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Micro-breeders

19K views 58 replies 24 participants last post by  dewbeehoney 
#1 ·
I think one of the best things to come out of the Sacramento conference was the idea of raising local queens. The term "micro-breeder" was raised, kind of like those "micro-brewers" who brew local beer with the time, patience and specialities that the mega-suds cannot replicate.

But several speakers also noted that one of the defining characteristics of high quality queens was the necessity of leaving the newly mated queen in the mating nuc for 3 to 4 weeks so she can continue to lay eggs and develop her queen scent. This also gives you a chance to test her, or at least observe her egg laying pattern.

As a micro-breeder, I would have the time and I can easily afford to tie up my equipment for that length of time. I wouldn't have to "mate and bank" my queens for a quick turnover of the mating nuc.

Grant
Jackson, MO http://www.25hives.homestead.com
 
#3 ·
Allowing the queen to lay for 4 weeks pior to picking them also improves acceptance. We are going to do that with all our queens this year. It will slow us down alittle bit, but I think it will improve our queens alot:).
 
#4 ·
I wouldnt be so quick to say that you would not need to turn over the mating nucs so quick. Depending on how many times you graft. If, for example, you are running a quenless cell builder, do you graft once, put a queen back in (or leave a queen cell) or do you take the queen cells out and do another round of cells??? Hard to say.
 
#5 ·
I, too, have heard the idea of 'micro-breeders' bandied about. I think, as AHB continue to advance into areas where many of the queen producers are, the idea of local breeders will grow. Its going to be difficult to find many arguments against it.
 
#7 ·
I am planning to do a small amount of queen breeding in the coming year. I also think of my plans as fitting the micro-breeder category. I fit into the hobbist category even more than the sideliner.

While I do plan to raise and test queens before sale, I was also planning to do some virgin queen and queen cells. Since I expect my customers to be 'local', I expect to do follow-up on performance and replace any inferior queens.

I think this approach will be key to the small operations offering local queens to the hobbist crowd.
 
#8 ·
beemandan writes:
Its going to be difficult to find many arguments against it.

tecumseh replies:
well perhaps you need to put your thinking hat back on for just a moment and/or try not to suck up too much marketing hype or sales fluff while your hat is off.

perhaps you should consider why green rearing has historically developed in some areas of the country and not others. after you ponder this for a while then consider the economic questions (fixed vs variable cost would be a good place to begin) that might suggest why micro breeder (if that ain't california manufactured marketing hype I would be quite surprised) has never worked in the past.***

I would suggest to you directly that the largest road block to making the 'micro breeder' idea viable is market timing of product (very large hurdle) and the maintance cost (smaller hurdle) associated with the hives used in supporting the queen rearing operation.

*** this is not meant to suggest to your that some of us will not continue to produce a few queens on our own or perhaps recognize how old existing patterns of doing business might be changing in some small way and then make plan to fill in the gaps.
 
#9 ·
I would suggest to you directly that the largest road block to making the 'micro breeder' idea viable is market timing of product (very large hurdle) and the maintance cost (smaller hurdle) associated with the hives used in supporting the queen rearing operation.
This is absolutley correct! Once one gets the rearing/production system down,
marketing the product to cover production cost in time/materials is difficult
with conventional beekeeping traditions. Teaching beekeepers that
requeening in the Late Summer/Early Fall is a feasible management
practice, along with overwinter nucs with fine newly mated and tested
queens, will help to foster the "Micro Breeder model" in the
areas of the USA where early Spring queen production
is difficult.

Keep up the interest and effort! Once local beekeepers begin
to change the way they think about managing their queens and
re-queening, locally produced quality queens and
regional queen rearing efforts will flourish!

Adam Finkelstein
adamf7@gmail.com
 
#11 ·
The biggest downside to the micro-breeder concept that I can see would occur if a small time breeder failed to incorporate occasional new genetics into his program. We tend to breed from our best queens, who tend to produce the best queens from which we breed again and also use as drone rearing queens. It doesn't take many generations for this to narrow the gene pool since even the local ferals will start picking up your genetics from your drones. For this reason, I try to introduce two or three queens from a breeder at least 100 miles away from me and 100 miles from the last breeder I bought from every year.
 
