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"No Treatment of Honey Bees Report" by StevenG

93K views 163 replies 44 participants last post by  oparea 
#1 ·
Here it is. Between Barry's schedule and mine, it's taken a while. And do not ask me what I think of the word processing program that we have to use for this.

Here's the link: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

DO NOT post comments there. We'll discuss it here.

Now, as background, this report came about because folks wanted data - dates, activities, results. This is not a scientific study, it is simply a report that will, when concluded, track 6 years of all of my hives. Beginning 4 seasons ago, and concluding in Dec. 2011.

As indicated, it is a real pain getting the data in there and formatted, so please forgive any errors. I have all the summations in, and details on 3 on the 14 hives. I have the data for the other 11 hives in my word processing program in my computer, and will get it transferred as soon as possible. I hope you find this interesting and helpful. If not, just ignore it.

For all the other reports and data that has been generated as a result of our discussions a few weeks ago about "Treatment Free", I think its exciting!
Regards,
Steven
 
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#118 ·
From what I've read, the pumping action continues to shove the barbed stinger deeper, at the same time it pumps venom into the "victim."

But the reality is, it takes a certain amount of foolishness :lpf: to stand there and watch the venom sac do it's work. I didn't have my reading glasses on, so didn't get a good view of what was going on, but the stinger sac seemed to change from beginning to end of the pumping cycle. Seemed to whiten up and flatten out towards the end, before I scraped it off.
Regards,
Steven
 
#122 ·
It is a rather clever stinging mechanism. Actually it is made up of two lancets, which are barbed, and a muscular sting sac which keeps pumping, as does a heart taken out of the body of a live frog.

There is more in this world than in your imagination. To present a poor paraphrase of something William Shakespeare wrote.
 
#123 ·
>That would be one clever sting mechanism.

It is. With two barbed halves one half can hold while the other drives in further and the the other half holds while the first drives in further. Thus, even though the stinger is no longer attached to the bee, it continues, not only to pump in venom, but to drive in further as well, just as Mark described.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Sting1.JPG
 
#125 ·
>It just baffles me that something of this complexity and ingenuity could develop in nature for an insect. I can't get my head around it.

That's why a lot of us believe there is a creator... hard to fathom the complexity of a stinger let alone the behavior of building comb, or adjusting the input of pollen or even flight without a master designer. The complexity of one cell boggles the mind and now you put those together to make a bee and put those together to make a colony...

Or maybe it's all just a freak accident...
 
#126 ·
> <snip>

That's why a lot of us believe there is a creator... <snip>

Or maybe it's all just a freak accident...
I hear you, Mike. I personally don't believe in luck or coincidences. You're right, there are many, many more incredible things about honey bees other than the stinger...the bee dances, the workers knowing what their jobs are from day one and onward, the virgin queens knowing where the DCAs are located, the ability of the house bees to communicate to the foragers what is needed in the "house", etc., etc.,. Some incredible details, but so subtle.

Ed
 
#130 ·
That is intriguing, Mark. Thanks for clarifying it for me. The fact that the virgin has the option of heading out in any cardinal direction or point between and being able to find a dca is truly amazing. The exertion that she uses to propel her long body, dodging birds and dragonflies and the like come in to play...it's amazing that so many make it. I've heard it said that the virgin mates on multiple days...after the first day do you think she knows where to go looking?

Ed
 
#132 ·
Well, Mark, do we even know how the drones themselves find the DCAs? It's not like there's a map tacked to the hive wall from the last years drones showing them how to get to the cemetery or ridgeline or woodline or whatever...but they return to the same area year after year from what I've read. There's some questions that I believe will never be answered by man. :)
 
#133 ·
No, I don't. But I have a book. :)

Under "Drone congregation area" it says, "The fact that drones and virgin queensfly to specific areas, now called drone congregation areas for mating, was discovered by Zmarlicki(Zmarlicki, C. and R.A. Morse (1963)"Drone congregation areas, in Journal of Apicultural Research 2: 64-66) Drone congregation areas have been found in nearly all parts of the world where Apis mellifera is established. DESPITE MUCH RESEARCH, WE STILL DO NOT KNOW HOW THEY ARE FORMED OR WHAT ATTRACTS QUEENS AND DRONES TO THEM. Where mating takes place in other Apis species is unknown.
"Our best theory at the present time is that an anomaly in the earth's crust is responsible for making certain areas attractive. We have been frustrated in our search for their origin because of our inability to learn how they are found by the insect. IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY VARIOUS PEOPLE THAT ODOUR AND VISUAL AND MAGNETIC CUES ARE OF GREATEST IMPORTANCE IN BEES FINDING AREAS, BUT NO ONE OF THESE SUGGESTIONS HAS BEEN SUBSTANTIATED BY DATA. "

Caps used to highlight pertinent parts to reply to what we were discussing.

