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Received conflicting advice on going treatment free

14K views 56 replies 30 participants last post by  StevenG 
#1 ·
We are new to beekeeping this year and will be bringing our nucs home in the next month. I was told by a beekeeper recently that while it's a lovely thought to go treatment free and "natural" that we should do standard proven methods first and then experiment with treatment free. That most newbies that try a natural approach have too many die and get frustrated. In all my reading and research it seems like nothing is solid proven so why not go treatment free and raise more resistant bees? Seems like people lose just as many bees treating with the works so he completely confused me saying to do all the proven treatments. I guess I'm just looking for a little encouragement to go the treatment free way we were planning or trying to understand what he meant. Thanks!
 
#2 ·
I was brand-new to beekeeping a year ago. I had read everything I could possibly get my hands on, and developed a mindset from that. Much will depend on your goals, I guess, and your attitude toward "the girls" in general. Don't let anyone else tell you the right way to go.

There is no "Standard proven method." My god, has someone not been watching the newscasts or reading the paper lately about the plight of bees?

So if encouragement is what you want re: treatment free, I guess I could give you some. It works GREAT for me.

Check out Michael Bush. Check out Solomon Parker.

You will find many opinions on this site. Follow what your gut tells you. Experience is going to be a great teacher, though! Best of luck to you!

Sondra
 
#4 ·
I am sure my hives would have had a much higher winter survival rate if I had treated for mites. I consider it growing pains. It will take time to find genetics (through queens, local breeding or swarms) that can survive with pests. Perhaps others will get lucky and find it right off the line, but I doubt it. If you are going to start TX free, plan on having a crash in your hives, if it never comes so much the better.
 
#5 ·
i'm a year old beekeeper, so take this with the requisite cup of salt, but I don't think there's virtually ANY area where you'll more conflicting advice than on the issue of treatment. as far as I can tell, there isn't even a consensus about what a treatment IS -- is a screened bottom board a treatment? how about brood breaks or drone traps? how about sugar dusting? formic acid? and so on. So you really are going to have go with your gut, and experiment as best you can. If you haven't found it, Randy Oliver's scientific beekeeping website has been really useful for my thoughts on this issue, since he's someone who clearly wants to go treatment free, but who actually wants to test claims made for various soft treatment options. Michael Bush too. At the end of the day, though, they are your bees, and you'll have to figure out things by trial and error (lots of errors, if I'm any judge!).
 
#7 ·
They may be your bees, but only in ownership. In the treatment free sense they are the last guys bees. If the nucs you are buying are treated you have a long road ahead. That does not mean stay off that road. You do need to watch for potholes, treated or not. You need to know what is happening to your bees either way.
If you can get treatment free queens you may move several evolutions ahead on treatment free.
 
#8 ·
If you get bees that were treated before, fret not.. the only one that lives very long is the queen... the rest are just transients.... and do not pass on any of the treatment issues.......

But treatment free is a great goal.. and from what I see and hear possible, just be prepared for high losses, and realize its part of the leaning curve...... I myself love the idea, but the praticality of it is not always economicly right for me. I try to stay away from treatments. but last year I had to change that plan, or loose 80% of my hives...... (EFB)
 
#10 ·
I'm new this year also and at first was scared to death of treatment free but after much reading and listening to many beeks I'm not any longer. I'll hope for and do my best and prepare for the worst. And if the worst happens I'll dust myself off take the knowledge Ive assembled and try again. I won't poison my girls. Just try and find the right combinations so they can do what they do naturally. Jeff
 
#11 ·
I worried about this too and received similar advice - I'm only a year in, so it may well still prove to be sound advice! I don't know that I do entirely qualify as "treatment-free" as I did experiment a few things (like sugar dusting for example). My personal rule was to not put anything into the hives that I wouldn't be willing to be put in my children's mouths (I have lower standards for my safety I guess!) and I think that's how it's going to stay. It's a hobby for me and I am willing to absorb the losses if they happen.
 
#12 ·
After reading every book in my public library system cover to cover, buying some others and spending a lot of time here I concluded the most agreeable approach to me was treatment-free and foundationless. The first year I caught 3 local feral swarms. 1 absconded. The second got robbed out due to my stupid feeding idea. The last made it half way through the winter then starved. All had some degree of cross-comb.

I learned a wealth from all this. Last year I caught 7 swarms. Combined 2 weak ones in the Fall. And all 6 hives made it through a cold winter (for my locale). All are very strong now. I split the 3 strongest this past weekend and caught 2 local swarms so far. My bee yard now has 6 established, strong treatment-free, cross-comb-free foundation less hives, 3 splits and 2 new swarms.

