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Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

144K views 845 replies 56 participants last post by  Tim Ives 
#1 ·
A few years ago Ted K and I entered into a wager, that within 15 years even commercial beekeepers would be treatment free. In light of some comments made on the "unwritten rules..." thread about the impact of treatments on queens, I was wondering:

Are any commercial beekeepers experimenting with an apiary or so the possibilities of going treatment free? I realize it is an economic impossibility to risk your whole operation, but is anyone testing the possibilities with a small portion of your operation?
Regards,
Steven
 
#593 ·
> I wonder who evaluates the situation to determine losses were due to CCD? And how those evaluations were done.

You can read the details of the USDA ELAP Honeybee program here. Note that while this program covers CCD losses, losses do not have to be determined to be CCD in order to be eligible.

http://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/elap_honeybee_11.pdf

According to that link, the program has expired, but as that document was published in 2011, funding may now have been extended.
 
#594 ·
I will publicly display my ignorance here and say I didn't realize ELAP was still being funded. The NAP program is still in effect that will pay enrolees up to (I think) 50% of either their proven yields or a crop average for an area as determined by the USDA. Personally I think it's government largess that needs to go. I am sure I part company with many of my commercial colleagues on that one.
 
#597 ·
I will publicly display my ignorance here and say I didn't realize ELAP was still being funded. The NAP program is still in effect that will pay enrolees up to (I think) 50% of either their proven yields or a crop average for an area as determined by the USDA.
The ELAP program may indeed be dead, as the earlier link indicated. (Sometimes its difficult to tell as some govt programs seem to just keep getting extended.) :lookout:

The NAP program mentioned by Jim does cover honey as a crop. Details are here:
http://www.fsa.usda.gov/FSA/newsRel...ype=detail&item=pf_20110830_distr_en_nap.html

I did see a reference on that page to the 50% Jim mentions:
How Much Loss NAP Covers


NAP covers the amount of loss greater than 50 percent of the expected production based on the approved yield and reported acreage.
 
#598 ·
Wow, so even in 2012, the majority of Dees hives were deadouts. So looks like for someone trying to be treatment free commercially, it takes more than 30 years to get to Zen.

Dan was there any mention of her AFB problem?
 
#599 ·
I wish it were more practical to be treatment free as a commercial beekeeper, but I haven't seen that it is.

The proof is in the pudding. "I'm from Missourii, you'll have to show me." And two or three examples aren't enuf to make me want to follow their example. And I doubt that other commercial beekeepers, for the most part, feel differently.
 
#600 ·
Not going to spend much time participating in this argument. But I'm friends with the son of Bill Dahle who was quoted in the NYT "Mystery Malady" article. Met him several years back at a Marla Spivak queen rearing course. Great family. I sent him a note to say hello and sorry to hear about their bad year etc. Heard back from him today, he said their mite levels were awfully high last fall and it took a heavy toll. He also said they're getting great bees out of almonds and splitting them 3 for 1. Where is the mystery malady? I guess mites don't sell newspapers. I'm pretty sure I know what their opinion of going treatment free would be.
 
#604 ·
...it's amazing how people justify what they want to hear.

No, Allen did not visit Dee "recently"....2005 was the most recent.
No, none of the statements regarding Dee's numbers or production are accurate...and no, I won't give further details on her numbers....just as I won't betray the confidences of those posting on this thread who have told me things confidentially.
No, Dee doesn't keep nucs anywhere.

This had a potential to be an interesting topic....an opportunity that has been squandered by those that feel the best way to learn what someone else is doing by talking louder, and listening less. Honestly, you want me to give more details when the facts are trumped by speculation. If you don't believe what I say, why do you want to ask questions.

deknow
 
#607 ·
Dean,
I haven't seen enuf in the way of examples to make me think that attempting treatment free beekeeping on a 400 plus colony operation would be worth the risks and investment. I don't have the monetery cushion. And three or four examples tell me that others are also not yet willing to go that route.

Maybe, some time in the future things will be different, but it will take someone, a number of someones, running hundreds and thousands, migrating and doing pollination. That is the way I see it.
 
