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Resistant bees, productive or not

36K views 133 replies 29 participants last post by  josethayil 
#1 ·
I post this thread because I had developed a bee that was varroa mite resistant. This line was later incorporated for the genetics into other resistant lines that have been developed. The problem was the bee that was developed lost the ability to produce the really big crops of honey that honey producers so depend on to make a living. The bees maintained smallish colonies and produced crops in proportion. It turns out that a lot of the resistant lines of bees (russians) do not produce as good a crop of honey as some more susceptable bees. This has been documented and studied. So is it better to have a bee that requires some treatment but produces big crops and stays alive because of the treatment. Or is it better to have a totally resistant colony that produces smaller crops and the cost of the treatments remain in the beeks wallet. Keep this civil, I did not post this to start world war 3 TED
 
#30 ·
:lpf::lpf: Yep! You answered that perfectly! lol. We use 2-3 deeps with 1 or more mediums or shallows on top... Our Sunkist lay 2 deeps and 1/3rd of the 3rd box (whether shallow, medium, or deep)... anything above that is surplus, as she will stop laying in the third box during the summer heat so they can use it to build up winter stores.

Now take the above scenario and think of it after adding the VSH trait... The more VSH drones that the VSH queen has mated with, the more VSH workers will be present in the population... keep that in mind...

The issue is not the population of foragers during the later months, but rather the population of foragers during the early flows and most importantly, the timing of brood rearing... the more "picky" the queens get about when they cut back their laying, the more complex the issue becomes... Just as they are building up nicely, the flow hits... but you have tons of house bees and not enough foragers to benifit... during that flow, the queen is laying (brood has to be fed), but when it starts to dwindle, so does her laying... Next flow hits, you have tons of new brood hatching and house bees moving up to foragers, the queen starts laying like crazy, and they consume a lot of the stores for rearing brood... Flow dwindles, so does the laying... Now the hot dry summer is here... the brood that was being laid so heavily in the second flow is now hatched and going through the motions... then after a long dry summer, the fall flow kicks in... Tons of foragers, tons of nectar, tons of new brood... Winter should be easy... Surplus, not so much...

The best honey production queens will build up early and continue laying consistantly throughout the season, but at a slightly slower pace and in a slightly smaller area... so that the work force is consistantly in rotation and they never miss a flow... BUT at the same time, they do not use as much to feed brood either...

The VSH trait means some brood is lost, house bees are busy uncapping and cleaning instead of preparing strorage space, foragers come too late to catch the best flows... but there is no stopping this trait as it is one of nature's responses to our mistakes... However... It also means healthy colonies that are not dwindling year round due to mites and diseases... we simply need to remain flexible with our management practices until this trait has settled and we know exactly how to manipulate them at that time... I encourage producers to make their usual manipulations at slightly different entervals and record the results of each alteration... This would be a good step in the right direction... Just a little foresight... I try to stay ahead of issues... I think we all have been through enough "Re-grouping" from pest after pest after disease... you get my point...;)
 
#31 ·
As a medic, scientist, and amateur beek (read: I'm picking my first package in just a few days) I must ask two questions:

1. Are we talking short term or long term gain?

2. How dependent are we, as humans in the US, on honey?

Why I ask: first, the medic in me says, 'the strong will survive and the weak will not', while the scientist says, 'what makes 'the perfect bee'', while the complete bee newb says, 'how can my colony thrive with a minimum of interventions on my part?'

If we are to create a honey bee that tolerates - or, preferably, thrive - in the face of parasites then we can't keep chemically treating them for said parasites. If this means less honey production then what of it: do we want survival or money? Humans do not need honey but many make their living from it, so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek? I've no wish to disparage the commercial folks - I myself was in the Army for a long time and now work at the VA so I know all about 'doing the best you can with what you've got' but this whole issue seems to me to be devolving into one simple issue: them, or us?
 
