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Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

103K views 469 replies 49 participants last post by  mike bispham 
#1 ·
OK, so I've been treatment free for a while and its becoming apparent that something needs to change. Most of my hives get through the first year, but in the second year they die out. Example - I had six hives this year. Two of them were survivors from last year and four of them are new this year. This fall the two year old hives collapsed. One week they are full of bees and looking healthy a week or two later they are gone, with very few dead in the hive. (This happened in late October in Oregon where the temps have been freezing at night)

Both of the two year old hives were from "survivor" stock. One was a nuk purchased at Old Sol and the other was a split from a local hive that has been around for a number of years. I simply cannot get a hive into year three, no matter how what I do. The hives had excellent stores and I even fed pollen patties (from Mann Lake) just to help out. (first time I have done that)

I have no doubt the bees are leaving because of high mite loads but since I don't treat with chemicals I'm not sure what I can do. My hives are made up of a mixture of small cell boards and foundationless frames.

Open to suggestions as I'm very near going back to treating my bees with a miticide.
 
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#165 ·
I winter them in 2 configurations, the 3 framers are wintered 3 to a 10 frame box with dividers. In this configuration they all share the heat and get through the winter fine. The other configuration is 4 frame stand alone nucs. Losses for both are virtually zero.

The reason for doing this is I have new spring queens available when no one else is selling them, and there is no early drain on hives to set up nucs, they are already set up.

It should be said our winters are very mild here.
 
#167 ·
OT, I for one am certain that genetic mite tolerance is real, but very rare in unselected bees. You could stand to import some genetics that have the trait in a selected form. It would make a dramatic difference in the way you manage mites. Said another way, as long as you treat for mites, you will continue to have problems with mites.
 
#169 ·
so no real break if you immediately hang a new queen in a fresh split that contains some brood?

and about a 2 week set back in brooding if you place a ripe queen cell in a split that contains some brood?

vs. a substantial break (at the risk of getting laying workers) if you make or allow a split to be broodless?

whalers, it might be helpful if you decide on how many production hives you would like to keep. if that number is 10 or less, i would consider doing what you can to get your existing colonies to survive the winter, and then perhaps perform 'cut down' splits on your strongest ones next spring. overwinter the splits in a ten frame or double five frame and use them to replace any losses. you can also sell them in the spring if you are lucky enough to not have any losses.

the cut down split method will also help with swarm prevention. you can read about it here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm
 
#170 ·
i've been giving some thought to this brood break thing, and i'm wondering if the benefit observed regarding mite control has more to do with the introduction of a fresh queen rather than the brief pause in brooding.
 
#181 ·
My best guess is that there are a few things going on. Reduction of mites through the brood interruption (Older mites missing their last reproduction opportunity before they die). Poor breeding conditions for the remaining mites due to over crowding in the new queens first batch of brood, and a young vigorous queen that out breeds the mites. This becomes important at the July brood break as it changes the dynamics of the colony from an established colony that will wind down brood production and population to a building population. We shouldn't underestimate the power of a new queen.
 
#171 ·
OK, so I've been treatment free for a while and its becoming apparent that something needs to change. Most of my hives get through the first year, but in the second year they die out.
Two years is the line that divides true miticide-free beekeeping, and neglectful beekeeping.

To get a colony to survive longer than 2 years without miticides requires an "A" game, some luck, and a good location.

Without at least two of these things, you will have a very frustrating and expensive hobby.


Open to suggestions as I'm very near going back to treating my bees with a miticide.
I have kept my bees without miticides for several years now, and have been able to increase both my hive count, and my survival rate. But what I'm realizing now is that my bees are struggling more than they are surviving.

That is not enough for me, and I wouldn't consider it appropriate for any of my other pets.

Come spring, I will start treating my hives - Although probably only half.
 
#173 ·
Next year will be my 5th season with no real miticides, unless you want to count "folk" remedies like creosote smoke, Natural cell size, planned breaks, and the occasional spearmint oil in the syrup. I also realize my luck might have been a lot different in another location with a different set of bees, using different methods. We are so dry here (it is one of the driest places on Earth) that many of the varmints that affect other places do not thrive here. SHB is a prime example.
 
#175 ·
I have made no effort - other than a couple of packages of Koehnen's bees back when I first started - and a few Beewever queens someone gave me - all of my bees are from my region. I do not import from out of state.

The Koehnen's queens are no longer around.
 
#176 ·
Do you monitor your colonies for mites and breed from those with low counts? This was how I identified a highly mite tolerant queen back in 2004. It directly led to me going treatment free in 2005 because I had a known source of mite tolerant genetics.
 
#177 · (Edited)
I am not very diligent in it. I used to use screened bottoms and sticky paper, but now mostly just check the capped drone brood every so often. I normally breed from my colonies that have survived over 3 years with no assistance. I have observed several of these hives grooming mites from each other (yes, I have sat and watched them - like a fool). It seems to be a common trait amongst the local survivors. Some of them seem to have it, some of them don't. You would be hard pressed to find a mite in some of these hives. On the other hand, I had a hive of domestic cordovans that was LOADED with mites. So I know the mites are out there.

