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Is Warre legal?

20K views 49 replies 10 participants last post by  HiveAtYourHome 
#1 ·
I checked and in Virginia I believe that it is, even with fixed top bars. Has anyone checked the specifics and language (not what is said at meetings but the actual verbiage) in other states?
 
#2 ·
Contact your VA State Apiculturalist and ask for a copy of the law. I don't know if I still have mine from when I lived in VA last, 1984. My memory is that all frames must be removable so the hive parts can be inspected. Inspectable. That's the crucial word.

When we built an 18th Century reproduction of a hive for use and display in an apiary on the Governors Palace Green at Colonial Williamsburg, Wmsbg,Va, we had to modify the interior so frames could be used to meet State Requirements.

All of that said, forgiveness is easier to get than permission.
 
#3 ·
I just checked North Carolina and I believe (though I'm not an attorney) that 02 NCAC 10B .0316 which governed hive types has been repealed and replaced by 02 NCAC 09L which doesn't even mention hive types, so ... Warre's with fixed bars are legal in NC.
 
#4 ·
Well dam! You are right. I just checked again. Three years ago they plugged the loop hole. "§ 3.2-4403. Duties of beekeepers. - Beekeepers shall: 1. Provide movable frames with combs or foundation in all hives used by them to contain bees"

I think I was legal for awhile. Its good to know that the government is efficiently creating more rules. Would hate to run out of regulations to comply with.

of course the regs don't define moveable. I can move my frames, it just takes a pry bar or a saw.
 
#6 ·
The letter of our state law reuires "modern" (post Roman?) Hives with removable frames, but the state inspector sez as long as he can inspect brood it's fine. So in TN it's open to interpretation. - probably like that all over. Be nice to your inspector, and keep your combs running straight.
 
#7 ·
Warre hives are legal everywhere no matter what the wording of the law is. Warre hives are easily modifiable. You can run with just plain top bars and let the bees do what they like. You could use top bars with comb guides. You can make half frames with or without comb guides. Heck check out the link.

http://www.thewarrestore.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1947015

You can even use full frames if you'd like. If you choose to use a Warre that has been unmodified then you will have to check the law. However if the law in your states requires movable frames then you just need to modify your style a bit. You would likely be able to make half frames and still be well within the law.
 
#12 ·
If you don't nail down the top bars (which is typical in a warre') and you inspect often enough to have the connections manageable, it should meet the legal requirement of "movable comb" which in my experience is how all 50 states are interpreting their laws, even if they specify (as I believe Florida does) "Langstroth" in their law. The purpose is to be able to inspect for AFB.
 
#15 ·
I've been re-thinking. Mine are all nailed down. I'm thinking adding plugs between the bars so that they will stay in place but be removable. I don't want to get involved in building frames or doing a bunch of frame by frame inspections. But I don't need a legal hassle the first time a neighbor gets stung.
 
#18 ·
I wish that the government would just butt out.
What sort of problems w/ government have you had?

If you knew your neighbors hive have AFB and everything you can do on your own to have your neighbor address this problem, wouldn't you want government to enforce quarantine and abatement orders to destroy AFB?

I don't think anyone really cares what you keep your bees in until it comes time for an Inspector to inspect them.
 
#19 ·
Well sure I'd want something done if it was something effective, but AFB spread all over anyway so it doesn't seem like what is done works. and maybe letting the decease wipe out the weaker bees might be a better solution. and the inspector can't inspect the local wild bees. and maybe its our approach to bee keeping that has lead to weak deceased bees so changing that approach is more important than my own bees. and maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about but things are going poorly for the bees so maybe neither does the government.

but as you point out I would be screaming for government assistance the first time I thought I needed it just like everyone else.
 
#20 ·
Well sure I'd want something done if it was something effective, but AFB spread all over anyway so it doesn't seem like what is done works. and maybe letting the decease wipe out the weaker bees might be a better solution. and the inspector can't inspect the local wild bees. and maybe its our approach to bee keeping that has lead to weak deceased bees so changing that approach is more important than my own bees. and maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about but things are going poorly for the bees so maybe neither does the government.
Removeable and inspectable frames of comb are not the cause of AFB.

AFB is not "spread all over anyway".

