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Ryanwilliamson121
12-09-2019, 02:55 PM
This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

https://ryanwilliamson121.wixsite.com/bees

ifixoldhouses
12-09-2019, 03:39 PM
nice presentation, but I don't believe any of it. It only messes up their sense of smell for ten minutes and masks the alarm pheromone, which keeps us from getting stung. I doubt a hole in a log could hold more bees than a Langstroth hive, there may be a few, but no one is controlling their swarming behavior. I have never heard of the smoke tainting the honey, but I am a first year beekeeper.

Cloverdale
12-09-2019, 04:01 PM
Read up on it. Smoke is fine just don’t over smoke.

psm1212
12-09-2019, 04:25 PM
From the link:

"Next time you go to the store and purchase honey, please make sure it is organic because that ensures that the bees have never been smoked and the honey has been collected in the safest way possible for the bees."

Where is this organic honey that you buy?

JTGaraas
12-09-2019, 04:45 PM
psm1212 - very subtle; excellent educational moment!

Tennessee's Bees LLC
12-09-2019, 06:37 PM
Well to each his own but I would love to see some.organic honey harvested from a 5 deep hive with no smoke and no beesuits.

couesbro
12-09-2019, 06:56 PM
Well to each his own but I would love to see some.organic honey harvested from a 5 deep hive with no smoke and no beesuits.

I think if they would do this it should be on a rainy day just before sunset. I'll bring the umbrellas and pay to watch.

ifixoldhouses
12-09-2019, 07:05 PM
There's no such thing as organic honey, bees can potentially forage up to 7 miles around, how could one guarantee, no pesticides or fertilizers were used in that 50-60,000 acres diameter?

Cloverdale
12-09-2019, 07:37 PM
And how would smoke make honey not organic?

Riverderwent
12-09-2019, 08:21 PM
This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

https://ryanwilliamson121.wixsite.com/beesRyan, Immanuel Kant said: "No one can compel me to be happy in accordance with his conception of the welfare of others, for each may seek his happiness in whatever way he sees fit, so long as he does not infringe upon the freedom of others to pursue a similar end which can be reconciled with the freedom of everyone else within a general workable law — i.e. he must accord to others the same right as he enjoys himself."

Many of the founders of the United States understood the importance of individual liberties particularly in the face of the "Leviathon". You may smoke bees or not smoke bees as you wish. I will do likewise. To discourage the use of smoke or rail against it is one thing, perhaps a good thing, perhaps not. To ban others from smoking bees is an altogether different thing.

On another note, I've used sugar water, and scented water, and smoke, and nothing. For the little feral mutts that live in my boxes, smoke saves more bees lives than other methods. I also cold smoke cheese and hot smoke ribs, so maybe we're different. That's okay. You be you. Cheers, and have a joyous holy season.

A Novice
12-09-2019, 08:22 PM
It would seem to me that smoke would not make honey be non-organic, as long as the trees from which the wood that's used in the smoker or whatever other material you using in the smoker was organically raised. I like lilac wood as the smokiest wood I have ever seen, and since nobody uses pesticides or herbicides or even chemical fertilizers on their lilac trees, I can pretty much guarantee that my smoke is organic.

However, I think it is a good idea to avoid using smoke in the honey supers, and to use smoke judiciously in the brood chambers.

Using a little smoke definitely calms the bees down, and minimizes disruption to the hive. It is also helpful to move bees so they don't get squashed, which is always a problem.

I have never been able to taste smoke in the honey, even on those occasions when I probably haven't been as careful as some other people might be to avoid smoke in honey supers. I'm not sure how Smokey honey would taste. That smoke flavor is actually pretty popular with a lot of things, not sure it would add much to the flavor of honey.