There was a hive study conducted in New Mexico last year which analyzed the pests and diseases in the hives of yards containing 11 colonies or more. They concluded that the incidence of varroa mites in this state is much lower than the national average. Not sure why. Don't know if it is because they don't survive here as well, or if maybe there is something in the genetic make-up of the background survivors that tips the scale. I do know that African genetics has an element of mite suppression in it (it seems to affect the mites reproduction by making them sterile) - and it isn't just through swarming. Maybe we are seeing this leak over to the survivors here in the colder regions where those Brazilian bees do not predominate, along the edge of the migration line. There also appears to be an element of African in our NM survivors that pre-dates the Brazilians, maybe this is the difference? I am not a scientist so I can only speculate. All I really have is the results I get, and I am rather unscientific about it I hate to say.

I do know that there are not very many beekeepers in this area historically, and the bees have been on their own for a long time. Les Crowder once told me that any feral bees you see around in NM can be assumed to have a resistance or they would simply not be there. There was a period when there were no bees or swarms here, so they have made a comeback of sorts. I am a bit concerned about new beekeepers importing bees from other regions and watering down what we currently have in some of these bees (the "sky island" bees).

I try to maintain a limited number of hives (25 hives), so I have to be real careful who I breed from and what I keep from my removals. A lot of the removal bees don't make the cut - mostly the ones from the lower desert due to a variety of reasons. If they act-up, I see a lot of mites, or I don't like them for some reason, they either get combined with another hive or requeened. If they behave properly, they aren't "runny" or "swarmy" and survive, I will breed from them. I say that, but at this time I currently have only 2 truly feral hives out of the 25 total. The rest are either bees descended from the ones I breed in the mountains (feral origin), or from beeweavers I acquired in trade (4), or feral derived hives I got from other regional beeks. I am very curious to see how the Beeweavers do compared to my other bees. So far my opinion on them is a bit mixed. I try not to mix the different bees, and the Beeweavers are currently on their own yard near a large Alfalfa field.
 
#179 ·
I'm re-posting this. Anyone who is treatment free MUST be aware of the mechanisms bees use to remove varroa mites.

The known mechanisms for varroa tolerance include:

Varroa Selective Hygiene - disrupts the reproductive cycle of the varroa mite
a. Detect infested larvae
b. Uncap infested larvae
c. Remove infested larvae
d. selection involves testing for hygienic behavior and removal of infested larvae

Allogrooming - bees grooming each other to remove mites
a. Varroa mauling - chewing and biting the mites which kills them
b. Selection involves monitoring for chewed mites on the bottom board

Breaks in brood rearing - during brood breaks, varroa cannot reproduce.
a. Heavy pollen collection - bees that collect pollen heavily are more sensitive to lack of pollen and shut down brood rearing earlier.
b. Sensitive to nectar dearth - bees that react to nectar shortage by breaking the brood cycle.
c. Selection involves monitoring for bees that reduce brood rearing when pollen is unavailable.

Reduced days to worker maturity - fewer days gives mites less time to reproduce
a. some worker bees mature in 19 days vs standard 21
b. using small cell foundation and timing brood emergence
c. Selection involves identifying the small percentage of colonies that mature workers in fewer days.

The bees that survive best and produce decent honey crops seem to combine various levels of VSH plus Allogrooming. Reduced days to maturity also plays into the mix just a bit, especially for small cell users.
 
#182 ·
makes sense db. i think a vigorous new queen and the ability of an establishing colony to out breed the (split) mite population is what is responsible for the successes. for splitting not to interfere with honey production in my location the splitting would have to done after the main flow, and the colonies would require supplemental feeding to allow them to become established.
 
#183 · (Edited)
Thanks Fusion-Power. I seem to be covering most of those bases in my general operation. I have not really tested for VSH, but have observed Allogrooming in my general population. I would imagine they are related. The Cordovans i mentioned earlier WERE NOT VSH and it was quite obvious. They could not keep up.

I do practice timed brood breaks, and use mostly foundationless natural cells for my brood-nests. For the aforementioned Cordovans, I removed the queen for a month and fed them syrup laced with Spearmint oil, so i guess that is a soft treatment by definition. I also smoked them heavily with creosote bush smoke and gave them new drawn comb. It seems to have helped and they have re-established themselves. We will see if they pull through the Winter. If they do not, I will not grieve the loss of their genetics.

Rhaldridge, My observations with the Beeweavers is that the particular ones I got are a rather hit or miss affair. They seem to hold their own as far as treatment free goes, but several of mine were very slow to get established compared to their feral derived cousins. One queen was particularly slow and was evenually re-queened with one of my own. As a whole, I just don't feel they build up as fast or are as acclimated as the ones I can raise from my own stock. They seem better than the regular domestic variety, but not quite up to the same level as the bees I have been raising for the last few years. Somewhere in the middle I guess. Oh, and every so often you get some really mean ones. Luckily I did not.

