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Essential Oils source?

16K views 45 replies 16 participants last post by  Kieck 
#1 ·
I went searching for local lemongrass oil, and found that 'Sprouts', the local 'farmers market' type produce store has essential oils for aromatherapy, but when I told them I wanted to use it for an appetite stimulant for bees they stepped back and said they wouldn't recommend it, that it was strictly for aroma stimulation. Do you think they are just covering their hind sides or do you think that maybe there are additives that may be harmful to the bees?

Can't seem to find many sources listed on the internet on my side of town, let alone in town at all.
 
#2 ·
Hi beeherder,

I would think their just covering their butts. Seems now a days no one wants to extend their neck to long. My wife started making Fire starters out of pine cones and used cinnamon essential oils bought at a local health food market. WOW! Needless to say it got expensive. So being the cheap skate I am I turned to the internet and found these guy's after a good days worth of looking and researching. I was real hesitant because the price was so cheap. But being the cheap skate I am I ordered it anyway. Boy was I glad I did. Came just as they said it would, very strong and wonderful. I was afraid of it being cut with a carrier oil like I had read about while doing my search online. Anyhow I would recommend you take a minute to look here. http://essentialoils4less.com

Good luck and please share your experience.

Mike
 
#3 ·
The essential oils they are selling may not be food grade or intended for food grade use.

I get my essential oils from LorAnn

https://www.lorannoils.com/

https://www.lorannoils.com/c-14-essential-oils-for-culinary-use.aspx

Depending upon how much in the way of essential oils or other of their products you use, you can open up a wholesale account with them and order at a discounted price. So far, I have been ordering essental oils by the quart. Probably most beekeeper may not use that much but these are food grade essential oils and safe for your bees.
 
#7 ·
It's the "food grade" that's making them nervous, or lack thereof. They're not making the EOs so they're just repeating what their vendor has told them. Look for EOs that you can use to flavor hard candy, that's the most common food use I think.
 
#8 ·
There is a difference in pharmaceutical grade and aromatherapy oils. Even the pharmaceutical grades say don't ingest, they are mostly for skin application. I have a friend who has a vitamin shop and they don't carry lemongrass oil but he was able to order it for me. What are you wanting to use the lgo for, a feeding stimulant or swarm lure. It is very effective as a swarm lure and I would think the aromatherapy type would be fine for that. As far as other essential oils, I was able to find tea tree oil at Walmart, it is used as an alternative treatment for nosema.
Major
 
#9 ·
@RHF - Those prices are much higher than the ones on the site I was questioning. Thanks for the comparison though.

@ libhart & Major- Link I found several discussions about grades of EO's. Here is one excerpt
"Therapeutic Grade Essential Oils is a Misleading Claim
No governmental agency or generally accepted organization "grades" or "certifies" essential oils as "therapeutic grade," "medicinal grade," or "aromatherapy grade" in the U.S. There is no formally approved grading standard used consistently throughout the essential oil industry."


Thank you for the info, but I was just wondering if anyone had tried Wfmed.com since their prices were a lot lower than the other sites recommended here.
 
G
#10 ·
I have looking for lemongrass oil for my bate hives.
I have heard you have to use a food grade oil not one just for aroma.
Hear is what it says on some i have looked at.

"We are proud to carry only the highest quality 100% pure essential oils. These oils are GC/MS tested for purity and quality, are unadulterated and contain no fillers. Please see Essential Oil Properties for cautions related to any particular oil. Oils are for external use only and should be kept away from children"

Would this also no be safe for bees?
Harold
 
#12 ·
Yes Greg, I have ordered and used several different EO'S from WFMD in Burke, Va and I am very satisfied with their product. I use their 100% EO'S for brood enticement in early spring for rapid hive build up. I would strongly recommend them to all the BEEKS who want a good prodeuct for a very reasonable price.:thumbsup:
 
#15 ·
The essential oils they are selling may not be food grade or intended for food grade use. -Live Oak
More importantly, the essential oils they are selling are not registered and labeled for use as pesticides. The statement made in the shop told them that you plan to use them illegally. Any product used like this with the intent to kill organisms (with a few exceptions) are considered pesticides, and must go through safety and environmental evaluations with the EPA before being registered and labeled.

Products that are toxic to mites are likely to also be toxic to bees. A few chemicals may be so specific that they can target one without affecting the other, but most rely on -- in this case -- the size/mass difference. Mites are smaller than bees, so less chemical can possibly kill the mites while remaining below the lethal dose for bees.

Those sorts of details are considered in the label of a pesticide so it is applied at a rate and in a method that has been demonstrated to work with some predictability like this.
 
#18 ·
I think, the difference between "food-grade" and non-food grade is what was used to extract oil? Some oil extracted using organic solvents (non-eatable, I guess), some - using steam-extraction process. I would imagine that steam extraction is better for food. Another difference would be if the oil stored in "food-grade" containers or not. Eatable oil stored in non-food-grade container becomes uneatable... From another hand, if non-eatable oil stored in food-grade container, I do not think, it is more eatable because of this... As for bees - I do not believe that there is actually difference between food and non-food grade oil - amount of oil used is so negligible that it could not affect bees in my opinion. Any oil, which is permitted to use on human skin (diluted!), in my opinion, may be used on bees. If it is "food-grade" for human - it is not necessary the same for bees.
 
