do with their success. some areas may not have enough flow to allow for a decent harvest without feeding back syrup).

sorry to repeat, but these considerations are explained very well in randy's articles and he does a good job laying out the scientific basis for them. as far as comparing these bees to others we will be sending queens to baton rouge next spring where precise quantitative testing can be done.
 
#36 ·
all well and good.

I'm using myself (and location) as an example only.
Maybe a 7 month long observation of these queens in another local is all that is needed to see if their mite hardiness is transferable. 6-12 of these queens each in a spring nuc (april) eliminates acclimation, and syrup. Here, we routinely make spring nucs using purchased queens, then move them into 10 frame boxes with supers for honey flow. Some of these are good queens, some aren't. It's what we have come to expect. Do the same with these TF bees.
Manage them correctly and the daughter queen issue becomes insignificant.
By August I'd have plenty of visible evidence as to whether they had a chance to make the fall flow. By end of November they would either be dead or had a shot at surviving the winter. 7 month's to see if they could handle mites TF, that's it.
No acclimation necessary, no syrup, managed to minimize swarming so no daughter queens.
Get them out there, pretty easy to make bees, right?:)
Let's see what you're talking about and what these bees may have that other bees do not.
I'm keeping it simple, Am I missing something?
 
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