I am just a novice, though, so don't get to enamored of my opinions.

bushpilot
12-09-2019, 09:09 PM
I use smoke in order to minimize the harm to the bees under my care.

msl
12-09-2019, 11:19 PM
From the link

These are what beekeepers use to hold the bees safely. The bees leave the hive to collect pollen and return to make honey. These manufactured hives don't contain as many bees as a hive you would find in nature.
odd "fact" indeed with no source

My understanding is a manufactured hive often has many, many, many more bees then natural do to swarm prevention management and a volume many time more then "natural" ... that's how honey crops are made, please refer to the works of Tom Seeley to compare natural vs managed hive volumes

RW welcome here, how can we help you next project have improved research sources ? your 1st one missed the mark a bit do to confirmation bias, and maby the internet
moving forward if you can't find it on google scholar, the likely hood of its reliability becomes in question

Riverderwent
12-09-2019, 11:26 PM
RW welcome here,Plus 1

Oldtimer
12-10-2019, 02:11 AM
Ryan i would be interested to know how old you are.

You have laid your project out in an interesting way, you have also done some research, and supplied references. If the person who is grading your work knows nothing about bees i think you may score well.

However there is a problem. Which is, a number of your facts are wrong. This is not your fault, it is because the sources you have referenced are poorly informed, and you have used their information without cross checking their accuracy.

But you have done well coming here to seek further information. However getting the truth, will mean you will have to re write your assignment, and will not be able to back your point, being that smoking bees should be banned.

Way I see it you got 2 choices. Present your assignment as is, and you may score well if the person grading it knows nothing about beekeeping. Or, change it somewhat. Here's a couple facts if you go the change it route.

A langstroth hive will typically hold a lot more bees than an average wild hive. Langstroth hives are designed to be expandable to build big bee populations and maximise the honey crop. This is not a problem for your assignment you can simply re write that part and it will not change the general thrust of your article.

But about smoking. You are correct, it masks the bees ability to detect alarm pheremones. In practise, this has the effect of keeping the bees calm. A hive that stays calm during the beekeeper visit will come through in better shape than a hive that gets riled up. The calm hive is simply re assembled by the beekeeper after the visit, and the bees just get on with their work as though nothing happened. Much better for the bees. Spraying sugar water, and other methods, work, but no other method works as well as smoke.

Unfortunately, stating that, is going to destroy the thrust of your article, that smoking bees should be banned.

I have a suggestion though, an alternative point to the article. There are a few possibilities but here is one. Since you discuss organic honey, should any honey be labelled organic? Because here's the thing. A beekeeper may apply organic principles to how he cares for his bees. But how does he know that somewhere on another property, his bees visited plants that had been contaminated with something somebody sprayed?

If that point doesn't work for you there could be others, but if you think of one, run it past us first so we can fact check for you before you go to the trouble of writing it up.

jim lyon
12-10-2019, 04:16 AM
You’re fortunate to have received some excellent and well written advice here from some really good and experienced beekeepers, Ryan. Read and learn with an open mind. Best of luck on your assignment.

Michael Bush
12-10-2019, 05:49 AM
>This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

I think too many people have watched "The Bee Movie". Beekeepers don't asphyxiate the bees with smoke. Just a bit of smoke in the air calms them a lot and saves the lives of a lot of bees who otherwise would get defensive and die stinging the beekeepers suit or gloves. We have records in cave paintings that people have been smoking bees for several thousand years at least for good reasons. It saves the lives of bees and the discomfort of of the beekeeper.

That's ignoring the erroneous concept of people banning things that they don't understand.

GregV
12-10-2019, 08:55 AM
This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

https://ryanwilliamson121.wixsite.com/bees

Misdirection based on misinformation.

Too many mis-educated educators.

Cloverdale
12-10-2019, 09:11 AM
Misdirection based on misinformation.

Too many mis-educated educators.

Yes, I agree with you, it is tiresome. But the upside is they will eventually find out for themselves and be better beekeepers, or they’ll give it up.

clyderoad
12-10-2019, 09:16 AM
Misdirection based on misinformation.
Too many mis-educated educators.

I'm overwhelmed by the irony here !!

GregV
12-10-2019, 09:29 AM
I'm overwhelmed by the irony here !!

My kid in the class of middle-school Geography (!!!!!) is studying Israeli-Palestinian politics (what on Earth???) INSTEAD of the most fundamental, basic concepts of global climate and ecology (oh, .... and general global mapping concepts, for bees' sake - that is what the Geography is - "The Study of the Earth").

That is called - mis-education.
I want to scream.
I should run for the local school board (instead of venting on BS).