There certainly will always be unanswered questions to ponder and investigate. Let's not give up on that search.
 
#134 · (Edited)
For those following my report on treatment-free beekeeping, as previously reported this year (2012) I lost 2 of 32 hives overwinter (6%). Today I was able to check the remaining 30. Of those, 2 are somewhat weak but rebuilding, the rest are doing great! I have a couple of gang-busters going strong, the usual suspects. I supered all hives with one, either shallow or medium super. The hives in full sun had nearly no hive beetles in the beetle jails. The four hives in partial shade had a couple dozen dead beetles in the traps. I cleaned and refilled all traps. In one of the hives in partial shade I was able to execute 7 beetles...very satisfying.

Because of some changes occuring in my life and family situation, unfortunately I will not be able to manage the hives this year as I would like. Do not have the time to do swarm prevention, thus I've just supered. Will check as I can, and will report periodically how things are going.

Just to remind any new folks to this thread, since inception, I have done NO mite treatments, and have done NO mite counts. I have tried Russians, Purvis queens, MnHyg queens/bees, and B. Weaver packages and queens. I do walk-away splits. I messed up big time when I tried to go foundationless a couple years ago, took two years to straighten out that mess. Not the bees fault, mine. I started with two packages, have built up to 30 this point. Plan to get to 50, but that will take a couple more years, as I have to stabilize now at this plateau.

Feel free to ask me any question here, or pm me. Personally I like to keep the discussion on these pages, as I believe it helps us all learn. My open-mated walk-away splits are doing as well as my store-bought queens. So the genetics appear to transfer acceptably well, at least here in SE Missouri.
Regards to all, and may you have your best year yet!
Steven
 
#135 ·
Are you doing anything else to control the beetles besides those traps? Ground drenching etc..... Up to this point I have provided no treatment except sugar dusting, which I stopped because it seemed more cruel than just letting them sort things out with the mites.

I saw SHB's in one of my out-yards about 15 miles from most of my hives. I would like to keep them isolated, but I don't know if that will be possible since beetles can fly. any advise?

Also what are you loading the traps with?
 
#136 ·
LetMBee, you can't keep them isolated, because, as you mentioned, the beetle can fly. I use plain mineral oil. Depending on the size of the hive, and how much of a problem the beetles seem to be, I'll have from 2 to 5 traps in a colony, with a max of two traps per box. I do not use Gardstar.

From what I've read, except for in the south, if you need or use Gardstar or some form of ground drench, it's too late for your hives. As I understand it, the beetles simply must be taken care of in the hive, before they get to the point they head to ground. But like I said, in the south, it is vastly different.
Regards,
Steven
 
#137 ·
I had 16 last summer. We had a bad drought here in Texas and I lost 2 to???, so I had 14 going into the winter. And we didn't have much winter to speak of this year. The middle of January thru the end of January, weather and time permitting, I went through all 14 colonies. Each had eggs, grubs, and sealed brood except 1, which had ample population but no evidence of a queen. I dropped a frame of eggs from my favorite colony and a week later had several queen cells. At the time I checked and they had queen cells, I dropped 2 frames of sealed brood [mediums] from two different colonies to keep their population up before winter die offs. A couple of weeks later I had a queen laying good patterns.

I have since recovered a swarm in mid flight, and split that colony and 2 others fixing to swarm to a total of 17. All are doing good.

I do not treat with anything except screened bottom boards [on all but 3 which have solid bottoms], and will be converting about 1/2 of my apiary this year to solid bottoms because these are doing better than the rest. If this proves out then I will be going to all solid bottoms.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger
 
#138 ·
Thanks for the post, Danny. I run screened bottom boards on all my hives. I think I'll follow your example and try some solid boards on a few hives and see if that makes a difference on wintering. Though our winter was quite mild this year.
Regards,
Steven
 
#139 ·
Forgot to mention in my first post, that I am on small cell using the mannlaked medium plastic frames. I am having a lot of ears breaking off the plastic frames so I will be going to wooden frames with starter strips. Still considering how I will do that.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger
 
#140 ·
UPDATE!
Worked the bees today. Of my 30 hives, I lost one...it had been weak, and post mortem indicated queen failure. There was brood three weeks ago. Found some emergency queen cells along the top bars where the cluster had been. My guess is the queen failed, colony dwindled, cold snap finished them off. Very few bees in the hive. Plus a vacant mouse nest in the bottom deep box.

The remaining 29 colonies are all over the board, as usual. Some booming, a couple struggling. There's a chance I'll lose one of my Russian colonies, I'm watching it. Another queen issue.