#32 ·
As a medic, scientist, and amateur beek (read: I'm picking my first package in just a few days)

If this means less honey production then what of it: do we want survival or money? Humans do not need honey but many make their living from it, so what will we have: long term survival of the bees or the commercial beek?
why not both?
you haven't even picked up your first package and already you think the "commercial" beekeeper is a bad thing.
I would suggest that if it wasn't for the commercial beekeeper there wouldn't be enough bees left for you to even buy a package.

frazz
 
#33 ·
I never said a comm. beek was bad: I said we were going to end up choosing between production (and therefor the continuation of honey as a commercial crop) and long term survival of the bees (which would be in favor of the hobbyist).
 
#34 · (Edited)
The bees aren't going anywhere... at least I can say MINE AREN'T. Simply because I REFUSE to allow some student to decide what kind of bees they want me to raise this year... The greatest threat to the survival of the bees is the one that is never really mentioned... but you just pointed out... the over eager acts of those assuming that the bees of the US are "weak because they die when you introduce parasites and diseases that they would never have encountered at such expansive rates in a natural state... the importation of fruits, vegetables, etc.. has always and will continue to bring new and deadly threats into our country... the government puts regulations on the experts to keep them from importing important maternal lines into the country to stop inbreeding, yet the government itself keeps bringing in pests and diseases then selling the "silver bullets" that THEY import from other countries... only to add insult to injury by adding lines that are hundreds of years away from becoming acclimated to our climates... these "overnight cures" may address one problem temporarily, but soon add a whole new list of issues for our industry to suffer through... this is why I keep pushing for people to think first, and take the long road to success instead of the "silver bullets" or letting their bees die off, taking entire maternal lines with them... the bees are not the problem, they never have been... the "fix" is the problem...

The discussion that we were having is simply for the benefit of those that make their living from keeping healthy, productive bees... honey production WILL decrease... that is inevitable... but whether it drops quickly and destroys those companies that depend on it, or decreases gradually and allows the price to rise as the production lowers is up to us...

If those that are accustomed to getting 1.50 per pound suddenly only produce half as many pounds, they will go out of business and their bees will likely die either from excessive splitting for salvage or from the next threat that comes along...

But if that same producer sees a slow decrease in production, they will have a chance to slowly raise their prices and thus the market will adjust to the production levels of the bees.... then the producer stays in business, the bees stay in the hives, and when the next big threat comes along, they will have the resources to do whatever is necessary to protect the bees from it.

Again... the bees are not dying because they are weak... they are dying because people are weak... keep this in mind next time you see melons, peaches, and strawberries at the grocery store in winter... we HAVE to start letting Americans feed America and the leaders of the industry that truly care (and have the most to LOSE) provide for the bees.

Please keep in mind that the commercial bee keeper has more to lose than any usda lab, hobbiest, or retailer if the bees were to die off... for the vast majority of the commercial bee keepers, their job is not just about making honey, but more so about keeping bees... to make honey, they must first make bees... if they were not interested in having healthy, thriving bees, they would not be in business for long at all.

Commercial beekeepers are those that have been taking care of bees full time, usually all of their lives, and in most cases they are the grand children and great grandchildren and great, great grandchildren of the people that were caring for bees all of Their lives... the founders of the industry are commercial beekeepers, they know bees... usually better than they know humans... keep an open mind and don't fall victim to the "hype" and falsehoods that you hear... that is all just intended to split the industry to boost certain markets... we are ALL bee keepers, we ALL care about the bees, and I assure you that the commercial beekeepers will gladly help you and anyone else that shows interest in bees... I also encourage you to tour a real commercial operation... you would be surprised at just how great their bees are and how much they know and do for ALL honey bees everyday.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Long term survival of the bees is important to everyone whether they be commercial or hobbyist. If the bees die out then EVERYONE on the planet loses. Without bees no one has honey money or the majority of their food. Immunizations are used for humans to build up resistances. A SMALL dose of the illness is injected into our bodies thus allowing us to learn and fight it off if we ever come in contact with it. If a foreign disease showed up and we had no medicines to combat it and our bodies had no experience with it we would die. Same with bees. They are treated to combat the pest through time and small levels of the pests presence the bees learn to combat them as well. There also is no "them or us" in this industry. The bees come before most peoples family and especially before themselves. This is a statement from experience not an assumption. Most commercial beekeepers are doing everything they can to help the survival of honeybees. These guys started with only a few hives, worked like crazy to get where they are, i don't believe they just stopped caring about the bees survival. The commercial guys just have to work harder with a LOT more bees to keep them alive as well as provide honey, pollination (so we can continue to eat) as well as more bees to other people to try to keep alive. I am treatment free but only because someone took the time to build resistances in my bees by "helping" them to survive before i got them.
 