#608 ·
Well hopefully, one day we'll all be varroa mite treatment free, if efforts are continued to find a genetic solution, ie, resistant bees.

Not saying that day will come cos I don't know, but, here's hoping. :)
 
#609 ·
I'm not sure when I told anyone they should change what they are doing.

I tried to answer the question, "are there treatment free commercial beekeepers", and tried to explain at least some of the things they do.

In return, others have been happily spreading misinformation...I'm not sure why, but I fail to see how any of this is productive or in any way honest.

deknow
 
#610 ·
I don't think you told anyone to change anything either.
Yes, you answered the question and explained some of the things they do. It's not your fault that that is not enuough.
I don't know what's up w/ the disinformation. Maybe some folks don't see things the way you see things. Maybe some folks read what they do about Dee Lusby, from her Posts elsewhere, and read into them what you don't know from hands on experience. Which is not dishonest, just a different point of view about things.
 
#611 ·
Maybe some folks don't see things the way you see things. Maybe some folks read what they do about Dee Lusby, from her Posts elsewhere, and read into them what you don't know from hands on experience. Which is not dishonest, just a different point of view about things.
I've been through most of her yards 7 times over the last 6 years...sometimes working unsupervised doing splits and such.

Allen didn't visit "recently" to 2012 (has someone that has seen your hives 7 years ago seen them "recently"?).
The numbers cited for losses and production are factually incorrect.
I've written before on beesource about my observations wrt afb in her operation...I'd hardly classify it as a "problem".

Dee can be difficult at times, and she can be hard to understand....but she is honest as the day is long.

There are things that we can all have different opinions about, but facts and numbers are quantifiable. Honesty and forthrightness are qualifyable....I've offered nothing but honesty and forthrightness in this thread....it would be more productive if others did the same.

deknow
 
This post has been deleted
#615 ·
I responded to Sol’s question about where it was reported that Dee had had losses. The time reference in the exchange between Dee and Allen indicated current times.
That would be a good conclusion if it were correct....but for the third time, Allen hasn't been to Dee's since 2005. That is the fact. Your interpretation is flawed...probably from looking at things out of context.

A quote from Allen last December why are you down to 'several hundred" hives?
The word ‘are’ indicates a relatively current period…don’t you agree?
So what part of my post is dishonest? And, I suppose you are saying that Allen was dishonest in his message.
Hmmm, "several hundred" seems to me to include the 700-800 hives she is running by herself, with no help. She keeps less bees than she did when her husband was alive to work with her. None of this leads to any conclusion over a specific number of hives, nor a specific production/income....both of which have been cited, based on no reliable data....which is dishonest.

While on the topic of honesty….your assertion that Dee’s bees are not especially defensive strikes a bit of a dishonest tone to anyone who viewed the video of your visit to her apiaries….a video that is now, conveniently, removed from the public domain. I don’t blame you for removing it as it surely undermines your case.
1. Those videos were shot (and posted unedited) while doing about 200 walk away splits...essentially without smoke.
2. On separate occasions, several years apart, in separate yards, both Michael Bush and I have inspected hives (with others around) using a normal amount of smoke...the bees were entirely manageable. On another occasion (3 years ago, I think), Dee asked me to grab a jar of bees for a speaker that was doing an apitheripy talk...I smoked the bees, put on a veil (no gloves), pulled brood frames and rolled bees into a jar.
3. This is the most amusing accusation yet....that I pulled the videos. These videos have never been taken down. When I first wanted to put these online, Youtube had a 5 min. limit to the length of the video. At the time, google had an experimental video service that had no such restriction, so that's where I posted them. Since that time, google bought youtube, and eventually all the google video content was automatically migrated to youtube...where they still live today, with no interruption. Eventually the google video links were discontinued. I'd like to find the time to upload higher rez versions on vimeo (which is what I use for video these days). These videos have been "live" since 2008 with no interruption. When Bee-l was having this "discussion", no one bothered to ask....seems rather familiar a way to arrive at the "truth", eh?
Is it really more productive to say something has been taken down (when it hasn't) or to ask where it might have gone (which happened automatically which I couldn't stop from happening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Videos
On April 15, 2011, Google announced via email that after April 29 they would no longer allow playback of content hosted on their service, but reversed the decision one week later in lieu of greater support for migration to YouTube.[4][5] Google Videos was shut on August 20, 2012. The remaining Google Videos content was moved to YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoldenRuleHoney?feature=watch