#12 ·
beemandan writes:
More lessons! You sure are a smart guy. I wish I'd known all that stuff before I embarrassed myself with my earlier post.

tecumseh replies:
maybe yes and maybe know?

when a person makes some absolute statement (reference my earlier snippet of beemandan's post) that goes totally againist prevailing marketing trends (see adamf comments) you have done a pretty good job of painting yourself into a corner.

a bit thin skinned are we?
 
#13 ·
when a person makes some absolute statement (reference my earlier snippet of beemandan's post) that goes totally againist prevailing marketing trends (see adamf comments) you have done a pretty good job of painting yourself into a corner.
*Its going to be difficult to find many arguments against it. *

This absolute statement that goes totally against prevailing market trends?
This is what triggered my business management lecture?
a bit thin skinned are we?
I'm thinkin' we are.
 
#15 ·
the problem that sierrabee references would have been a problem 20 years ago.... with the availability of AI queens this particular problem is not so undouable as other problems (previous referred to as large hurdles). this one structural difference (over time) in the market (ie the availability of AI queens) is also why some folks presumption that northern bred 'winter hardy' bees relies much more on wishful thinking than on practical concerns.

end of lecture....
 
#16 ·
I don't object in the least to "micro-breeders," if that's the proper term. As others have suggested on other threads, a difference does lie between "queen producers" and "queen breeders." I wonder if the "micro-breeder" term is somewhat confused, but "micro queen producer" sounds as if the beekeeper is producing exceptionally small queens.

Having said that, I'm not sure that "micro-breeders" can really keep up with demand. Based on the constraints of time and space that I imagine, I can't fathom a "micro-breeder" being able to fulfil, say, 100 orders averaging 10 queens (is that a reasonable number? I have no way of knowing) in one month. To me, that would require more than 1000 nucs tied up just for the production of queens for that month, and at that point, the queen producer ceases to be "micro" by the way I would define it.

On the other hand, if enough small scale producers start marketing their queens, perhaps many "micro-breeders" will be able to provide the same numbers as the larger queen producers. Think enough capable and willing small-scale producers are out there?
 
#17 ·
I think you raise an important point, Kieck,

I'm not sure myself what the upside potential is, and I doubt if anyone is ready to quit their day job to micro-breed queens. In my mind, as I resonate with this terminology, a micro-breeder is local, raising local queens to local beekeepers. From my perspective, it's a small, regionalized endeavor, probably not even involving mail-order. I think I would be my own best customer.

In the beer industry, they say the "big boys" spill more beer on the floor in one day than the micro-brewers produce all year. I'm not sure that's correct, but the idea is the micro-brewer is no threat and doesn't even plan on competing on such a large scale. I doubt if the micro-breeder of queens is going to put any quality, large-scale queen breeder out of business.

And I would also imagine the micro-breeder isn't adverse to ordering in some quality genetics from the larger breeders. So in reality, micro-breeders are micro-producers, but the alliteration with brewer/breeder seems to stick better.

Grant
Jackson, MO

http://www.25hives.homestead.com
 
#18 ·
Kieck,
I think the micro-breeder will make impacts and gains in the years ahead.

One of the traditional problems that breeders had outside the deep south and west coast had was the ability to produce, market, and profit from their efforts.

Several things have come about in the past 10 or so years. One has been those industry leaders such as Kirk Webster and others who have shown that overwintering nucs can be done in the north.

The other is the use of Russian and carniolan bee lines that make overwintering of nucs possible. Some of the practices are just not manageable with prolific non-stop Italian lines.

But its also an educational drive that will build the micro-breeder business base, at least in the northern part of the country.

The days of going into winter with what you need or project as needed for next year, and coming out in spring with some loss, and then jumping onto the package and early queen bandwagon needs to be thought out. And splitting the strongest hives preflow and damaging your honey crop is also a thing to consider not doing.

I think educating beekeepers in the north about building up their numbers after the flow, going into winter with a surplus of hives, and working what you come out of winter rewards the beekeeper in so many ways.

Some benefits include:
*You don't split your hives and damage your honey production.
*You get better queens later in the spring.
*You split your hives and build nucs at a time when these management tasks can be used as a mite control IPM as well. (Brood breaks/artificial swarming)
*You can purchase regional/local stock.