I did hive a swarm last Saturday, and it's going gangbusters now. So I'm still at 30 colonies now, with the swarm and with the dead-out. Foir those reading my blog linked in the first posting here, the colony that died was #15.

Of my three apiaries, I'm having small hive beetle problems in my home apiary. Killed 17 beetles in two colonies. Didn't see any in the other two colonies at home. I keep the traps filled with mineral oil. Bees seem to be doing a good job. These colonies are in partial shade...unfortunately I don't have any place else to keep them here.
Regards,
Steven
 
#145 ·
UPDATE!!!!
It has been an interesting time since my last report... I'm struggling with some colonies, due to PPM and queen issues... having to deal with home repairs is keeping all my spare time away from the bees.

In preparation to move my trailer with 19 hives on it to soybeans, I pulled supers this weekend, and extracted 352 pounds of honey! That was WONDERFUL, since last year I got nothing from that particular location. The honey should all have been clover, but it turned out to be a mixture of clover and wildflower. In a couple of days, I'll have the hives ratchet strapped together, all the hives affixed to the trailer, and have them moved to soybeans, and new supers installed. At that time I'll go thru them, and deal with any problems I find. I'm anticipating problems with 3 colonies. oh well, life goes on.

By the way, one of the colonies, led by a year old B. Weaver queen, produced 95 pounds of honey.
Regards,
Steven
 
#147 · (Edited)
Ok sports fans, the harvest is over for me, and it was GREAT!!!!
To update, I do not treat in any way, shape, or form for mites. Do not even do mite counts. Have not done prophylactic treatments for nosema in 5 years.

My total honey production this year from 23 colonies which produced honey was 1,539 pounds. That is 66.91 pound average, in SE Missouri. I had 5 non-productive colonies, so if you factor those into the average, the average drops to 54.96 pounds.

Production by queen:
- Feral swarm hived in April - 26 pounds
- B. Weaver queens - including Mutts (11 hives) - 998 pounds, 90.72 lb. average
- Purvis queens/mutts (5 hives) - 306 pounds, 61.2 lb. average
- Russell queens (installed May 11 in splits) (3 hives) - 81 pounds, 28 lb. average (I found it interesting the feral swarm hives on foundation did as good as Russell queens given to single deep splits with existing brood, bees, and stores.)
- Russian queens/mutts (7 hives) - 111 pounds, 15.8 lb. average.

To get an honest comparison between Weaver queens and the Russian queens, part of the season I had 7 Weaver hives in a locale similar to the Russians. Those 7 Weaver hives produced 298 pounds, for an average of 42.57 pounds per hive, nearly 3 times the production of the Russians.

The conclusion for me is to switch from Russians over to B. Weaver queens, and throw in another line for genetic diversity.
Had I practiced better beekeeping this year (time and family constraints dictated otherwise this year) I would not have lost some hives over the summer, and my 5 non-productive hives might have been able to produce. But then again, maybe not.
Now to get them ready for winter.

For me, what this proves is that with the right genetics, you can be treatment free, and produce a nice quantity of honey. My two oldest colonies are 6 years old, in the back yard, and produced 79 pounds for one, nada for the other (queen laid throughout supers, had to leave). The second oldest hive is 4 years old, and this year it produced (I LOVE this queen!) 170 pounds! I had six hives produce over 100 pounds each, 1-170 pounds, another 175 pounds. I had four other hives produce between 75 and 100 pounds. And that, my friends, is treatment free, in SE Missouri. Not in fields of clover or alfalfa. I did have some hives on soybeans though.
Regards,
Steven
 
#154 ·
Celebrating your Home Run this year Steven!

Ok sports fans, the harvest is over for me, and it was GREAT!!!!
...snip...For me, what this proves is that with the right genetics, you can be treatment free, and produce a nice quantity of honey....snip....The second oldest hive is 4 years old, and this year it produced (I LOVE this queen!) 170 pounds!...snip...
Regards,
Steven
Normally, I wouldn't want to see a 170 pound queen, but not true this time: I think I'm in love too ;)

I ordered some BeeWeaver queens today for splits, please Steven, tell me your four year old, 170 pound, queen is a BeeWeaver queen!
 
#149 ·
I would say we can't measure the success of treatment free on honey production alone but also first measure how many survive the coming winter. Like mine, many of your hives were this years starts. I am treatment free also, produce approximately 2.5 tons of honey, but suffer massive winter losses by so far undiagnosed causes. So I rate myself and my bees a failure as a treatment free beekeeper. Remember President Bush on the aircraft carrier? "Mission Accomplished". Report back in April. And five years from now.
 
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