If you're the type who needs to lean heavily on a support group you will want your practices to be compatible with theirs. If you're willing to rough it on your own private learning curve to pursue your own goals then choose your path and stay the course. Treatment free will work. The folks here are very helpful.
 
#13 · (Edited)
After reading every book in my public library system cover to cover, buying some others and spending a lot of time here I concluded the most agreeable approach to me was treatment-free
A lot of good advice in this first sentence that I think would help a lot of people out on these decisions. HiveMind boasts that he read every book he could get his hands on as well as doing a lot of reading on beesource. Non stop research on the subject of beekeeping. AFTER a pile of time spent reading and researching he concluded the most agreeable approach TO HIM was treatment-free. I get the impression that a lot of people come to the TF forums looking to pick sides and get people on the band wagon of saying one form of beekeeping is better then another when in reality HiveMind succinctly summarized in his first sentence how beekeeping should be approached. Lots of studying and learning followed by an individual choice on how you personally intend to manage your colonies. Please don't buy into the labels and titles of natural beekeeper, treatment free beekeeper, chemical free beekeeper and just keep bees the way you feel most comfortable.
 
#18 ·
Another newbie here. After all my reading, I decided to go treatment free. I still managed to make a mistake in going with just one hive to start. I figured I'd start slow and work up, but two would have allowed for better comparison. See, I'm learning already.

I'm getting package bees because I don't feel comfortable going out on swarm calls right out of the gate. I was basically told to suck it up when I mentioned this elsewhere, but I don't think anyone should start out too far over their head. That'd be like taking your first horseback ride at Santa Anita, in full jockey colors. I'm also not so sure people calling for removal services would appreciate my neophyte status.

I'll install my one package on foundationless. I don't expect a honey harvest and will in fact be happy to have a viable hive at season's end.

So far, has anything I've said struck anyone reading as too delusional?
 
#19 ·
I'll install my one package on foundationless. I don't expect a honey harvest and will in fact be happy to have a viable hive at season's end.

So far, has anything I've said struck anyone reading as too delusional?
You're expectations are spot on. Make sure your hive is perfectly level and cut your frame's end bars down to 1 1/4" and you will have a good year. Also, be sure to keep enough sugar on your newly installed package until they stop taking it to increase your odds of having success with your package this year.

How many pounds of bees in the package you're getting?
 
#23 ·
I started my first hives for "4H" in the late fifties. The only problem I remember was the possibility foul brood. We didn't do any treatment. My biggest worry where I lived were bears. I sold my hives when I went to college. Last year I got back into bees with my daughter. After a lot of reading both books and information on the internet we decided to go with local swarms and treatment free. Michael Bush influenced me the most with his writings. If I were a commercial beekeeper with a thousand hives I might have to do things differently. We have three healthy hives, two top bar and a langstroth all started from captured local swarms. We harvested some honey but not a lot. Being the first year we wanted them to build. They wintered over strong and healthy with no feeding. They are now starting the new season with foundation less frames full of empty comb and lots of blooms. We captured a swarm on tax day from a lilac bush. I don't plan to buy bees or queens. I feel catching local swarms will supply me with healthy stock.
 
#24 ·
I started my first hives for "4H" in the late fifties. The only problem I remember was the possibility foul brood. We didn't do any treatment. My biggest worry where I lived were bears. I sold my hives when I went to college. Last year I got back into bees with my daughter. After a lot of reading both books and information on the internet we decided to go with local swarms and treatment free. Michael Bush influenced me the most with his writings. If I were a commercial beekeeper with a thousand hives I might have to do things differently. We have three healthy hives, two top bar and a langstroth all started from captured local swarms. We harvested some honey but not a lot. Being the first year we wanted them to build. They wintered over strong and healthy with no feeding. They are now starting the new season with foundation-less frames full of empty comb and lots of blooms. We captured a swarm on tax day from a lilac bush. I don't plan to buy bees or queens. I feel catching local swarms will supply me with healthy stock.
 
#25 ·
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that things like mite resistance and longevity of the queen stock are more important factors to consider, than whether or not to treat. Even the strongest, healthiest, best bees can get sick, just like Olympic athletes are not immune to the flu.

That said, however, I don't subscribe to the cook-book method of prophylactically treating bees. My thoughts are, do the absolute minimum, keep a close eye
on the hives and mite counts, and when you see a problem looming, THEN treat it aggressively.