Yes, there will always be the package business and mass produced queens that will fill a void in the business. But for any micro-breeder, especially in the north, the business demand is beyond production. And overwintered nucs for many smaller operation is a real product that many are willing to choose.

I lose some business for those who feel the earth will stop rotating if they don't have bees the first of April. And so the packages will continue. But I have many people, and clubs are starting to band together, in supporting the micro-breeder, northern breeders, and other local/region produced products.

I see a change in beekeepers attitude, and an understanding from beekeepers who are willing to wait for a northern raised queen, or a nuc that may be ready a little later than traditional package delivery times.

I don't see micro-breeders keeping up with demand either. But what a great place to be as a micro-breeder. ;)
 
#19 ·
>>I lose some business for those who feel the earth will stop rotating if they don't have bees the first of April.

Agree. I've also seen some of this. It seems to be alot of new beekeepers who are desperate to get bees and don't understand the difference between quality nucs/queens vs those pushed out in quantity.

I think that the overwintered nucs will fill this role if/when people begin to understand that a QUALITY queen raised in the fall and overwintered is often a better option than a current year early April queen that is untested.

Obviously that may not hold true for every queen produced but you get the point.

I plan on wintering nucs next season with the purpose of offering them as nucs in Spring of 2009. I think Kirk Webster has the right idea... Now we just need to help buyers understand the benefits.
 
#20 ·
nuc and queens

well I found that doing lot less and doing lot better pays off in long run. I built up my operation doing it small but better also supplying the market with what they need ie small cell or selling mediums even shipping where the big guys wont.
that's my opion for what it is worth.
Don
 
#21 ·
Dan -
I followed the link to your Web Page and you have some very good info for beginners. It looks like your class is first-rate. It would have prevented some of my mistakes but I guess on the bright side I have learned from my beekeeping flubs.

I am hoping to raise a few queens this year for my own use. I guess I would be smaller than a micro-breeder, more like a nano-breeder or pico-breeder. It seems that local queens would make sense and our Ohio State Beekeepers Association has started up the Ohio Queen Rearing Project. They are holding classes and have a nice Handbook
http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/OSBA Queen Rearing Project/overview.html

Hopefully I can learn enough to contribute in some way.
 
#22 ·
Tony,
I think you will find queen rearing rewarding. I think every beekeeper should try it.

Is anyone here familiar with the Ohio queen rearing efforts? I am interested in learning about as much as i can about the different organizations. But I have some questions concerning the website that tony has listed.

It seems that two distinct areas of effort is being pursued. One is the efforts to produce a Ohio strain that is better than what they have now. And the other is two educate as many beekeepers possible to raise queens themselves.

Unto themselves, both are worthy efforts. But combined, I'm not so sure.

The website encourages Ohio beekeepers to get involved into queen rearing, and sell queens.

I kind of question the ability to train 500 or 1000 individual beekeepers in queen rearing and somehow tie this into developing a particular line of bees. To maintain a true line of bees is a overwhelming task unto itself. And it would be better with a structured format such as the Russian bee breeders association with a core of breeders.

But the Ohio program has I think nine region coordinators, and they are training hundreds of beekeepers to take part.

Can someone explain this to me. What the goals are, what they are trying to achieve, and what the mechanics are behind their efforts.

Thank you.
 
#23 ·
Maybe I don't belong in this discussion because of my location,buuuttt... I thought one of the main reasons queens were raised in the south was to replace winter losses. The northen beeks were in a hurry to get bees and queens in thier empty boxes and get them back into production, plus the fact of not having to store and protect all that comb. I can see the arugument for wanting queens that are breed for cold weather, and late summer/fall replacement has it advantages. I'm wondering how many of the larger operations can wait till late spring to "rehive". Are yall really seeing a lot of difference between "southern" bred queens, and "northern" bred queens? I'm not disagreeing with anyone just asking.
 
#24 ·
Are yall really seeing a lot of difference between "southern" bred queens, and "northern" bred queens?
Hello Dale,
A good question. Seems like the concept of regional selection or regional specificity
is hitting home with beekeepers now. The term "Micro-Breeder"
reflects this new awareness.