I, ordinarily, believe that a difference of opinion between adults is normal. An interpretation of information can be viewed on opposite poles. I don’t believe that when someone takes a different view that it is the result of dishonesty. To do otherwise, in my opinion, is evidence of projection
Errr, ok, so posters here are making "honest mistakes" because they can't be bothered with the facts? They are "honestly" making things up? I don't think it's dishonest to disagree about something...but in an honest discussion, there is some responsibility for the participants to get their facts straight...and not make up "facts".

deknow
 
#618 ·
That is the fact. Your interpretation is flawed...probably from looking at things out of context.
Maybe…but you do understand tense? Are = present tense Were = past tense
Allen used the present tense.

Hmmm, "several hundred" seems to me to include the 700-800 hives she is running by herself, with no help.
Hmmmmm, no matter how much help she has….several hundred to me means around three hundred.
Errr, ok, so posters here are making "honest mistakes" because they can't be bothered with the facts?
Errr, speaking of 'honest mistakes'.
From BeeL
Dee Lusby January 17, 2013
And as you explained about Dean here......he did good filming, but not as you evidewntly see it, for the bees though flying having to reorientate with fast whole yard divisions were NOT stinging

Michael Palmer January 18, 2013
Well that's not true. I know Dean, and have talked with him about his
filming incident. Dean told me that there were so many stingers in his
sneakers that you couldn't tell what color they were.


 
#621 ·
Maybe…but you do understand tense? Are = present tense Were = past tense
Allen used the present tense....
Hmmmmm, no matter how much help she has….several hundred to me means around three hundred."
This is the problem. You are trying to have an argument with me about something you misunderstood Allen say ...and it's something that I actually know about. But either you think my wife and I "mistook" 300 hives for 700-800 hives through 7 visits _and_ that Allen visited Dee recently but I just don't know about it, or you think I am making things up.

Email Allen and ask him when he was there last, how many hives he thinks she has now, and what he bases that number upon. Figure it out.

Errr, speaking of 'honest mistakes'.
...
Michael Palmer January 18, 2013
Well that's not true. I know Dean, and have talked with him about his
filming incident. Dean told me that there were so many stingers in his
sneakers that you couldn't tell what color they were.

Well, I'll cut Mike some slack cause he's my buddy, and I understand that that far North the air gets pretty thin...(sorry Ian :lookout: ).
That's almost, sorta, kinda true...but certainly not an honest presentation of the facts.

I was dressed in an inspectors jacket (a wedding present from Dee...remember, this was a working wedding honeymoon...we got Dee an online ordination and she married us in the desert....was there something in this thread about a "normal lifestyle"?), white painters pants from walmart, and some brown woven nylon hiking boots.

Let's just say, the boots didn't go over too well with the bees. I still have one of the boots...I'll try to photograph it.

The bees were crazy for the camera (someone suggested the bees might think I was stealing their souls) and the boots.

They would cling to the inside of the ladies legs (there are a few crotch smoking shots in the videos...remember, these were unedited and unprepared...we were just going through yards and after a few days, I felt like I could try to narrate what was going on). Also, if you are going to watch these, please not that smoke is hardly used, except on us.

Once we started to tear through a yard, we would have bees in the air and around our veils...no clinging. I won't say I didn't get a few stings in a day, but it was louder than anything else.

So, after the first two days, I showed Dee my boots, and she dug into a closet and pulled out a pair of white leather sneakers....from a backpack she found, dropped by an illegal being chased by border patrol...in my size. Problem solved, no more ankle biting.

Every time I go back, my shoes are there....but I wear a different pair (also found in a backpack)...why? I stopped getting stung, but I got an itchy foot fungus! (I know, TMI, but it is what happened).

So, that is the story of the shoes....and they were covered. If you look at the pictures from our recent trip, you will see that they are still crazy for the camera, as Anita was there, so I could photograph a photographer.