Personally, I don't treat for anything. There are 2 reasons for this. One is we have very little varroa/SHB/AFB/EFB in this region. The other is because I want to get a sense for the conditions my bees exist under. I want to see for myself what is going on- in other words, if I treat, I wont be able to tell whether it's the treatment that keeps the hives alive, or if they would have been fine without it. I'm a little leery of beekeepers who say things like "If you dont treat, you wont have any hive comes spring". I'm willing to lose my hives to put that claim to the test, and also to see just how quickly they succumb to pests/pathogens, what the symptoms are, how well they react, etc. To me, thats what being a beginning beekeeper is all about- the learning process. When a local beekeeper sold me a couple of what he called "rough around the edges" feral nucs that ended up being queenless, I was thrilled. I got to learn to requeen, do newspaper combines, deal with a laying worker, and still managed to get one hive through the winter. I learned a ton from those "rough" bees, and wouldn't have traded them for anything.

So, my thought is don't treat. Sit back and see what happens. Then treat any problems that crop up, and see how well it works. Expect a loss rate in your hives, but chalk it up to a learning experience.
 
#26 ·
I'm a 3rd year TF guy who had heavy winter losses this year. Down from 41 hives to about 20 strong colonies left, with a few more stragglers.

Now, I'm sure the major reason for my losses was related to our drought and lack of fall forage and pollen (and some beginner mistakes), but I'm also sure mites played a roll in some of my colonies not being as strong as they should have been.

I'm commited to TF for at least another couple of years, but in my experience TF can be a tough road in the beginning.

Like Karla said in an earlier post, the beekeeping learning curve is pretty steep and the best advice I would give you emulates her's, and that is to get a good local mentor who has had success at keeping bees the way you think you would like too, and follow everything they say to a tee. There are TF folks in your area.

Good luck,

Don Semple
Overland Park, KS
 
#27 ·
There are two basic ways to go treatment free.
First, get some bees and don't treat. Breed from the survivors year after year, and after massive losses, you'll have treatment free bees.

Second, buy packages or queens from a reputable breeder that has a proven track record of treatment free bees. They're out there, and they advertise. Then you can with confidence go treatment free from the get-go. This is what I've done, and have been completely treatment free since re-starting in bees in 2006. Losses range from a consistent low of 6% to a high of 18%.

fwiw
Regards,
Steven
 
#56 ·
buy packages or queens from a reputable breeder that has a proven track record of treatment free bees. They're out there, and they advertise. Then you can with confidence go treatment free from the get-go. This is what I've done, and have been completely treatment free since re-starting in bees in 2006.
Steven,

If you don't mind telling, since you've been successful, where did you get your bees from?
 
#28 ·
It's much easier to START on small or natural cell size than to convert later. It's much easier to NOT contaminate your comb than to replace it all later. It's much easier to get and maintain a natural system from the start than to try to recover from all the damage you do by treating.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

When I was treating for Varroa I lost all of them. Several times. I have had MUCH more success not treating them and keeping them in a natural system on natural comb.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
 
#29 ·
Well I didn't read everyone's response to this thread. I too am in my second year now and went treatment free. My decision was made long before I came to the site. I went foundationless and treatment free which would not be defined in this forum because I decided to give my bees some good bee tea which I found online that contained thyme oil which was fine with me. Over the winter here in Alabama I lost no bees and hive strong hives. Take care of your girls the way u feel comfortable and have fun.
 
#30 ·
We are new to beekeeping this year and will be bringing our nucs home in the next month.
Good start. They should be local. If you're getting packages from the south, chances are you're gonna have a bad time.


I was told by a beekeeper recently that while it's a lovely thought to go treatment free and "natural" that we should do standard proven methods first and then experiment with treatment free.
First of all, keeping bees is not natural. Let's just get that out of the way right at the beginning. These "standard proven methods" are anything but. They're younger than I am and probably younger than you are. In fact, they're so standard and proven that they keep wearing out after a few years and quit working. The oldest of the mite treatments, Apistan, has been around for 20 years. It doesn't work any more. It didn't work very well to begin with. Think about how good an idea it is to feed an insecticide to and insect to try to kill an insect on the insect. I'm being facetious, but only a little bit.


That most newbies that try a natural approach have too many die and get frustrated.
And most of those newbees start with one hive and a southern package. Don't do it.


In all my reading and research it seems like nothing is solid proven so why not go treatment free and raise more resistant bees?
That's true. Look at past results from the Bee Informed National Survey. The best treatment reduces mortality from 38% to 28%. Most of them do practically nothing, and that includes non-chemical and "organic" methods.


Seems like people lose just as many bees treating with the works so he completely confused me saying to do all the proven treatments.
Right. People defend their ideas. That's a given. I'm doing it right now. Look at the numbers. Make your own determination.