If a Micro-Breeder was located in a Northern clime, he/she would be selecting
in the local population and thus those queens and colonies would potentially
be more suitable to that region than queens selected in a clime unlike the local one.

The bottom line with any bee breeding is the quality of the
queens --from the breeding stock on through to mating.
Local queens do not have to travel as far.
Reduced stress on queens ensures greater quality.

Thus, at least from my read, the "North vs South" in queens and
with "Micro-breeding" is more of a local vs remote issue.


Adam Finkelstein
adamf7@gmail.com
 
#25 ·
I think you raise a great question. I used to order southern queens because they were ready months ahead of my local ability to raise queens, largely due to cold weather.

In the past, I bought southern queens, mated and ready to go, in order to replace flagging queens or to make splits from strong hives. And getting a hive/split up and running FAST was my goal. In that respect, no, I could not wait for the right weather to raise my local queens, make split, and expect a good honey crop.

My intent now, as a pico-producer, is to raise summer queens, make fall splits/requeening, and get a hive settled for winter. While I don't have a brand-spanking new southern queen, I have one that is six months old, tested, broke-in, accepted and ready to go when the weather finally moderates.

Aside from other issues, that's what I like about raising local queens. I will never beat the weather and I can't get the jump like my southern colleagues.

Grant
Jackson, MO
 
#27 ·
bjorn,

i can't answer your questions directly, as i know nothing about the ohio queen breeders program (but i do know a beekeeper who grew up in ohio, and talks about meetings where people brought a few queens to meetings and swapped them around...so there may be a history that has influenced the current program).

although bees are not apples, one can look at the activities of john chapman (johnny appleseed), as they are documented in "botany of desire" by michael pollan and see some possible benefits. for different reasons, bees and apples don't necessarily resemble their parents (at least open mated bees...i can't speak for ai). a seed from an apple will not produce a tree that produces similar apples (which is why grafting is the cornerstone to the apple industry), and a daughter queen who's mother mates with 15 or so different drones will not necessarily produce similar workers (or queens) as her mother did.

johnny appleseed was not planting trees for eating apples..his trees were for cider. grafting was a known technique, and there were several "old world" apple varieties that would have been good candidates for grafting if eating apples were desired. for cider, any old fruit (even if ugly and not too sweet) will do, so johnny didn't spread grafts around...he used seeds from behind the cider mill....of which each seed had an infinitesimally small chance of bearing "yummy fruit" for eating.

but the genetic dice were rolled....and of the thousands of cider orchards started from his seeds, a few rare instances of a great apple grew and was noticed. ...the grafts from these trees are the "new world apples" that we know and love, and we would never have them if we persisted in grafting the old lines, and only produced from "the best stock".

i see a parallel with bees and bee breeding. every location and management/selection style applies it's own pressures, and provides it's own limited isolation. as an extreme example, i'd suggest that if one were using a migratory operation as a basis, you would be selecting for bees that build up and can take advantage of a constant flow broken up with short moving trips....whereas a stationary operation might be selecting for bees that can take advantage of one or two large flows without going through all their stores in a dearth. these are related (quick/anticipated buildup), and contrasting (large population all season) needs. some people inspect weekly, some go into hives 4-5 times a year, some areas get cold quickly, some warm up early.....to keep the genepool diverse and alive...and more importantly, to "discover" the bees we need as those needs change, it's imperative that we have large numbers of small breeders who are not trying to "protect their line of bees".

i agree that pure lines are going to be impossible for small beekeepers to maintain..but for myself, i'd rather have a system that can be somewhat self contained (as in not buying queens) that might be a little less productive than produce a little more and be relying on crosses of pure lines that come from a breeder.

with a good inspection program coupled with organized breeding, i think one can "roll the dice" (with small scale "amature" breeding) _and_ select the best to incorporate into the more organized breeding program. this seems like a win/win to me...mostly because it involves more beekeepers in queen breeding....and allows the success of the amature to be recognized and incorporated into the rest of the program.

deknow
 
#28 ·
I was at at meeting the Ohio State Beekeepers Had at Troy ohio this fall.The meeting was about selecting breeder queens.It was a very good and informative meeting.I am just getting into the idea of raising queens mostly for my own use.What i got out of the meeting is they are trying to make beekeepers self suffciant.At the same time they want to educate beeks on the selction of stock to make high quality queens not just produce alot of queens.I have read lately that several other states are doing the same thing.I see alot of good comeing from such meetings.If nothing else you will learn what to ask when buying queens from anyone big or small.