Mike, we would love to have you back down south where the air is thicker, and you can recharge your braincells at the NETFBC. Do tell them how we fed you, treated you, and got you in front of a young, receptive and enthusiastic audience who were eager to LISTEN (well, Dee didn't like seeing that sugar in the hive..).

But it's ok you didn't tell them about the foot fungus, I don't think I told you that part :)


deknow
 
#614 ·
If you are recommending an unconventional method of doing business to a group of people who have been in that business for years….and when they ask for specific results….but you will only say ‘trust me’…..guess what their response is likely to be?
 
#619 ·
did you see the bees in the face of Dee working through the third hive? Yikes,

I dont understand, she keeps bees in a region known to have Africanized hives, she breeds her queen in her region, does one plus one not equal two here? Probably has some Africanized genetics , chances are high, look at how the bees are acting,

Working my hives, even in the foulest weather, I dont have bees that hot,
 
#623 ·
Gotta bear in mind that temperament is pretty much as important as honey production in my books... That's not saying I won't requeen a hive that's never stung me and doesn't make a decent amount of honey but who wants to get nailed every time they enter a yard? I do 90% of my supering in a t shirt and save the suit for splitting and pulling honey... Don't think I'd be ready to give that up
 
#624 ·
The same day that I told Mike the shoe story (which he misremembered in telling on Bee-L), he told me a story about a bee club that tossed a vendor out of a meeting....because the vendor was gay and the club was homophobic.

A sad story if true...but the _real_ story is that the club doesn't allow vendors at all...the vendor was told this when he asked to setup, he setup anyways, and was kicked out like any other vendor would be. I have firsthand knowledge of the incident and the club rules and practices.

I'm sure Mike didn't make that story up...but it doesn't make it true. It doesn't serve the truth to spread it.

deknow
 
#625 · (Edited)
there seems to be a common connection between commercial farmers and commercial beekeepers and i do know both very well. this whole chemical thing is so sad. i here from farmers well if i dont spray and use gmo seed and neo nic seed i wont get a good crop and my family will not eat.

and so comm. beeks say if i dont treat for mites, and when i say treat i mean use a chemical not soft but harsh, the bees will die and my family will not eat.

what i see both have in common is this. we are both only helping the weak survive. in nature it is only the strong survive. i dont see it any other way. we all got here because the strongest survived and the weak died. now that humans control everything on this planet all we do is help weak things survive a little bit longer. and we just keep breeding weaker and weaker everything. i mean people animals bees plants. i think that is the big message that guys like chris baldwin are trying to get across you have to only run the strong. not help the weak along untill they cant be helped anymore.

as a young commercial beek starting out trust me i need to eat just like you and i will do what i have too to eat but i will not turn my head away to any one that is trying to make the world a better place after they leave. i can only hope i can run my bees like chris someday with out chemicals and see that the bees are surviving because it works for them not me.

i really liked his quote. in the end you take nothing with you when you go and your supposed to leave the world a better place. i think he is some one that just might be doing that. thanks chis baldwin.


mike feist age 28, commercial beek 8 years strong. 400 my own hives still working for a 2000 hive outfit.
 
#631 ·
i here from farmers well if i dont spray and use gmo seed and neo nic seed i wont get a good crop and my family will not eat.
Well, ya,
lets get some treatment free wheat farmers and talk about their hardships too! There are many, but like the treatment free beekeepers it aint as rosey as many people would like to think
 
#627 ·
In this Thread, wasn't the AFB question sourced from Allen's comments on Bee-L? I have read a number of times, from Solomon if I recall correctly, that Dee doesn't treat for AFB and when she finds it she leaves it alone if it is a small number of cells. I guess she must burn those hives w/ higher numbers of cells of AFB. Not that I know. Is that your understanding Dean?
 
#628 ·
like i said i have to eat too. but my point was im not turning my head to the idea tf commercial is possible and actually i really hope i can some day get there. im not trying to stoke the fire. i just wanted to say im young and in the business and i hope to pursue what methods chris baldwin is using in his outfit. because i think its better than sitting on the same old wagon going down the same old road. and yes im on that wagon now but im one of the few just waiting for my chance to jump off. and thats how things change its that small percent of people willing to try something new or make a difference.
 
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