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SMALL CELL/NATURAL CELL any CONS??

12K views 52 replies 22 participants last post by  deknow 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm starting to make my plans for this next spring and before I make my final decision to go small/natural cell I have some questions. I have been reading various websites that are pro small/natural cell. My questions are: Are there any cons to going small cell? Has anyone changed to small cell and wish they had not? What are the hassles in changing? If you have a website with pro or con info please send it to me.

The websites I have been reading are:
Michael Bush http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
Dee Lusby http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm
bwrangler http://bwrangler.litarium.com/implications/

Thanks
Corinne
 
#2 ·
Well I'll offer one data point. I've sure liked going to natural cell. I did try a few small cell foundations, but the comb in my experience was drawn more quickly and more accurately with no foundation or just a starter strip. My only regret was in using wired foundation in the first place, now cutting those deeps down to mediums will require an added step to cut the wires if I want to keep the comb.

The only drawback I've seen to small cell is the cost of the foundation itself. Those websites can direct you in the process of regression which is pretty straightforward. Natural cell the only problem MIGHT be crazy comb if you didn't use starter strips maybe? I've had no problems whatsoever. Honey supers you might consider how not having wires affects extracting strength.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm starting to make my plans for this next spring and before I make my final decision to go small/natural cell I have some questions. I have been reading various websites that are pro small/natural cell. My questions are: Are there any cons to going small cell? Has anyone changed to small cell and wish they had not? What are the hassles in changing? If you have a website with pro or con info please send it to me.

The websites I have been reading are:
Michael Bush http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
Dee Lusby http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm
bwrangler http://bwrangler.litarium.com/implications/
Thanks
Corinne

I have both. I just always try to point out that small cell and natural cell are two different things. Smallcell is not natural cell, no matter how many times that is repeated in error.

Try both. Experience as much as you can. Play around with options. Beekeeping should be fun and educational. Don't lock yourself into a box, or have unreal expectations. Enjoy.
 
#6 ·
My questions are: Are there any cons to going small cell? Has anyone changed to small cell and wish they had not? What are the hassles in changing?
I know that I'm going to get a load of squawking from the pro small cell crowd and I don't plan to engage in a never ending debate with them. I'm only going to report my experience. I hope that those who disagree with me will accept that there is room for disagreement.

some small cell cons, in my experience:
a)Not every colony of bees regresses easily (or even at all). I have one that absolutely refuse to produce brood in 5.1mm. I have a number of them that managed 5.1 just fine but do a miserable job of drawing 4.9. After the first season on 4.9 (following a season on 5.1) I've culled about 20% of my first season 4.9 because of excessive drone or mangled cells.
b)I haven't seen any reduction in varroa counts after converting.
c)Those colonies that have successfully regressed have not shown any improvements in production.

My opinion is that small cell (4.9mm) may be a natural size for AHB and a few races of European bees. For a sizeable percentage of honey bees managed in this country, I believe, small cell is not natural. Forcing those bees to reproduce in unnaturally small cells, I believe, adds unnecessary stress to the colony. Jennifer Berry has commented that in one of her study yards a number of colonies showed signs of EFB. ALL of the diseased colonies were small cell. This may be one result of that unnecessary stress.

I consider the conversion of many of my hives to small cell an experiment. I don't regret it but knowing what I do today I wouldn't do it again. I also wouldn't recommend it for new beekeepers.

On the subject of natural cell. I hope to have an opinion this time next year.

Regards to all
 
#7 ·
cons

This year I am going with the Mann lake plastic frames/foundation in both medium and deeps.
I am going to alternate starter strips with the foundation and use a non small cell queen, but with small cell workers-- see what jives. I have 1 small cell hive, 2 natural cell hives .

I like bees that make alot of honey. My yard is isolated, so with the v mites I will see what gives. 07' was my first year so to early to tell
 
#8 ·
Small cell v natural cell

Small cell is no more natural than large cell.

Forcing bees to build in cells of any one size - be they 4.9mm or 5.7mm or anything in between - contradicts innumerable observations than bees prefer to build comb of varying sizes, depending on the season and according to rules to which we are not privy.

Getting hidebound in this or that theory that bees need ANY single size of cell is a dead end IMO.

Human theories have done what, exactly for the health of natural world?

USE YOUR EYES AND LET THE BEES TELL YOU WHAT THEY NEED.
 
#10 ·
Small cell is no more natural than large cell.

Forcing bees to build in cells of any one size - be they 4.9mm or 5.7mm or anything in between - contradicts innumerable observations than bees prefer to build comb of varying sizes, depending on the season and according to rules to which we are not privy.

Getting hidebound in this or that theory that bees need ANY single size of cell is a dead end IMO.

Human theories have done what, exactly for the health of natural world?

USE YOUR EYES AND LET THE BEES TELL YOU WHAT THEY NEED.
Thank you buckbee, so are you saying natural cell would be a prefered cell?

thanks,
Corinne
 
#9 ·
Thanks to everyone who has given me their experience and/or opinion so far.

Michael: >You've already read my opinion. But I see no downside.