Yes - lots and lots, and lots of irony.

GregV
12-10-2019, 09:49 AM
Yes, I agree with you, it is tiresome. But the upside is they will eventually find out for themselves and be better beekeepers, or they’ll give it up.

Unfortunately, we are looking at a more general issue here.
This is just one indication of the same.
Backyard beekeeping is peanuts (smoke or no smoke).

Michael Bush
12-10-2019, 10:38 AM
Smoking bees:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lh77qi1HFM

AHudd
12-10-2019, 11:21 AM
RW,
On your website, I think you mean pheromones, not hormones.
Also, bees do indeed collect pollen, but in order to make honey they need to also collect nectar.

Many people do not use smoke at all to collect honey. Many use bee escape boards, etc.

I suggest visiting a bee supply co. website. A lot can be gleaned from learning about the tools we use. Dadant or MannLake are two of the larger ones.

Good luck,
Alex

Biermann
12-10-2019, 11:21 AM
Ryan, first I welcome you to this forum, but then I have to say: now you take the liberty to mess-up a whole school class or more? Shame on you! Get educated first before you make statements. Some very good info in the replies to your thread and I hope you use them. Also, if you do what you preach, try the all out organic method of beekeeping: no close, no tools, no smoke and work only ten hives in mid summer with four supers on. You will be converted very quickly.

Seasons Greetings to you!

Oldtimer
12-10-2019, 11:55 AM
Misdirection based on misinformation.

Too many mis-educated educators.


I'm overwhelmed by the irony here !!LOL Clyde :D

clyderoad
12-10-2019, 01:02 PM
LOL Clyde :D

You are keenly perceptive ;)

Charlie B
12-11-2019, 05:10 PM
Another ridiculous premise guided on baseless opinions.

rkereid
12-11-2019, 05:29 PM
I don't see any evidence, data, or experience to back up the assumption. RyanW121- Have you been around bees to notice the problems that are alleged?

cervus
12-11-2019, 06:17 PM
Misdirection based on misinformation.
Too many mis-educated educators.

I'm overwhelmed by the irony here !!

I see your snark scope is still sighted-in...amazing. Is that a NJ thing?

Murdock
12-11-2019, 06:37 PM
I sometimes use MEADOW MUFFINS (dried cow turd) for smoker fuel... does that make my smoke organic? There is NO way you can assure bees have not visited flowers that have never had pesticide on them so you cannot PROVE organic honey exists. If you use enough smoke that neighbors call the fire department then you may mask odors enough that the bees are a little confused but that goes away pretty quickly. Bees orient to the hive entrance so they do not get lost.

A Novice
12-11-2019, 06:45 PM
My kid in the class of middle-school Geography (!!!!!) is studying Israeli-Palestinian politics (what on Earth???) INSTEAD of the most fundamental, basic concepts of global climate and ecology (oh, .... and general global mapping concepts, for bees' sake - that is what the Geography is - "The Study of the Earth").

That is called - mis-education.
I want to scream.


What do you expect in the PRM? (People's Republic of Madison)

I graduated there in '92. It was bad then.

Jerryalberte
12-11-2019, 06:49 PM
This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

https://ryanwilliamson121.wixsite.com/bees

find something else to do.. learn to lay bricks no smoke there

leww37334
12-11-2019, 07:12 PM
Zero data to support claims simply anecdotal statements

GregV
12-11-2019, 09:49 PM
What do you expect in the PRM? (People's Republic of Madison)

I graduated there in '92. It was bad then.

It is a suburb, not even the Mad-proper.
The same.
I, however, will say - this is a much more general problem, not just PRM's.
Lack of consistent, general, fact-based education at the basic school level is overwhelming (of course, such edu can be boring, too hard, and usually not sexy).

drummerboy
12-12-2019, 03:55 AM
Funny thread :) The more BeeKs chiming in the more confused we all become, such is life.

On using smoke; 2 rules I follow, KISS (Keep It Simple) and "Less is usually more".... effective ;)

Personally, I like using dried sumac flowers which we've been collecting for a couple months now...it was a good sumac year, but have used all kinds of smoke materials over the years....only need a little smoke in most cases, unless we're talking about commercial beekeeping which is another animal pursuit imo.

