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Need advice on hot hive

5K views 25 replies 16 participants last post by  iivydriff 
#1 ·
Made splits from a friends hives yesterday. All was fine n dandy until we got in the bottom box of the strongest hive. We had protective gear on, thankfully, because they went from normal to ticked in 5.2. My friend who was on the other end of the barn about 75-100 feet away began to get guarded. Next thing you know she had several head bumping her and getting caught in her hair. Long story short, she took about 30 stings. Likewise, the two of us working the hives were getting headbutted pretty bad, which had no effect due to our Veils. But we began to walk away and kept walking, and walking, and walking, out in the field about half a football field distance away and about 15 bees chased us the whole way. This is only my second spring but my gut tells me these bees are too hot. To be honest I was thinking requeen, they aren't my hives but if asked to help, I would be scared to. Yesterday we didn't visualize either queen, but both hives had tons of eggs. We did smoke liberally. I would imagine they will want to leave them alone for a while, but my questions are:
1: what would you do next?
2: will the daughter queens be mean?
Thanks in advance for your help.
 
#3 ·
I know absolutely, almost, nearly, very little. :scratch: But, if it were me, I would re-queen at once. Then I would probably do it again in a month or two. Sounds like they have an attitude for sure, but don't let that stop you from being confident. Gear up and talk to them softly. Go slow.

Some of you with more experience might share a little bit here. . . . ?
 
#18 ·
In my view, its worth the investment to buy a gentle, (local if possible), queen (or queen cell) and introduce it a few hours after the split. A mated queen will get your splits online and growing at least three weeks earlier than letting them make a hot queen for you. Life is too short to live with hot bees. HTH :)
 
#5 ·
I had a hive going into winter this past year that was crazy mean they where so bad if ya got into the brood nest ya had to walk away 2 or 3 times they where on ya so bad.Any way they made it through a long hard winter and i was in them today{first time tems . where in the 60} and they where calm and easy to work and i found the queen in the top box. So thats the only time i have dealt with a mean hive. so this year it's normal .
I'm only a 4th year beekeeper. ..
 
#6 ·
I suggest holding off on any action. Bees become defensive when stores are short and for us, since the season is just starting I anticipate testy girls.

I did have a couple hot hives similar to your description that stayed just plain nasty. Genetics I'm thinking. One I gave away. I captured the queen in another leaving them raise a new one. That later became my most gentle colony. The captured queen joined the other in upstate PA surrounded by an electric fence to protect the bears.

Many find hot hives productive, but for me, too much hassle.
 
#7 ·
Are or were they Russians?? I had some russians that re queened themselves and they were junk yard dog bees. My bee buddy still talks about them. If so, it is a good possibility that is the case. It was several new self made queens before they calmed down. You could re queen to be sure. You could let them make a new queen but it is possible they could still be ugly probably not as bad. They could be fine. A roll of the dice.
You mentioned "when you got to the bottom of the strongest hive". It may be what is referred to as " big hive syndrome". Big hives have more guard and older forager bees which tend to be more aggressive/guarding the hive. They are usually in the bottom box, not associated with brood. Depending on the time of day, you could have hit the mother load. After a couple of stings, you are "marked. Did you smell "bananas"? If so, it makes you a target for all the bees as an intruder. Once that happens, it can go bad pretty fast. Gloves/jackets that have been stung before carry that pheromone for longer than you would think. I've had new gloves and washed jacket make a difference.
I've had hives do what you describe and be o.k. the next time. The bottom line is what is the level you consider acceptable. Hot bees are no fun. JMHO, pick a time in the early afternoon when the foragers are mostly out. Clean gloves etc. Smokem like you normally would, and see if they are still as bad. Then I would look at my options.
Rick
 
#9 ·
Thank you all. I'm not going to give up on them. They are Italian. I didn't smell the banana smell. But once they started stinging, it was a free for all. I did notice foragers coming in at a ridiculous rate loaded down, they were working their buns off, and they started accumulating in the air in front of the entrance. Hindsight, we were in there too long, and guaranteed next time we split, if there is a next time, it will be that each bottom board gets a deep and put tops on and be done.
 
#12 ·
Separately machine wash, but not often. Air dry. The softness will return with work. I mistakenly did all and then needed to bleach my jacket.

If I'm just cleaning curd, I'll wear them while washing hands with dish detergent. I'm small scale and now after near a decade, need to replace the elastic.
 
#11 ·
You are concern if your split will have the same genetics as well. I would say pretty much so now that you got them. When
this colony grow to full size later on some guard bees will show this behavior as well. Need to requeen later on if they do.
Hopefully that will work out for you.

You are concern about helping with a hot hive. Just let your friend know that there are hot bees during the inspection.
Let them aware of this situation now. On you tube there are vids to deal with hot hives. Divide and conquer.
Tell your friend to come to beesource as well. If not a problem with them then let it bee. 30 stings is too much for me.
Sometimes people will tolerate these bees thinking this is normal how the bees should behave. And this is how beekeeping
should be. So they tolerate them. I did my first 2 hives for all summer long thinking I can take them this way.
Got stung 6 times on my left hand at hive inspection still thinking this is normal. Nope, it is not! Now I know.
My first 2 hives acting like that chasing me inside my truck. Now I know that this is unusual in beekeeping. Because I keep
the gentle bees now. That there are gentle hives I can work with. I was lucky enough to bought one gentle
queen last year after this 2 hives got killed by the ants. So now I have 5 hives from this split that I am happy to work
with without a veil and gloves on. So far they only buzzed at my face no stinging yet. In comparison, I now know we
have the gentle type bees. Need to find them if you don't want to tolerate the aggressive type chasing you so far away.
Like others said it takes the fun out of beekeeping.
We don't have bears here. Give this hive to the bears is better! Now I am thinking to align the
outside fence with aggressive colony to protect the gentle ones inside the electric fence. What a great idea. Oh well, learn more as I grow!
 
