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What must I do or not do?

19K views 55 replies 19 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
Hi All,

I am new to beekeeping, and wanting to start keeping bees! If I start with package bees, purchase from Walter T. Kelley, and wanting to go the treatment free route, what must I do or not do?

Surely these bees will be coming from a bee yard that treat! What will be my success rate of keeping them healthy and alive? :scratch:

Thank you for your help and looking forward for your reply!

Thai
 
#2 ·
Wow.

Not sure if the whole of the internet contains the storage space needed to hold all the answers you seek new beek.

The answer is long, complicated, and varies from day to day in the beekeeping world.

First thing you need to do is make sure your vision of success is in tune with the realities of beekeeping today. If you can do that you will be on the right track for your first step.

Secondly, Read here and elsewhere voraciously. Cross check the advice, apply, and revise. Repeat as needed.:applause:
 
#5 ·
As I've read it on this forum, the majority of hives that get started from packages and not treated, end up succumbing to mites.

Can't give you the full answer on what to do because nobody knows what that is. But here's a few pointers. Some bees have been bred towards mite tolerance, and some have not. If you don't want to treat you will need bees bred for that, not a breed susceptable to mites. So at some point after your package is in the hive and up and running, find somewhere to buy a queen that has been bred for mite resistance and requeen your hive with it.

Secondly, treatment residue in a hive is thought to aggravate mite infestation. Most comb foundation contains the residue of old treatments. So to avoid having old treatment residue in your hive right from the git go, you need to either source treatment free wax that has been made into comb foundation, or just block treatment free wax to paint onto plastic foundation, or don't use foundation and allow the bees to build their own comb without any foundation. To do that, you need to research "natural comb", to find out how to get the bees to build the comb where you want it, ie, in the frames.

Those two things, the bee breed, and a treatment residue free hive, to my mind would be the basic starting points for someone wanting to be treatment free.

Realise that no matter what you do, your hive may just get bigger and bigger mite numbers till it gets wiped out so a treatment free beekeeper must be prepared for the possibility of dissapointment. That, after all, is why most people treat, if they didn't have to, they wouldn't.

You may decide to use manipulations that are not supposed to be treatments, such as for example removing drone brood from the hive and destroying it. This helps because the mites are especially attracted to drone brood so you can get a lot of mites out of the hive by doing that, without using any chemicals.

Just get started, and keep reading. One thing I've found though, is what one person finds works for them, may not work for someone else. There is no way or nothing you can do, to guarantee you will be able to keep treatment free bees alive for the long haul.
 
#8 ·
1) start with more than one hive, three would increase your chances of success greatly.
2) join your local bee guild/group if possible and go to their meetings, ask questions, make friends, eat cookies.
3) put your name on a local swarm capture list if available and start with free swarms instead of $ packages.
4) if you have time, skills, inclination, free wood, tolerance for frustration, build your own hives.

just my 2 cents.
 
#9 ·
If you're looking for information on keeping bees without treatments:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

If you want the same in the form of a book it's available from the typical online sellers, but it's all free on the website. If you want a good beginner's book on treatment free beekeeping, it's hard to beat "The Complete Idiots Guide to Beekeeping". If you want more in depth online reading:

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/

Plus you can read all the old posts on the treatment free forum here on beesource.

That should keep you busy for a while...
 
#10 ·
itbG, welcome to beekeeping and to beesource.

just my .02:

whether or not your bees will survive and/or thrive under your stewardship depends on many factors above and beyond whether or not you pursue the treatment free route.

it looks like you are doing your homework and that is great. hopefully you will be able to connect with other beekeepers in your area who will be willing to share their their successes and failures with you. you will hear it said that beekeeping is 'local', and it's true that different approaches are better suited for some areas and not others.

unlike you, i did not have the luxury of planning out and deciding in advance how i was going to approach beekeeping. i 'inherited' the task after the passing away of the elderly beekeeper had located a few hives on my property. needless to say, i got the 'crash course'.

as far as following any route, i'll have to say that i don't prescribe to any certain approach, but rather i am trying to fashion my own approach based on a combination of researching and trying things out.

if you have been doing some reading here on beesource, you have undoubtedly discovered a number of first year beekeepers that took the treatment free route, ended up losing their bees, and have decided to take a different route.