#38 ·
I'm a sideliner with two goals - happy, healthy, thriving bees chemical free; and financial income from honey and wax sales.

When we speak of Us/Them in reference to beekeeping, bees, mites, and honey production, my first thought is Us = bees and their stewards/partners, the beekeepers. Them = the mites, and other pests/predators. As several others have pointed out, the bees will survive without us, but how will we do, either commercial, hobbiest, or sideliner (to say nothing of the food producers) without the bees?
Regards,
Steven
 
#39 ·
I feel that you will have bees that are both pest/pathogen resistant and productive in the near future.

They've only recently sequenced the honeybee genome as well as the genomes of a number of its pests and pathogens.

It's just a matter of time.
 
#42 ·
Well if you are going to go that route then you could also factor in being able to sell untreated honey for a premium price (assuming/hoping folks use actual honesty in labeling). For example, I'm always happy to pay way more for honey that I know to be less treated and local. All my friends feel the same way.
 
#44 ·
I can't comment on treatment used in the US but in New Zealand we use Bayvarol and Apivar, these are removed before the honey boxs go on,
The wax we gat back from our cappings is sold to a buyer who exports it. The wax goes through rigorous testing for all manner of chemicals, to date no residues have been found in our wax, If they aren't in the wax they wont be in the honey.
We rotate our combs out of the brood nest replacing the 2 outside frames every year, meaning no comb in our hives is more than 5 years old.

We dont treat for nosema or foulbrood or use chemicals when storing empty supers the only thing we put in our hives is the miticides.

There's more chance of having our honey tainted by the lady down the road spraying her roses or the council worker up the road spraying the gorse on the roadside than we are by anything we use in our hive.

frazz
 
#45 ·
I will answer this question. The cost of treating a colony of bees. Well, we have somewhere right at this moment 2400 colonies of bees. I am not really sure because the bees are really healthy and we are still splitting more bees. Healthy bees build back up quick, even after splitting, and will still try to swarm. That is just the nature of the stinging little devils.....So to treat that many hives of bees, we will have to purchase 40 pails of "Blue Bucket", known as APIGUARD. One bucket treats around 60 colonies of bees. A bucket will run somewhere around 90.00 right off the top of my head....So that equals to a 1.50 a colony. Since this operation is an Intergrated Pest Managment operation, we will rotate out the following year say with Apistan. Which cost around a 1.85 a strip.--The last I bought cost that two years ago. This outfit is also a low dosage outfit, so we have always used just one strip to the hive. This year we will rotate out for real with the new formic acid strip. The cost of placing these medication in my colonies is negligible....We are already out in the beeyards working with the bees, so this is just one more thing we do before we leave the yard. Generally we have a dearth between Chinese Tallow and Cotton. That is when we treat. So the cost of Diesel really can not be brought into the equation. So if honey is going to be 1.68 a pound for grades 1-5 (Souix honey grading system) then you can say that the cost of treating a beehive is one pound of honey. This is cheap insurance to keep something as precious as a bee, alive from season to season. Right now we have about .75 mites to the hundred bees. Some hives you can not even find them. Though there are the VSH genetics present in these bees. If a package of bees or a nuc averages around 90.00 then it will take 60 pounds of honey to replace a hive that dies of Varroatosis. The equation is 60 pounds or 1 pound. It does not take a rocket scientist to do the math. TED
 
#46 ·
I am not really sure because the bees are really healthy and we are still splitting more bees. Healthy bees build back up quick, even after splitting, and will still try to swarm...
...If a package of bees or a nuc averages around 90.00 then it will take 60 pounds of honey to replace a hive that dies of Varroatosis. The equation is 60 pounds or 1 pound. It does not take a rocket scientist to do the math. TED
You buy a $90 package from somebody to replace a lost hive? Isn't it way cheaper and quicker to take a split or make a nuc from your booming hives?
 