I worked a hive of Beeweavers for a local beginner, to diagnose a possible disease problem, and those bees were far meaner than any I possess or would want to possess. She was just starting out and didn't know the difference. I offered her one of my queens, but she did not take me up on it. At the time, we were in the middle of the main honey flow, and I was not even using smoke on my hives. Her bees tore us up.

That is part of the reason I moved my Beeweavers to an isolated alfalfa field, because I don't want them near humans in case they get overly defensive. I keep 12 of my feral derived mountain bee colonies in my back yard on my 1 acre lot with very little issues. I will not do that with the Beeweavers - just in case. I am sure they are good bees, so far mine seem to be somewhere in the middle. One good thing is that they are colored different and easy to spot. They have whitish striping on their abdomens that my feral derived bees, which are normally dark with brown or grey banding if any, do not possess.

FYI about the splits I do - We have two flows around this region of NM. The Spring flow (Mostly Mesquite) is the one I harvest from, then I split around Mid-Summer, and let the bees have the next flow (Chamisa/Wildflowers/Etc.). Sometimes I break up the oldest hives in the Spring and restart them as Nucs. On a good year with lot's of rain (if we ever see it again) mesquite will bloom twice. The limit of my migratory operations is to cart my production bees up and down the mountain to catch the mesquite or wildflowers. I only have a few on alfalfa as a test right now. I am not sure I want to expose them to agricultural products, and I get a ton of honey off the mesquite if I do it right.
 
#184 ·
I've been treatment free for years, but something has to change for me too, just too many losses from mites. What I have been thinking about doing this season is a brood break followed immediately by a mite trapping. Here's the details: In my area the main flow ends around mid-July or so. At that time I will go into every hive and remove the queen and two frames of brood to a four frame nuc that I will set up right next to the main hive. The nuc will also have a frame of food and an empty drawn comb to go along with the two frames of brood w/queen that I removed. The original hive will raise a new queen. A few days after the queen emerges I will take a frame of unsealed young brood from the nuc and exchange it with a frame from the hive with the new queen. That frame of brood that I put into the original hive will be removed as soon as it is capped and put into a freezer to kill the mites. That frame of brood most likely will be thick with mites seeing as how that is the first brood that those mites have had the opportunity to infest in a couple weeks. I believe that giving them a brood break and trapping mites in that donated frame of brood will deal the mite population a severe blow going into fall. Not only that, but the main hive will have a new queen which will lay at a high rate once she gets mated, and will outbreed what's left of the mite population going into fall. Hoping that this will improve my winter survival rates greatly.
 
#186 ·
Interesting Jmgi, I have used virtually the identical method, just, requeened with a cell rather than let them raise their own.

I had high expectations but although the mite count was greatly reduced, they seem to have a way to keep numbers up, I think numbers were reduced around 40% or so. However for you, since some of your bees are already surviving, maybe a 40% reduction would be enough.

I have wondered if it would work better if drone brood was used but did not actually try that.
 
#187 ·
Oldtimer, are you introducing the cell after a week or so, or immediately after dequeening the hive? As I was thinking through the process I would use, I initially thought of using a frame of predominately drone brood, but then I thought that might be hard to come up with that many frames of drone brood if you are doing this to many colonies at once as I would be doing. I am thinking that even a frame of worker brood will work very well because the phoretic mites "should" be desperate to get into any cell of brood after being deprived of it for a couple weeks. I am really anxious to try this whole thing out this season. The only downside is having to remove the frame of mite infested brood and freezing it, and having to do it to lots of colonies at once. But, if it works as well as I hope it does, I promise not to complain about having to do it in the future.
 
#188 ·
As the purpose was to give a brood break and hopefully force the mites into the "sacrificial" brood comb, I left them queenless for a time, then went through and destroyed queen cells at the same time as putting the new queen cell in. However it was several years ago & cannot now remember the exact time frames, it could have varied between different hives also.

However the bees I used could probably be described as having no mite resistance whatsoever, if you are using bees with better resistance you may well get better results. I just remember the pain of it because when I thought of the idea I felt somewhat elated and thought I may have cracked it. But the poor results where a bit of a let down emotionally.

However you have different bees, different location and are a different beekeeper. You may get great results. I'll be watching with interest when you update. :)
 
#193 ·
I've wondered about that theory. I watched a video with Mel, and he seems to feel that the great effect of a brood break is that when brooding resumes, too many mites will infest each larva and they will starve before emerging. At least that was what I understood him to be saying.

Why would you make your brood break right after the main flow? Wouldn't you get more honey if you did it during the main flow, so that you would have more foragers (not having to mind brood) until the hive requeens itself?
 
#190 ·
I would consider my bees to have very little mite resistance, I'm not using any particular kind of resistant stock, just basic Italian's. I have read of many, many beekeepers having good success with brood breaks alone without using a "sacrificial comb", so I have to believe that going a step further has to be a benefit, maybe even a huge benefit, at least I'm hoping. The way I see it is the mites are breeding machines, interrupting that cycle has been proven to hurt their reproduction to some extent, and the longer you can keep them from having that reproductive medium (the brood) before introducing that single "sacrificial comb" the better, at least from my prospective. Maybe someone else has done just exactly what I have suggested doing, and can share their outcome with us.
 
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