I do plan on going to Tim Tarheit's queen classes this season.This another good thing comeing from this typ of meeting.Where and who to contact to get some help.

I to see the micro breeder makeing an impact in the bee world and maybe sooner than we may all think.Sure there will be plenty of bumps in the road but alot of good can come from such programs.
 
#29 ·
Do we need a BUZZ word?

Micro-breeder?
We have always accepted that queen rearing was another step in becoming a good beekeeper.
Here is another BUZZ word: sustainability.
It seems to me that every beekeeper at some point should at least know how to rear queens and have experience with all of the timing and steps involved. Even if one would rather purchace queens from another source, I feel that it is very important to have the skills and be ready to jump into action if there was a shortage or worse.....
For now, I will continue to purchace queens. But every other year I will continue to set up and run a few batches just to keep tuned up.
;)
Over wintering nucs up north is nothing new.
Well, it's new to me but not many others.
And, overwintered nucs DO NOT have to be russian or carniolean.
I am taking 17 nucs to California that are Italian, and Cordovan.
YES, they are jammed with bees and have taken up quite a bit of their stores; PERFECT!!
Follow this thread through all 3 pages for some really cool Northern nuc operations:

http://orsba.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1162322072
 
#30 ·
If it were up to me, I would never like to see anyone order queens from "big-time" producers. This just waters down one's stock in general. I believe in finding a good stock and sticking with it. I also believe that natural requeening is a good trait to have in bees. They will know when a new queen is necessary. I do not think requeening every year is a good idea either. One of my best queens will be going into her third year double cropping and is still outlaying any of my other much younger queens. I have bred off this "mother queen" and all the queens that have resulted are far superior to ordered queens.
 
#31 ·
the 'consumers' preference for a very early queen or packages should not be discounted by anyone and there are plenty of practical reason for this as several people have suggested.... replacing queens that have failed in the early spring and boosting (typically done with packages with no queens) lagging hives being concerns that just will not wait.

beemandan writes:
I think the fact that many queen ‘producers’ are in the south is most closely tied to package bee production. The earlier that packages can be made available, the better their chances to survive and thrive. So, since earlier packages can be produced in the south it only makes sense for them to also produce early queens to go into those packages. And, since they’re already set up to produce queens they might as well supply them throughout the summer.

tecumseh replies:
most southern queen/package producers* were designed around the idea of taking off surplus bees and weight before the bees are moved back north. when most of these operations were first put together and everything was about collecting a honey crop (in tems of profit) the really huge potential honey crops were always northward. so the idea was to skim off the excess bees (into packages) and honey (into split)... generate a bit of cash flow and then move north.

*quite typically most if not all southern queen producers also have a northern residence during the summer and there is about a 50/50 likelyhood those 'southern queen producer' family originated from either minnesota or north dakota.

the sentence that really caught my eye is the last in the paragraph.... I would suggest to you that one of the evolving niche in the queen rearing market is the trend towards some big time 'southern' queen producers not producing queen much beyond very early summer. I do see this niche evolving here in that the small hive beetle is making it increasingly difficult to produce queens without significant 'personal attention' as we drift into the summer months. for the large operation this path may becomes more necessary since by late spring/early fall most of the labor force has move back north with the bees so 'personal attention' becomes almost impossible.

hopefully my 'lecture' was not too long winded.
 
#32 ·
the 'consumers' preference for a very early queen or packages should not be discounted by anyone and there are plenty of practical reason for this as several people have suggested.... replacing queens that have failed in the early spring and boosting (typically done with packages with no queens) lagging hives being concerns that just will not wait.
Well we'll just have to change that perception, won't we. There's nothing better than requeening a weak hive with an overwintered nuc, bustin' out of their box. That's how you get northern raised queens early.
Mike
 
#33 · (Edited)
Tecumseh:

One of the advantages of being around a while is you can remember what it was like 20 years ago. If you look back at the Roman Empire you can see the parrallels with the "American Empire" today. Progress does not erase the lessons of history nor does it make them irrelevant, it only encourages people to ignore them.