#13 ·
My stongest hive will attack once your in the brood chamber, smoke buys you little time before they resurface and sit there waiting to eat you up. I have thought about requeening but havent, I don't like to smoke alot and I'm covered so I just let them be, it does get aggrivating when they follow me though....
 
#14 ·
I started using rubber kitchen gloves. I can wash them like I wash my hands then dry them. Once they wear out, or get too gunked up I toss them. It doesn't break my pocket book. I have used the vinyl and the purple EMS gloves. They usually do not make it through handling a lot of frames. They are not sting proof but a bee has got to REALLY want to sting you,(kitchen ones) even then it is not much. They don't seem to recognize the gloves as "animal" and move on. Most stings are because I pinched them. I also like the feel of things vs leather. Bit on the cumbersome side.
Rick
 
#15 ·
If you were to let them make their own queen seeing as how you are in Ky and the poplar flow will be in a few weeks away, you would miss most of that first flow, you might want to let them go until the first honey flow. My brother had a very hot hive like you describe last year and they made about 60 lbs of honey that first flow here outside Nashville.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Thank you cedar hill, this vid is incredibly helpful. I appreciate it! Hopefully, I don't need to end up doing anything. I have another hive that was split from the same hive, it was testy at first, then once the new queen was laying, they were calm as could be. I have learned that smoke is a must with these bees though. Even after they chill out.
 
#21 ·
Queens mate with quite a few drones having different tempered genes. SOMETIMES if we wait, the semen from the mean strain gets "used up" and she naturally goes to semen from another drone's gentler genetic strain. Of course, it could also be a skunk in your locale that is causing the problem. Look to see if there are scratch marks on the front of your hives. I would still requeen all of the hives with a gentler strain and try to get rid of the mean tempered genes in your area. OMTCW
 
#22 ·
I had a hive behave exactly as you describe (hundreds trying to sting, following us 100 yards away, head-butting our friends working in the garden 200 feet away) last weekend, when they were low on stores and preparing to swarm. Since then they have returned to a normal level of testiness, but as we want to keep our friends we decided to keep the mean genes contained, i.e. destroy all queen cells, pinch the queen, split, and requeen. It helped that they had already demonstrated subpar productivity last season, with a strong tendency to make more bees during the flow rather than making surplus honey.

While angry bees can be intimidating, with a well-sealed suit and gloves they literally can't hurt you. (And if one does manage to get in, it's still just one sting.) Thus I'm in favor of the "grit your teeth and bear it" approach to requeening/working with hot hives.
 
#23 · (Edited)
It looks like a season for angry bees. You may search beesource for many interesting threads on angry bees with many opinions. My feral/survivor bees were always on the more "protective" side. I did deep inspection a few days ago and expected quite a show. When in mood, they attacked even a smoker and it is difficult to use a camera - they block the view! To my surprise, they were calm, no head bumps... So, you never know! In my opinion, flimsy inspection could switch the trigger - more gentle you are, more gentle bees are.

I always feel uneasy with requeening. My entire point of having bees is to preserve their survival genetics. Unfortunately, it looks like that these traits come together with some increased level of protection. It is up to beekeeper to decide how much "protection" is too much. But, replacing the queen (fertile one) - you completely destroy the previous genetic for good or bad, it is serious consideration (at least tome)!

As for queen, which bees could grow instead mean one - bees genetics is very complicated. It is my understanding that "open field" grown daughter probably would be similar to mother. Moreover, it is documented that the crosses when pure-breed involved may be even more "moody". So, if you decide to requeen, as many already suggested, it should be good reputable fertile queen AND - eventually, you should replace all queens, basically, change the genetics of the whole population. It is recommended to go this difficult route if africanized bees are in your area.
 
#24 ·
I always feel uneasy with requeening. My entire point of having bees is to preserve their survival genetics. Unfortunately, it looks like that these traits come together with some increased level of protection. It is up to beekeeper to decide how much "protection" is too much. But, replacing the queen (fertile one) - you completely destroy the previous genetic for good or bad, it is serious consideration (at least tome)!

Pretty much where I am at too. I think local adapted bees do best. I can live with some attitude and force a re queen if they are junk yard dogs. Something to consider IMHO.
Rick
 
#26 ·
Ive aquired most of my bees from cutouts and catching swarms. Ive got some hives that used to be hot. I could work a hive and be done still have my full suit on when I get in the truck and there will be a bunch in the cab with me. I could roll down the windows and drive off and they would still be following coming in the truck windows 300 yards away. I used to think it was no big deal, but I hate working with them kind now. I had one hive I was just going to take a peek under the inner cover to check their progress. I didnt have my smoker. Man Im tellin you now they come out of there and they meant business. I had a full suit on and they set down on me and I was getting stung through the suit and one got in my hood stung me under the chin on my jawline. That same bee after he left his stinger was all over my face and buried up in my ear. Man I was done with them things. They swarmed and the next queen was gentle. I worked them yesterday they were just as gentle as could be. I didnt intend on them swarming and letting that mean queen get away I hope they died. It seems like where im at I can raise a queen out of the mean queens and they turn out gentle. Might just be the genetics in my area there are a couple more beekeepers in the area that have good bees so Im sure they are mating with their drones.
 
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