Michael do you think or have you experienced problems regressing with a specific race of bee. The bees I have were a package of Italians I purchased in '06. Do you think regressing these bees would pose a problem?

BejornBee: >I just always try to point out that small cell and natural cell are two different things. Smallcell is not natural cell, no matter how many times that is repeated in error.

Yes, I understand this and plan to experiment. I now see there are more options than what I was first taught the first season with my bees.

BejornBee: >Don't lock yourself into a box, or have unreal expectations.

BejornBee, What would be unreal expectations? PS I like your smoker on e-bay and the pollen patties....yummmm :D

beemandan, Thank you for the candid post on your experience. If you think of anything else let me know. I am taking everything into consideration. These experiences are what I need to know.

thanks again,
Corinne
 
#11 ·
Well that's certainly true. However if one had small cell frames, they could then introduce foundationless frames on the edge of the broodnest which would be drawn with drone comb. These could be cut out periodically as part of an IPM varroa control strategy. Certainly the bees will make drone comb SOMEwhere, and if they have no outlet (if their colony is all small cell) it'll get messy. Small cell is theoretically based on the average cell size of natural worker brood comb, and mine has been drawn to about 4.9 very consistently. Drone and honey cells are of course different.
 
#21 ·
However if one had small cell frames, they could then introduce foundationless frames on the edge of the broodnest which would be drawn with drone comb.
This is true... but not limited to this scenario. I had a hive on standard (LC) foundation. I've been hoping to ease over to foundationless, and last year was experimenting with putting foundationless frames in different positions. In one shallow, I put 4 foundationless frames adjacent to each other in the center of the box. The bees drew 4 frames of drone comb.

Go figure.
 
#14 ·
It's reason for the season Barry! :) Think happy thoughts!!!

I gotta agree with yaw on the natural cell. Letting the bees do their thing is what I like to see most. Forcing them on anything more unnatural than the houses we give them already can't be a good thing for them.

I do know that I get a range of cells on the natural cell and see bees produced in different sizes throughout the year. When they are smaller or larger I haven't really tried to nail down. I really just took notice to it this year and will be watching a little closer in the coming year. But I do believe that I recall some of the writings from the feral folks about the bees using larger or smaller cell sizes for the brood at different times of the year.
 
#15 ·
>Just wondering, if you like foundationless as much as you seem to, why bother buying the PF120"s at all?

Because I'd have to buy a frame, cut it down to make the bevel and then assemble it and I'd have about the same money in it as the PF120's. The reason I bought a bunch of them is because I'm cheap and I'm lazy. I have a lot of both.

>Michael do you think or have you experienced problems regressing with a specific race of bee.

Not particularly. Certainly some just build small cell right out of a package, which leads me to believe they were on Pierco or some other intermediate size (5.2 to 5.35 for various Pierco products). But certainly genetics may play a part. It certainly plays a part for burr and misdrawn comb. Comb drawing seems to be partially genetics.

> The bees I have were a package of Italians I purchased in '06. Do you think regressing these bees would pose a problem?

I have not had any that wouldn't regress, but some do it on the first shot and some take two or three turnovers of the comb.
 
#17 ·
<Raising hand timidly in the back row>

Time for a silly new bee question. :confused:

Um, does 'Natural Cell' mean 'Foundationless' ? As in, let the bees build their own comb with only a starter strip, a la a TBH? Can you extract honey from that? Or am I totally confused? (Very possible. :D )

TIA
Summer
 
#18 ·
You are right Tia. Natural cell is drawn down (or up sometimes) with a starter strip or a tapered wooden piece in the top groove.

If you are looking to extract then personally I would wire for sure to ensure stability. The bees will draw around the wire and integrate it into the comb.
 
#24 ·
beveling top bars.
I introduced over 150 frames into 5 hives this spring by turning the wedge in the wedge bar frames up on its end, brad nailing it in place, and waxing the edge. This has to be way easier than beveling the top bars and you can still use the frame for foundation in the future if you wish. It worked fine and about the same as putting in starter strips cut from plastic foundation.
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi Guys,

When the bees are released from the foundation jail, they will attempt to build a natural broodnest. If a few empty frames are inserted into a hive with all worker sized comb, they will make up for the imbalance by constructing drone comb.

In a natural broodnest, the bees will build about the same amount of drone comb as they do small cell sized comb. It's just located in different portions of the broodnest. But somehow they can determine when they have enough of each.

The how is a very interesting question. Does a natural broodnest have a certain resonance? Do varied cell sizes emit some pheromone at different rates and a natural broodnest have a certain smell? How does a colony come to a consensus for drawing comb? Looking at the work done on swarming decisions, the process is probably very simple as bees are very simple creatures. But so far, it's beyond us.

Regards
Dennis
 
#27 ·
Three questions that I've never gotten an answer to, for anyone who
wants to answer:

1) If larger foundation resulted in a larger bee, why haven't bees in
Central and South America remained "small cell", given that
foundation has never been commonly used in these areas?
What "upsized" these bees?