Education, prevention, and Inspection have taken us froma time, in the early 20th century, when AFB occurances were epidemic amongst the beekeeping industry which resulted in Modern Bee Laws and Apiary Inspection Services.

Our bees are not weak. Any more than someone who succumbs to a new virus, a new flu, is weak.

"local wild bees" are not a resevoir of AFB. When a bee tree colony gets AFB and dies, wax moth eats up the infected comb.

"maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about" At least you are able to recognize your condition. Keep learning and asking. Knowledge and experience is all around you.
 
#23 ·
but AFB really became a problem when they got removable comb,
Are you suggesting cause and effect? The AFB epidemic came decades after the advent of removable frames. Dr. Shimanuki writes in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" that the advent of movable frames probably introduced a major means of transmission." and that "Concern about American Foulbrood disease in the United states resulted in the establishment of today's apiary inspection programs."

Should we, as a peoples not as an industry, return to the use of nonmovable frames or comb w/in a mostly movable frame society? Is that the socialy respoinsible thing to do, considering AFB's presence?

How do Warre Hive beekeepers deal w/ AFB? How is it detected? By smell? Since it appears as though combs are not removed for visual inspection.

How are new colonies made? How does one "split" or "nuc" a Warre Hive?
 
#22 ·
Granted that is the way it seems to appear to have happened, but, I wonder if it would not have been so anyway because of the boom in colonies per apairy and revolutions in transportation? Afterall, didn't AFB blossom from the proximity of large numbers of hives? Granted we had numbers of hives in apiaries before, but these were log gums and skeps whose usual method of harvest was to destroy the hive or at least the honeycomb, which was rendered to use the honey and the wax.

Which makes me wonder when wax became a by product of honey production rather than the main product? In the early 1700s, in Virginia, wax was listed as a "Colonial Product" in the Governors Report. Whereas no mention of honey. Which may indicate something. It says to me that honey was not a commodity in Colonial Virginia and wax was.
 
#25 ·
That was my first assumption or wonder too. Then I saw that it was noted as an exported item. Exported to Madera. Where, I suspect, it was used in the wine industry, which Madera was so well known for, in some capacity.

Beeswax was at the bottom of the list of Gross Colonial Product (read Gross National Product equivalent) Lumber, Tobacco, Coal, and something else I don't recall being the other 4 items reported. Iron Ore maybe.
 
#27 ·
Cotton didn't become big until the 1800s, I believe.

I did my research when I worked at Colonial Williamsburg back in 1979 to 1984. I have my notes and a bee talk somewhere, but am mostly going from memory. I'm sorry to say I can't suggest an information source. Maybe if you could find a really good history book on the colonial history of the Virginia Colony, but I don't know one. Maybe contact Colonial Williamsburg's Reasearch Dept.? They should be glad to answer questions.
 
#30 ·
I'm not claiming that AFB was caused by or even related to removable frames, just that regulation seems to be ineffective. More of a desperate gesture than an actual solution. I guess I think that insects adapt very rapidly and that lots of bee hives allowed to live and die on their own might be as effective a treatment as anything we have tried so far.

As far as my colonies I don't feed or medicate. I split strong hives and ignore dying hives to hopefully come up with decease resistant stock.
 
#33 ·
How effective would reulation have to be to be effective above wht you see as ineffective? As far as AFB is concerned, just about the only disease which is regulated, percentages of hives w/ AFB are well below 5% in States w/ robust inspection services.

But, maybe you are refering to other pests and diseases? Varroa have killed more colonies than AFB ever has in all recorded history, yet you can have as many as you want w/out fear from Inspectors. The same w/ Nosema and viruses. But, what can those who regulate do? Nothing more than they are already doing, except perhaps Teaching beekeepers on how to deal w/ these pests and diseases.

I hope you do more than ignore dying colonies. They are the ones which may well have AFB. Something you would want to know before your strong colonies rob out the dead hives.
 
#31 ·
Well you could argue that the live and let die method would work to encourage tolerance to Varroa and tracheal mites, but this line of thinking does not apply to AFB. I believe the countries with the lowest incidence of AFB are the countries that across the board burn everything at the first sign of AFB. They do not mess with saving the bees/equipment. I want to say Sweden does this and has an extremely low incidence of AFB, but somebody should correct me if that's incorrect.
 
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