Happy Holidays to all you beeks and friends of beeks!!

Michael Bush
12-12-2019, 05:44 AM
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessmoke.htm

crofter
12-12-2019, 07:13 AM
It appears that Ryan has not been back to the site since his join date.

ifixoldhouses
12-12-2019, 09:37 AM
He should make a new subject, "ban guitar players from using picks":) The smoker is just as important to a beekeeper, Bees are treated very well, as opposed to the meat livestock industry.

MarkSaratoga
12-12-2019, 12:28 PM
Ryan,

For extra credit either add what the bee owns or get rid of the apostrophe in bee's.

A pedant

:)

clyderoad
12-12-2019, 02:04 PM
I see your snark scope is still sighted-in...amazing. Is that a NJ thing?

Realists are a dying breed, I see.
As far as a NJ thing? (can't believe you are going there, but...)
You'll have to ask someone from NJ if there are many realists there, I've only been there a half dozen times in my life and
that was mostly to pass through to some where else.

C'est la vie.

AHudd
12-12-2019, 02:37 PM
Ryan,

For extra credit either add what the bee owns or get rid of the apostrophe in bee's.

A pedant

:)

I don't think they mark down their grades for that sort of thing any more, except in English class, maybe.

Alex

roddo27846
12-12-2019, 03:14 PM
This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

https://ryanwilliamson121.wixsite.com/bees

Wow, Ryan, you have really brought out the responses. I keep bees without smoking them and I really don't see how smoking them would do them any good. I do smoke myself when I am around them to keep them off of me which I hope doesn't hurt them.

I don't now how old you are and my grade for your assignment would have to be based partly on that. You do not argue for actually banning the smoking of bees in the assignment so most of the boo birds on here probably haven't looked at it. For the most part I agree with what you say but the writing could be better, Keep at it and you will improve. I used to be a writing teacher.

As for the boo birds on here, perhaps they don't know that the guy who invented the hives they use would certainly agree with everything your assignment says about smoking bees and then some. Lorenzo Langstroth was his name and I would certainly like to hear the ones abusing you on here debate the topic with him. That would be something.

Lou from Export
12-12-2019, 07:59 PM
This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

https://ryanwilliamson121.wixsite.com/bees
Honestly ! --- I will say do what you want --- Leave me alone ! -- But WOW !

unstunghero
12-12-2019, 08:52 PM
I sometimes use MEADOW MUFFINS (dried cow turd) for smoker fuel... does that make my smoke organic? There is NO way you can assure bees have not visited flowers that have never had pesticide on them so you cannot PROVE organic honey exists. If you use enough smoke that neighbors call the fire department then you may mask odors enough that the bees are a little confused but that goes away pretty quickly. Bees orient to the hive entrance so they do not get lost.

Cow turd, cow pattie or cow pie. Horse turd, meadow muffin.

Murdock
12-12-2019, 11:42 PM
I stand corrected! I really don't know what dropped it but it works pretty well. The word ORGANIC drives me crazy.

JaiPea
12-15-2019, 03:28 PM
Wow, Ryan, ...I keep bees without smoking them and I really don't see how smoking them would do them any good.

Do you think that just maybe, you can't see because you haven't tried it? You are expressing an opinion with no foundation.

Others wrote that smoke calmed the bees and the 'good' was that fewer bees died from stinging the beek, and fewer bees died when the hives were re-assembled. That translates to smoke being 'good' for the colony and 'good' for the beek. To claim otherwise requires that you ignore centuries of lore and innumerable scientific and anecdotal treatises.


As for the boo birds on here, perhaps they don't know that the guy who invented the hives they use would certainly agree with everything your assignment says about smoking bees and then some. Lorenzo Langstroth was his name and I would certainly like to hear the ones abusing you on here debate the topic with him. That would be something.

And now you are making claims with no foundation...

Lorenzo Langstroth would definitely NOT agree because he was NOT opposed to smoking bees. He liked sugar water and he used smoke, but was judicious in the kind of smoke.