most colonies that collapse these days do so from varroa mite infestation. i have been lucky so far, in that i have not treated for mites, and have only lost one colony in three years from them. the reason i have been lucky is that i haven't been checking for mites, because i didn't know i should have been.

i believe i can continue to avoid mite treatments by identifying the colonies that get dangerously infested before they collapse, killing their queen, dusting as many mites as i can off of the remaining bees, and using the remaining bees to make up new starter colonies with a new queen.

keeping bees treatment free is an admirable goal, and i agree with most of what the very reputable treatment free contributors here on beesource recommend. if you choose that route, you should decide in advance what you will do if you end up with a colony that is perishing from mite infestation.

and this is where i deviate from what is recommended, and that is just letting the colony die. the rationale is that bees that die are not genetically worthy to be propagated and it is better to let them go.

to me, it seems a waste of good resources, not to mention the cost and the effort involved in getting a colony of bees established. the other problem i have with letting a colony die is that it becomes a source for the spread of the problem to any nearby colonies that will go into that hive and rob it out.

the one thing i wish i would have done differently is to have learned how to do a proper mite count from the beginning.

good luck.
 
#12 ·
Hey thank you everyone!

I am buying an active bee hive from a local beek and starting with a 3lbs package. The local beek however treats his, so, I was wondering if I can slowly wean the bees to treatment free, by intermingling foundationless frames between the already drawn comb.

Also for the package bees, should I feed the bees syrup and pollen subs, at the beginning to give them a running start you know to acclimate them a little and just leave them honey in the fall?
 
#13 ·
you are welcome, and you will find a lot of great folks here who are willing to help, even though they may not agree on everything. in the end, you will have to try things and see what happens.

if the active hive has been treated preventively with terramycin and/or tylosin for american foul brood i would not buy it. i started out with some active hives that were treated this way and when i didn't treat them the afb showed up in one, and it had to be burned.

if the active hive has only been treated for mites, it would be good to know if it was treated with synthetic miticides that build up in the wax vs. organic acids that do dont build up in the wax. i would not want to buy a hive that had been treated with the synthetic miticides. i'm not sure that adding foundationless frames would wean them.

i suggest learning how to do an alchohol wash for mites. the most important time to check them is in the summer, after you harvest the spring honey. at this point in the season you have time to take action if needed or let them be if no action is needed.
 
#14 ·
You'll need to feed the package if there is not enough nectar being collected at the time, as they will have no stores. Since you are also getting bees from a local beekeeper, he will have local knowledge and know if feeding is needed. But usually with a package, you feed, they can starve very quickly.
 
#15 ·
I suggest buying at least one nuc of Russian bees from as close to your area as possible. They're extremely hygienic and resistant to mites. Another option would be buying a nuc of bees with hygienic behavior from close to where you live, so that they're more adapted to your environment than someplace far away, and/or a local nuc from a treatment-free beekeeper. Find a mentor you trust. They're invaluable. Join your local bee club and attend a Bee School if they have one in your area. Every little bit helps, and this forum is really valuable, too!
 
#16 ·
Hey Tom, are Russian bees more aggressive compare to other bees? My local bee keeping association beeks are rude people, they didn't response to any of my emails and I emailed all their people! Plus, they're all about treatments! "If you want bees you better treat!" was what my friend told me when she went to bee school. So I think I will stay away from them.

Here is my thought on beekeeping! If I can provide the bees with a clean and productive environment they will be fine. It's the same when I started keeping poultry, the majority of the people wants the medicated feed! Why? Because they have very bad condition, overcrowding, unclean water, etc. And most of the time medicated feed was all our feed store provided. Well, I never had a problem with chicks dying or getting sick chickens and I didn't use medicated feed! I think the same principle apply here! Wouldn't you agree? Thoughts?
 
#17 ·
Hey Tom, are Russian bees more aggressive compare to other bees?
Not at all, in my experience. Just the same as Italians as far as I can tell. Someone may have a different experience. But if you tick off the bees, they'll make you pay. If you're kind and gentle they will be, too, has been my experience. Take it nice and slow, don't oversmoke, and enjoy the bees.
 
#23 ·
sqaurepeg was talking about my local beeks association people radar, not the people here!

Tom, I have been to Michael Bush website there is a lot of info there! And thankful for the Russian bee recommendation, didn't even know their mite resistance!