In my lifetime I have seen the German Shephard dog go from a medium sized, vigerous, long lived animal to one where you could look at a new thoroughbred pup and make a reasonable guess as to how long, (one doesn't consider the question of "if?") it would have to be put to sleep because it couldn't use it's hind legs. That was the result of inbreeding for traits the breeders considered important without regard for the need for genetic diversity. I could name fifty breeds of animals with differant genetic problems resulting from "pure" breeding. I don't believe that mankind is competent to determine what traits are desireable in our own species, let alone in another species or to ballance the good with the bad in a way that benifits the species in question. Put a pair of comercially produced domestic turkeys together and they won't be able to reproduce because the breast muscles of the Tom are so huge he can't reach the female to copulate. That species will only survive for one generation without human intervention by AI.

My suggestion was that a small breeder should introduce new genes into his local gene pool from time to time to avoid this sort of thing. It doesn't matter if the new genes come from open bred queens, or AI queens, or feral swarm queens, as long as there is a reasonable amount of variation from the population in the breeder's imediate area. Then if the beekeeper allows nature to have some control over the surviving population he/she should be able to maintain a viable but slightly variable genetic line indefinately. I'm not saying we should go back to the old German Black Bees because they have been able to survive without us, but just that we don't want to turn our bees into critters that have to have a dozen differant chemicals and be pampered (what Sue Colby calls welfare bees) in order to make it from one year to the next. Genetic diversity and natural selection are the key ingredients of a strong population that is able to bounce back from environmental stress. AI is a means of excercising more control over some of the desirable traits, but if one depends exclusively on it for production stock they will find that something is always lost in the process of tight selection, and often that something which is lost is critical to the survival of the population. Most good AI breeders warn their customers that their AI queens are for queen breeding only and not to try to use them for production. Most good production queen breeders only use AI queens to introduce a specific trait into their line and make no effort to use a large enough percentage of AI queens that the controled genetics can overwhelm the traits in their original production line.

AI is a good tool, but don't depend on a screwdriver to drive a nail. Don't depend on AI to provide diversity, it isn't designed for that job.
 
#34 ·
I was raised in the Chico area of California.
Here are some reasons why the queen breeders are historically in that area.
1.0 Easier to move the bees into the almonds for building bees. Some of those moves are onley 20-30 miles.
1.1 I flew into the Chico airport to visit relatives and when we starting to approach the airfield I had the great delight to see thousands of bee HIVES staged on the volcanic soil base for almonds. AT MY MOM AND DAD'S SMALL CATTLE RANCH I WOULD WATCH MANY TRUCK LOADS OF BEES GOING INTO ALMOND POLLINATION, SOME OF THOSE POLLINATORS MADE 2-3 ROUND TRIPS PER MORNING !
2.0 The flowering sequence kind of goes like this.
WILLOWS, ALMONDS, PRUNES, PEACHES, PEARS, PLUMS, MUSTARD AND OTHER WILDFLOWERS, MANZANITA --WE HAVE 30 SPECIES IN CALIFORNIA AND A 30" PLUS RAINY SEASON.
3.0 IF YOU GO UP INTO THE REDDING AND RED BLUFF AREA YOU HAVE EVEN MORE RAIN.
4.0 THE ORCHARDIST MAY ALSO SEED THE ORCHARD WITH WINTER COVER CROPS WHICH IS REAL NICE FOR BUILDING BEES.
5.0 THE CANADIANS COULD MAKE THE ANNUAL TRIP FOR PACKAGES.
6.0 THE ABUNDANCE OF OAK TREES IS USED TO SHADE THE HIVE LATER IN THE QUEEN SEASON.
7.0 THE AREA IS BLESSED WITH A LOT OF NATURA RESOURCES.
7.1 JUST THINK ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WILLOWS ON BOTH BANKS OF THE SACRAMENTO RIVER AND ALL OF THE STREAMS THAT CONVERGED WITH IT TO CARRY WATER TO S.F.
8.0 you have 4 + of the largest queen and package bee producers in the USA within 30 to 45 miles of each other. (That must get exciteing once in a while!) (Spell check is not working.)

Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries
 
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