On p29 of the Hive and the Honeybee Bee Keeper's Manual Langstroth warned against using tobacco smoke: "Apiarians have, for many years, employed the smoke of tobacco for subduing their bees. It deprives them, at once, of all dispositions to sting, but it ought never to be used for such a purpose. If the construction of the hives will not permit the bees to be sprinkled with sugar water, the smoke of burning paper or rags will answer every purpose, and the bees will not be likely to resent it; whereas when they recover from the effect of the tobacco, they not unfrequently remember, and in no very gentle way, the operator who administered the nauseous dose."

Langstroth only makes positive references to smoke, as on p200 where he wrote that the beekeeper "will find that unless he uses smoke, the bees will be almost, if not quite unmanageable."

I challenge you to find anywhere in the 384 pages of the Bee Keeper's Manual that Lorenzo Langstroth bad mouths the use of smoke.

Who is the boo bird here?

JaiPea
12-15-2019, 04:10 PM
This is a class assignment that I made discussing why we should ban the use of smoke on bees.

https://ryanwilliamson121.wixsite.com/bees

Hi Ryan,

Methinks you wrote to Bee Source to get a rise out of beekeepers..., and you succeeded.

You have a future writing for the National Enquirer: Verity is not a requirement, inflammatory and distorted facts sells newspapers.

PHOTO Caption: "Beekeepers use these devices to smoke the bees to collect honey. But these smokers are actually very destructive to a bees hormone sensors and taints the honey being made."

#1) bees do not have hormone sensors, they react to pheromones
#2) destructive is inflammatory and untrue, the source says 'interferes'

a) https://www.beeculture.com/harvesting-honey/

"If you smoke the full super too much, the honey will taste of smoke (antidotal experience)"

To be pedantic, it should be anecdotal. Capped combs are protected by a layer of wax, so no smoke enters. If you are heavily smoking uncapped combs then you are doing two things wrong 'smoking too much' and removing uncapped comb.

b) https://savannahbee.com/blog/what-is-a-bee-smoker

"...smoke interferes with the honey bees signal reception system."

"I will never go without my trusted friend the smoker again."

c) https://honestbeekeeper.com/522/calm-bees-without-smoke/

Nothing here badmouths smoking, it talks about ways to reduce the use of smoking.


PHOTO caption: "These are what beekeepers use to hold the bees safely. The bees leave the hive to collect pollen and return to make honey. These manufactured hives don't contain as many bees as a hive you would find in nature."

None of the above sources said anything like "manufactured hives don't contain as many bees as a hive you would find in nature".


ABOUT: "make sure it is organic because that ensures that the bees have never been smoked and the honey has been collected in the safest way possible for the bees."

Organic has nothing to do with smoking or the safest way possible.


I don't know that congratulations are in order, but you certainly pulled many legs...

What are you going to send Bee Source on April 1?

It is six days since you posted, are you ever going to respond to any of the previous commenters or are you merely reading in glee?

A Novice
12-15-2019, 05:47 PM
I suspect, since Ryan has made exactly 1 post to date, that he didn't stick around to read all of our replies.

More likely, he took our general disdain for his not very sophisticated research as confirmation we are all "bad" beekeepers,

From his writing, he is probably not older than 12 or 14, I would think.

Beebeard
12-18-2019, 06:39 PM
Click bait. Happens around here when things are getting quiet and ad revenues drop.

Oldtimer
12-22-2019, 01:17 AM
EDIT

AR1
12-23-2019, 02:44 AM
On p29 of the Hive and the Honeybee Bee Keeper's Manual Langstroth warned against using tobacco smoke: "Apiarians have, for many years, employed the smoke of tobacco for subduing their bees. It deprives them, at once, of all dispositions to sting, but it ought never to be used for such a purpose. If the construction of the hives will not permit the bees to be sprinkled with sugar water, the smoke of burning paper or rags will answer every purpose, and the bees will not be likely to resent it; whereas when they recover from the effect of the tobacco, they not unfrequently remember, and in no very gentle way, the operator who administered the nauseous dose."

I sometimes use tobacco leaves in the smoker, without any evident trouble. I have read that the nicotine can harm bees, but in the small dose of a smoker it doesn't appear to.