Well guys I am going to give the Russian a try and my local beek that's selling me his bees say he just use MITE AWAY QUICK STRIP, should I purchase his hive? Said he uses crisco and powder sugar mix for something else too, but I forgot?

Michael Bush thankful for doing us newbeeks a favor too!
 
#26 ·
You might want to try checking out wolfcreekbees.com. They raise mutts. Here is what they wrote in their Home page: "Our stock is derived from the wild feral stock of the Duck River Basin. We add a little Russian genetics, so that the bees will fly at 38 degrees if the sun is shining and the wind is not blowing. Some Italian genetics are added for honey production. The gentleness and winter handiness of the bees is acheived from the addition of Carniolan genetics. The result is a gentle bee that is a good honey producer."
And their philosophy states: "Our breeder stock has proven to be survivors with a natural resistance to the Tracheal and Varroa mite. They must also be top quality brood and honey producers. One of the advantages of having such a variety of large genetic diversity is that studies have shown that they produce 30% more brood comb than a straight line genetic bee.

We have never used toxic chemicals on our bees. For the last seven years we have used natural oils to strengthen the bees immune system. About that time we switched to the 4.9mm bee and other organic practices."

Anyway, I bought a package from them last Spring and, so far, they're still alive. So I'm happy with their bees.
 
#27 ·
I've had there bees for 6 years. They are hearty, disease free, and great honey producers, also very gentle. BTW, I called John 2 winters ago and told him mine were flying at 35 degrees. :applause: Also as a side note, have never seen any mites or evidence of mites. :scratch:
 
#29 ·
Hi Beeman -
I'm with Square - pretty awesome results!
You have run hives for 6 years continously and not ever seen a varroa mite with no treatments? Are you doing tests for mites or just observing for them as you work. Either way an untreated hive from purchased stock having zero varroa mites for 6 years is pretty incredible and sounds like some pretty top line breeding. We are on the other end of the spectrum looking at bees more successfully managing higher mite populations. I'm also wondering if you find dark (black) bees mixed in your population that would be common with the carni or the wild black german bee they speak of on wolfcreeks site. Ironically I was talking with my son about the "black german bees" which 15 years ago would be an indicator for wild bees here, and how they seem to have disappeared from our region completely a few years ago - along with much of the wild population of other strains. Have you purchased any of there queens?
 
#30 ·
Joel, Square,

You are right. I have been impressed with these little bees. I started out with 4.9 foundation from Brushy Mt and am switching to foundationless slowly. I use a sticky board to check for mites about 4 times a year but as of yet have not found any. It was funny when I got my first bees from WC I bought 11 packages & 9 of them absconded within 4 days, the other two did just fine. So I replaced those and everything has been fine since. Joel, yes I have seen many of those black german bees in these. 1 package I bought 3 years ago to increase my haives was all very dark brown and the queen was jet black. And yes I have bought his queens, they did just fine.

I'm not one who swears SC will cure evrything from mites to the debt crises, but I will say I believe SC along with careful breeding will go a long way to evening out the field. John's family has over 100 years of beekeeping experience and he is the type that does not think he knows it all. He is constantly studing & observing where he might improve his stock. As to losses, up until this year I had 1 hive die in 6 years due to my error, starved to death. This past year was a wash as I got sick early and was not able to work my bees at all this season. :( Next year looking better.:banana:
 
#32 ·
Beeman, Thanks for the filling us in more on wolfcreek! It's always cool to find these backwoods breeders who are doing things really right. Sounds like you are doing the right things and your testing methodolgy is pretty solid. I certainly will try a few of their queens this year (prices are very reasonable) and will look forward to giving them a try. I like their approach to picking a variety of stocks and using the best in their breeding operation, very similar to my thoughts on the subject. My experiances have made me a firm believer in these "dark german bees" from wild areas as when they were in this area and prevelant they were consistently a "different breed" and the most common we found in the hollow tree survivor types. We've had alot of wild bee space loss during the last 10 years due to the beeches dying out, attacks on the maples and now we are facing the scarlet ash borers and everyone is cutting them down to try and stem the tide before it gets a foot hold. I think it has contributed to the loss of those dark bees as I have never seen them in a wall or outside a tree for that matter, except as a swarm.

I was down for a season once in the early 1990's - it's tough for us nature's boy's (and girls) to be not out. Good luck in 2013 and thanks for the info!
 
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