I guess I'm just looking for a little encouragement to go the treatment free way we were planning or trying to understand what he meant.
In one week, I will have been keeping bees treatment free for 10 years. It can be done. And I save a whole lot of time and effort not buying treatments, worrying about treating, and getting stressed when treatments don't work. It's simple back to basics beekeeping working on the Expansion Model. Outgrow the mites and pretty soon other mechanisms will kick in.
 
#31 ·
Good start. They should be local. If you're getting packages from the south, chances are you're gonna have a bad time.

Agree, so now what? How many packages come out of the south each year? 500K 1,000K? How to convert those to treatment free? Anybody can work on regression. What else. What is your recommendation for the masses? Local mated queens, virgins? Does it require a frame of bees to innoculate the hive? Not argueing with you, it would be nice if everbody could start with local nucs. Not there yet.

For those starting with a southern package because it is a choice of that or nothing, what is your suggested course of conversion?
 
#32 ·
It's probably too late this year, but it is possible to find local bees, and to find packages that are somewhat better than the mass-produced southern packages.

The best advice is to join as many local clubs as you can. That's where I found my first local nuc, from a guy who produces a few just for fun, with local mutts and open mated well-fed queens. And through the club I could have bought others from larger-scale but still fairly local guys. Because I was interested in small cell bees, I also bought a package from Wolf Creek. These are not strictly treatment free, but the treatments are at least limited to stuff like essential oils, so those bees are probably less damaged than many packages. There are other suppliers you can get decent packages and queens from.

But even if all you can get when you decide to start keeping bees is a southern mass-produced package, it's still worthwhile to do it, in my opinion. Bees are bees, and you will learn a great deal, even if your bees die. And you can learn the techniques you'll need when you get better bees. You can have them draw out good natural comb, for example, and if they don't make it, you'll have good comb next spring. You can make splits, you can see what brood breaks will do for you, and so on. It's cheap education.

I'm one of those people who always thought "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to keep some bees," but never got around to it until fairly late in life. Now I wish I'd done it much sooner, because even if I had, there's so much to learn about keeping bees that no one can possibly learn it all. But isn't that the greatest thing about the little bugs?
 
#37 ·
Solomon, with all due respect the comment "unfit bees" is hardly well targeted or correct. Many Many many of those hives do just as good as captured wild swarms. and "acclimated for the area" is silly also.... the turnover of bees in the hive handle that issue quickly. You could comment on queen types with some merit, and also point out your bringing the problems of the package supplier home with you, But I for example have doubled my number of hives almost every year, and my bees do just fine from packages. I only have 1 swarm hive. generaly as a rule I don't have time to even mess with swarms, and those 5-6 I do a year have fared much worse than my packages.

No way to do the math, but were everyone waiting to start beekeeping was waiting on swarms, 90% would never get bees......

So gut your package, get it started, if you like do your small cell, or whatever, get a nice queen from somebody like solomon, research VHS ... just get moving. don't be one of those guys sitting on the sidelines.
 
#38 ·
No way to do the math, but were everyone waiting to start beekeeping was waiting on swarms, 90% would never get bees......
In my experience, I do not find this to be true. Results will vary, but there has not been a year that I have made a reasonable effort that I did not catch at least one swarm. Had I also answered swarm calls, I could have gotten many more. Catching swarms is a viable option for most everybody and that 90% figure is wildly off.

Did you treat those packages?
 
#39 ·
Every year I sell over 300 packages, plus what I use. On a hot year I get a dozen swarm calls... Lots of people would compete for those few swarms....


Generaly I try not to treat. Last year I had some EFB I treated for, and going into winter I did treat 90% of my hives for mites.n The year before I didn't treat at all, and I also have 3 breeder hives that are untreated.

I also steal all extractable honey from everything but breeders, and ran about 50% losses... very pleased with that result given the amount of food left for them, and the really late fall mite treatment.

None of my breeder hives had issues.

Keep in mind i am all for treatment free!, just not fond of all the negitivity about packages, or those who do use treatments. Packages have been and are a reliable source for bees, for close to a million hives a year. since what 1920 or so???
While I am here, I am running a experiment this summer, testing southern production queens against "suvivor queens" do you have 10 you would be able to sell me in May? (not looking for donations) they will be balanced and weighed and tested for mites monthly.
 
#42 ·
Every year I sell over 300 packages
So you're not buying southern packages?


Generaly I try not to treat....... I did treat 90% of my hives........i am all for treatment free!, just not fond of ... those who do use treatments.
Wha???


do you have 10 you would be able to sell me in May?
Maybe, we'll see. Gotta fill orders first. Running late this year due to weather. I couldn't trust those results though, balancing. Why do that?
 
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