#19 ·
I was thinking about pouring honey over hive beetles with the intention of killing them. -Greg Lowe
I'm not sure how that might work, and I don't know how -- from a legal standpoint -- the EPA might view such an application. Certain "chemicals" are considered exempt from a need to be registered as pesticides. Water is one of those chemicals. I think sugar might be another, but I'm not certain about that.

I can't find anything about that on a label. - Greg Lowe
The "label" in this case would be the entire description of how and when it should be used, created in conjunction with registration of a product as a pesticide. If you look up "Apistan label," you'll find a multi-page document with information on how it must be applied to comply with legal use, where it can be used, some of the risks associated with it, how to handle it safely, what to do if accidentally exposed, and information along those lines. All registered pesticides have pesticide labels.

Nonsense. lemongrass oil is used to attract bees or as an additive to make sugar-syrup testier. -cerezha
Then it is not being used with the intent to kill an organism, is it? So, it's not even being used as a pesticide.

Water with few drops of liquid soap used to kill bees - should it be registered as a pesticide? -cerezha
Possibly. I don't know. Some essential oils have been registered as pesticides. Some can be very toxic. For examples of some, look here:

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/

I've applied garlic oil in a setting where it was registered for use against mosquitoes. The reentry interval -- the amount of time after it was sprayed until humans can go into that area without wearing protective clothing -- was 48 hours. A little garlic seems harmless enough, and adds some flavor to foods. The concentrated oil, even sprayed at relatively low rates, is fairly toxic stuff. As another example, nicotine is a fairly potent insecticide. So is pyrethrum. Both are chemicals produced naturally by plants (and simply extracted from those plants by humans, just like essential oils), and both are comparatively toxic.

"Naturally produced" is not the same as "nontoxic."
 
#22 ·
By the way, I do believe that DEET and permethrin are not essential oils. -cerezha
Right. I was simply trying (maybe by pushing it too far) to point out that "safe to use on human skin" does not equate to "safe to apply in a bee hive." And, still, unregistered pesticides used in bee hives are illegal. You might deem the risk acceptable for your purposes, you might never get caught, but it's still illegal.

Is this thread about the source of essential oils? -cerezha
Yes, it is, but thymol is the only one to my knowledge that has a formulation registered and labeled for use in bee hives. The rest are illegal for use as pesticides in hives.

If someone started a thread on the best formulation or source of DDT for use against Varroa, I hope that someone would quickly point out that such use is illegal, regardless of the formulation or source.
 
#23 ·
I'm not one to argue. So I will just state that Kieck, you were the first one in this thread to suggest using EO's as a pesticide. Before that the only stated use was as a feeding stimulant. Nice strawman you built to re-direct the thread. But I found out what I needed to know. Thanks again genie for the helpful info you provided.
 
#24 ·
Huh. Could have sworn I read something in this thread about using one as a fungicide, a class of pesticides. Also thought tea tree oil was brought up in this thread, hardly an oil that I would imagine would "stimulate" bees to feed. With the frequency that essential oils are mentioned as treatments against various pests, I believed folks reading this might be considering that as well. My apologies for the digression.

At the risk of digressing in a different way, seems to me that when not much is blooming, sugar syrup without anything else added to it is a pretty strong "feeding stimulant." Then again, I prefer to forego feeding syrup as much as possible.
 
#27 ·
Who interested, I summarize registered "biopesticides" (floral oils) in the table below: -cerezha
I didn't see any legal listed sites that included "in bee hives" or "in syrup to feed bees." Did I miss one?

Perhaps you also missed another detail, such as this is NOT the treatment-free forum? -Rusty Hills Farm
No. I'm not advocating "treatment free" here. There is a difference, I think, between "treatment free" and "not using illegal treatments."
 
#29 ·
I didn't see any legal listed sites that included "in bee hives" or "in syrup to feed bees." Did I miss one?
I have no idea - go to the EPA site and do your own research, than - report there. I shared information as a courtesy to beesource members - use it, or not.
As for legality - in US it is very unpredictable waters because "law" is mostly based on "precedent" - if judge decided once - this decision is a foundation to further decisions of similar kind... judge may decide that lemongrass is poison and so will be unless higher court "undo" previous decision... there are million ridiculous "laws" in US especially on local levels - somewhere holding brown bags in hands was prohibited... Also, all "laws" from the past are enacted unless specifically cancelled.
 
#28 ·
I guess there's two ways you can look at things regarding legal. One way is that it is legal only if it's explicitly stated to be so. The other is that it is legal unless it's explicitly stated that it's not. So depending upon your presupposition your definition of legal may differ from someone else's.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I guess there's two ways you can look at things regarding legal. -Greg Lowe
At the risk of beating a dead ... "straw man," I guess, I'm not certain this matter is as ambiguous as what you suggest. Pesticides are registered and labeled for specific uses, or they are illegal for those uses. The labels of pesticides list where, when and how they can be used. They also state, "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with this label," or similar verbiage.

Just as an example, no where is it expressed stated that it is illegal to mop a kitchen floor with chlordane to control ants, yet such a use is illegal.

I did pull up the list of exempted pesticides -- those deemed safe enough that they require no registration for use -- and that list can be found here: http://www.epa.gov/PR_Notices/pr2000-6.pdf

Lemon grass oil is listed in the appendix, meaning, I think, that lemon grass oil can be used freely against whatever pests you'd like inside beehives or in syrup.

With some caveats, I think it is still worth noting that use of some of the products (such as tea tree oil) in ways that they are not labeled and registered is illegal. For the good of all involved and the integrity of the beekeeping industry in general, following state and federal pesticide laws are critical.
 
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