2) Same question as (1), except as applied to other locations
where foundation has never been affordable, which means
most of the so-called "3rd World Nations". I'll toss out
the entire Caribbean as a good example, as I know quite
a few beekeepers on the string of islands that starts
with Jamaica at the Northwest, and ends up at
Trinidad and Tobago at the Southeast. (Bahamian
beekeepers do tend to use foundation.)

Questions (1) and (2) are intended to nail down what is "natural"
versus what might have been influenced by man by introducing
areas where bees were never subjected to such influences.

3) Has anyone ever asked anyone who works in the field of
genetics about the "smaller cell results in shorter
capping times" question?

Question (3) is intended to subject the most commonly-offered
mechanism claimed to be the factor that controls varroa to the
scrutiny that any other trait would be subjected to in beekeeping.
 
#28 ·
Good questions James. Are you any relation to Jim?

The biggest con with foundationless is that when its time to super, hives with foundation move up faster than boxes with one to three drawn frames and empty frames beside them. I discovered this after building up 5 hives with foundation and 5 hives without foundation this past season. In the beggining the foundationless hives out "drew" the hives with foundation. But as soon as I began supering the hives, the foundation hives out "drew" the foundationless ones. These where "3 medium" hives.

The second con with foundationless is that towards the middle to end of the honey flow you get lots of honey comb frames drawn that can only be used for honey storage or drone rearing in the future. This can be problematic depending on your needs.

Early in the season, sticking an empty frame with some sort of guide in the middle or edge of the broodnest gets nice comb drawn very quickly. Some of it will be drone comb, but you need drones to mate queens. Most beekeepers rear queens whether they realize that or not.
 
#35 ·
3) Has anyone ever asked anyone who works in the field of
genetics about the "smaller cell results in shorter
capping times" question?
I've never seen any suggestion this had anything to do with genetics
if you spend a year or two getting bees on SC comb you clearly haven't changed their genetics
you've changed their environment
what's your point?
last year my bees in my observation hive appeared to this novice to have a shorter post-capping time than what's suggested in the literature and that's in the winter (when things tend to be slowed down not speeded up)
sadly, my OH is empty now due to the crappy (drought) summer making me reluctant to steal resources to stock it (they absconded last summer)
more experiments next year:)

Dave
 
#39 ·
last year my bees in my observation hive appeared to this novice to have a shorter post-capping time than what's suggested in the literature and that's in the winter (when things tend to be slowed down not speeded up)
I can't imagine that forcing bees to emerge prematurely by limiting their developmental space could possibly be healthy for the bees. If there is any positive effect of using small cell.....that aint it.

If you want to hang your hat on a possibly plausable concept you should consider the idea that less free space in the cell might limit the movement of female and male mites, restricting their ability to mate.

I think you should give up on the shorter emergence idea....
 
#36 ·
> I've never seen any suggestion this had anything to do with genetics

That's why I suggested that asking might be worthwhile.
Its been years since this claim has been offered, and I'm
tired of biting my tongue and waiting for someone else to
suggest it.

> if you spend a year or two getting bees on SC comb you clearly
> haven't changed their genetics you've changed their environment

I agree completely with the statement above.

> what's your point?

I'll be even more clear, but I fear you won't like it one bit.

The point is that the entire "shorter capping time" explanation for
how small cell "works" is based upon a misunderstanding, one that
does not stand up to even a cursory examination of the genetic
basis for gestational development time, which goes all the way
down to each organism's cellular level.

> last year my bees in my observation hive appeared to this novice
> to have a shorter post-capping time

If you track the time with hourly photos (a webcam and some of
the shareware/freeware programs for "security camera" applications
will do this with ease) between egg laying and emergence for
a decent number of cells, you will find that the data describes
exactly what one would expect - a bell curve, with some cells
taking less time, some more, but most within the timeframe
listed in the textbooks. There have always been bees that
emerge "earlier" and "later", and the distribution of time is
"normal", meaning within the usual bell curve limits, which is
why they call it a "normal distribution".

Now, one could claim that a smaller bee simply needs less cells
than a larger one, but one must recall that undernourished bees
are also smaller than they might otherwise have been, yet they
don't tend to fall on the "shorter time" end of the distribution of
development times simply because they are smaller bees.

Yes, AHB do have a shorter worker development time, and it is
a genetic difference, one that shows the millions of years that
honeybees have had to diverge into distinct races of bees.

To claim that a smaller comb cell size could have effects that
have impact on the cellular development that drives the whole
process of bee development (egg-larvae-pupae-bee) is to defy
most of biology in one sweeping statement. To not know about
or have forgotten the cellular basis for the growth of living
things (the growth of a cell, the splitting of cells into two, the
time required for such growth, and so on) is perhaps understandable,
but becomes more and more annoying in direct relation to the
shrillness and volume level with which the claims are made in
support of the contention.

If one sees an overall shorter development time in one's bees, does
this indicate that one has bees with AHB genetics? Its not my place
to say, as the answer could be viewed as an accusation, but this is
yet another question that should be asked to someone whose
credentials are impeccable, and has actually studied the issue.

So don't debate me - go ask a biology major who works in
the field of science or education. They are not hard to find.
 
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