#48 ·
The "if" was for the people that buy bees and do not treat them. Then they die. Thus they are out of 90.00. I produce bees for sale. We use our own bees internally in my operation to make up losses. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Mark knew where I was coming from. TED
 
#49 ·
Replacement cost of a package of bees or nuc--$90.00 from your reputable breeder or 60 pounds of honey....Cost of preventative treatment against varroa mite--$1.68 or 1 pound of honey. It is cheaper to treat than replace. TED
 
#55 · (Edited)
True... if you replace lost hives by buying packages and nucs rather than by making your own nucs and splits. It seems to me that would apply mostly to hobbiests, who aren't usually dependent on honey production for a living anyway.

Don't get me wrong... I feel there is a happy medium to be found too- and I suspect the smarter commercial BKs already use IPM and are looking into introducing a percentage of resistant genetics to some degree. Yet the bottom line is pollination and honey production for commercial bk survival, and they do still need to treat in some manner or to some degree until the 'perfect bee' is either bred or has adapted on its own. I assume nobody 'wants' to spend money on chemicals and meds and treat their bees if they could get along just fine without. I think we are all really on the same side- bee health, productivity, and survival.
 
#50 ·
The point that I think is being made here is that you can have resistant/productive bees and apply IPM to further reduce losses.

Since no one has been able to say precisely why or how bees become resistant (with a few exceptions), who is to say that this isn't the case in a commercial operation that applies IPM?

Just because you have resistant bees doesn't automatically preclude treatments. Especially if it makes sense for the bottom line.

This seems to be a case of a philosophy of beekeeping vs a business model.
 
#52 ·
WLC, so many of the non treatment people have adopted a live or die mentality.You need to read Dr. Russells post in the earlier part of this thread of how bees become resistant to mites. Yes, there is VSH genetics in this operation. The rest of the bees from the breeding experiment were put back into the general bee population of this outfit. Over time the genetics from their offspring have spread. Not all the hives have this recessive gene in them, so we treat. Also I want a bee that produces honey,not cleans house all the time. There is a happy medium somewhere between the two. TK
 
#53 ·
Yep. However, there seems to be more than one way to view this.

For instance, I need to be able to demonstrate Honeybee disease resistance.
My first choice is hygienic bees because you can show how they clear frozen brood comb as a measure of the hygienic trait. 'Survivor' bees don't lend themselves well to a demonstration of resistance. There are too many unknowns.

Here's my point; there's nothing that says I can't treat hygienic bees. Nor am I precluded from finding the right balance of the hygienic trait and productivity (although I need a demo more than I need productivity).

However, I am following a philosophy (no treatment, and natural comb) as part of the science. I need to be able to take concrete measurements as part of that.

If I was doing this for profit, the 'philosophy' would go out the window. I would have to make it work, and the VSH and IPM approach makes sense to me as a way to get a handle on resistance, productivity, and profit.
 
#54 ·
Glad to see that somebody on the nontreatment side of beekeeping has figured out how I and other commercial beekeepers think and operate. VSH trait is slowly developing across the board in most of the populations of honeybees in the USA. I remember years ago, when Varroa first infested hives, they would be dead in three or four months tops if left untreated. Now Varroa can take three to four years to kill a colony and sometimes does not..Why, natural resistance. TED
 
#57 ·
Omie, we are all on the same team. I am a pre 1984 beekeeper. I remember what it was like keeping bees and not having all the pestilence that bees have today. The money spent on treatments would be better spent elsewhere. But the cost of replacing bees, whether you split them yourselves as we do. Or buy them is also an expensive proposition. Slick, you must consider as a commercial beek, I buy things in quantity and get a pretty good price break. Now I have not priced what the cost of treatments will be for this year. But the plan is to use the new formic mite strips. So that might raise the ratio up. TED
 
#58 ·
Omie, you have to consider the cost of the lost increase... ie, in Teds operation, he could nearly double his total number of hives each season, as part if a ten year plan, this expansion would increase the current value of his business, because of the future productivity... the more losses that he insures, the less the average expansion can be... over ten years even 10% loss could equal thousands of hives that wouldn't be able to be counted on.
 
#59 · (Edited)
We do know how and why bees become resistant to varroa... the main debate has always been whether to get them there by letting them build resistances over time by keeping the mites in check with treatments, breeding in foreign strains that have already been exposed to mites long enough to build resistances, or letting all of the "family lines" that are not yet resistant enough to fight the mites on their own completely die out leaving only the few lines that are currently resistant enough...

The effects of commercial operations that keep their maternal lines alive long enough for them to develop resistances is actually better for our future in that we only have so many lines to work with in the first place... if we were to let the vast majority of lines die off, we wouldn't have enough lineages left to continue for long before we start to see a gross expansion of inbreeding...

If we keep breeding in foreign strains that are far from acclimated to our multiple environments, who will be able to provide spring packages, queens, etc?... who will pollenate the early blooming crops?

We do not have to treat, but if it were not for those that do, we would not have enough lines to continue selecting and breeding for these resistances...

For the hobbiest, its not that big of a deal to lose their hives, in that it is not enough to effect the national bee populations... but if the commercial operations lost their lines, the WHOLE nation would eventually feel the sting... NOT because of a loss of bees for sale, wax production, honey production, or revenew... But because of all of the lines.

There is a bit more science involved than most think... it goes both ways as well.. The small time sideliner may keep buying bees for decades and eventually have a yard or two of resistant colonies, and although they are relying more on luck, they can then offer queens that a commercial operation can use a few of into a few yards to keep adding diversity that has a known resistant origin... Thus the experimental sideliner can be an asset... The hobbiest is also an asset to the industry in two ways... 1st they provide funding by purchasing their bees and equipment... organizing a large scale developement is very expensive, and they provide their share of support by simply buying bees... 2nd they provide a link to the communities for support... the commercial guys are few and far between and lets face it, most of them wouldnt want to talk bees to someone that has NO IDEA at all... so the newbee and hobbiests are communicating the needs and concerns of the industry to those that they know during their learning... its a great help, SO LONG AS they are not given the wrong impression (such as the commercial guys are killing the worlds bees and hobbiest are the only ones that want the bees to survive... as was mentioned earlier)... Bad info like this spreads MUCH faster than good info... everybody loves controversy...

All in all, we are ALL bee keepers, we ALL love bees, there are no "sides" to take, no "groups" to be classified as, no reasons to fight... everyone is doing what they should do, EXCEPT for those that seek to divide the industry for their own personal gain or lack of tact.
 
#63 ·
We do know how and why bees become resistant to varroa... the main debate has always been whether to get them there by letting them build resistances over time by keeping the mites in check with treatments, breeding in foreign strains that have already been exposed to mites long enough to build resistances, or letting all of the "family lines" that are not yet resistant enough to fight the mites on their own completely die out leaving only the few lines that are currently resistant enough...
What factor or combination of these factors do you think were at work when bees apparently became successfully resistant to tracheal mites?
 
#60 ·
Well stated RR.
I too believe that both commercial and hobbiest are doing different yet valuable things that really can compliment each other in terms of the long term benefits to bees, bee breeding, and successful beekeeping. Variety in genetics, approaches, and methods maintains vitality.
 
#61 ·
Hey Ted: I experimented with B-Weaver queens myself I purchased the Taylormade queen I had a real good outcome with that queen. That queen produced a entire hive body full of of honey and 3 shallow supers. I never treated these bees the entire summer or winter. I was going to raise queens from her this year and a sow bear and cubs ate well. These bees were bred in australia and they can't send due to sickness on that continent. I was going to outfit all my hives with that strain. Currently I have been removing colonies from homes I hope to monitor them to see production of honey etc. Maybe hit a home run one hive collected last year produced 90lbs of honey and started from foundation. Later
 
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