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Moving from ok queens . . . to great queens.

110K views 189 replies 30 participants last post by  dtrooster 
#1 ·
This is a very simple question, that I already know has no simple answer.

I've tried my hand at raising queens this season. My success rate isn't as high as I would like them to be, and my queens arn't as big and productive as I would like, but they are queens none the less.

But in raising queens, what do you do differently to make those monsters? Those large, fertile, productive queens?

In a sense, what do I need to work on, what do I need to improve on to make better queens next year?

I'm obviously in a direction forward, but I'm afraid I'm a little lost on what I should be doing to improve. Any thoughts? Books, articles, techniques, strategies?

Like I said, I know there is no easy and simple answer, just looking for thoughts.
 
#2 ·
But in raising queens, what do you do differently to make those monsters? Those large, fertile, productive queens?
The very best possible nutrition and copious feeding by a very strong hive from the earliest possible age.

:) Simple enough answer?

.... followed of course by very good matings with a genetically strong and diverse range of drones.

Seriously though, are you grafting (assuming you are) as young as possible? Is your hive as strong as possible and wealthy with young nurse bees? Is there a good variety of pollen in the hive and plenty of honey? Plenty of foragers?

Tell us what system you're currently using and we'll be better able to suggest upgrades.
 
#3 ·
I bleive to make big queens you should start with a large queen to graft from . Then your cell starter should be packed with bees and they should be well fed.Then place them in a strong queen right hive above the excluder so the bees can finish the cells .
This is just my two cents Johns Bees
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
Sorry my first post was very basic. I've found that if I start a thread with a monster post, most people don't read it, lol.

I have been grafting (not priming), using the youngest larvae that I could find. I've used a swarm box, packed with as many nurse bees as I could fit in there, to draw the cells out. The swarm box would consist of 1 or 2 frames of honey, with the cells cut open (about a dozen hive tool gashes) and one frame of pollen (no brood). I let the swarm box sit for about two hours (or so) before I introduce the grafts. I left the grafts (using JZBZ wide base cells) in the swarm box/cell starter for approximately 24 hours. After that I transfer the grafts to a cell finisher (I use the largest hive I have going, placing the grafts on top of an excluder with the queen in the bottom box, of course).

I've been using this calendar to co-ordinate my days: http://www.thebeeyard.org/queen-rearing-calendar/

On day 13 I move each cell that has been drawn out into a two frame, medium mating nuc. I've been using a 10 frame box divided into four sections as mating nucs.

Up until this point, I've been letting the queens open mate with whatever drones are available. I've only been doing this while I learn the basics. For next year I plan on flooding the area with drones, using drone frames, of the specific genetics I would like to use.

So that's what I've been doing. As far as moving forward, I guess I can explain a little bit more about what I know, and why I'm having a hard time moving forward. The way I see it, a monster queen is brought about through a grafting system with four main puzzle pieces: 1) a young larvae [as young as possible] that is grafted into the cup, 2) an over abundance of nurse bees, 3) healthy bees [the nurse bees that is], and 4) plenty of drones to mate with. Obviously genetics would play an even larger role than any of the above pieces, but for the sake of "technique" I can't really include genetics. We work with the best that we have.

So moving forward, obviously I should get the youngest larvae. They should be attended by the most nurse bees I can get, that are overly healthy. The area should also be flooded with plenty of drones. All of that I realize. But what I don't know is what I need to improve, or how. Do I need more nurse bees? How to I put more in a box than I had before? (sounds like a dumb question, I know) Do I need "healthier" bees? How do I make them healthier, and better fed? Both on a flow, and off? How do I know if I need healthier bees, or more nurse bees?

Hopefully that gives this thread a little bit more direction.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I'm sure there are as many different ways to accomplish this as there are beekeepers. But, this is how I grow about 80%+ nice, big, fecund, queens.

I'm lazy, so I have eliminated any steps in the process that I consider unnecessary. Basically I use one queenless nuc box to start and finish my cultured queen cells.

I use a deep, 5-frame nuc as my queen cell starter/finisher. I stock it with two frames of honey/nectar/pollen and two frames of sealed/emerging brood, leaving space for one two-level cell-bar frame, or two single cell bars (one between each honey/brood frame pair). If there's a honey flow on I don't feed syrup, otherwise I feed syrup. Even if there is plenty of pollen coming in, I still like to feed pollen substitute patties of my own recipe. I raise each patty, on a rack of 1/2" square hardware cloth, so the bees can access the patties on all sides (two patties without a quart syrup jar and one with a syrup jar). I place an empty medium nuc super on top of the lower nuc and to cover the feed. I also shake in a few extra pounds of nurse bees I've harvested from several large colonies. Once I've finished putting everything together, including a bar or two of grafts, where I prime and graft, picking larvae I can barely see, even using a bright LED headlight and magnifying glasses.

I keep them stocked with frames of emerging brood, feed, check regularly for rogue queen cells and remove them.
 
#15 ·
Thanks to everyone who has given such insightful responses. It's good to know there are several individuals on here that are so interested in helping.


I use one queenless nuc box to start and finish my cultured queen cells. . . Even if there is plenty of pollen coming in, I still like to feed pollen substitute patties of my own recipe.
I have been reading about the advantages and disadvantages of using a queen-less cell builder with a queen-right cell finisher over using a queen-less starter and finisher. Generally, from what I have read, the queen-right finisher has the ability to provide better nutrition to the grafts. I may end up trying a queen-less finisher, but the jury is still out on that one.

Like others on here, I would be interested in knowing your patty recipe. If you are willing to share it, that is. I've tried feeding patty supplements in the past, but I've found the bees will only take them if it's too cold to fly (late fall and early spring [or winter]). Right now they can get pollen off of weeds, which still tastes better than any substitute I can give them. If I knew of a better mixture, however, that may be different.

specialkayme ; I think more bees in the starter. . . I also put a wet sponge in the bottom of the nuc box they need moisture to make RJ. Also two days prior to shaking the bees I feed Honey-B-Healthy with 1:1 sugar water
when there is no flow going on I feed 1;1 sw with HBH AND POLLEN sub about four days befor I put together my starter
I have been putting as many nurse bees in the starter as could fit. I don't know if I would say it was FOUR POUNDS worth (as I was going with Dr. Connor's estimate of one pound of nurse bees for every 10 grafts, so if I was doing about 20 grafts I would put in about 2.5 lbs of bees, to be on the safe side). I guess I could always ramp that up a little more.

I havn't been putting a wet sponge in the bottom of the nuc box . . . and I don't know why I hadn't. I'll have to start doing that.

I'm assuming that with shaking 4 lbs of bees in the swarm box you are taking from multiple colonies, correct? So when you start feeding with HBH two days prior to the shake, do you feed all your colonies? Or just the ones you know you will shake from? Obviously, same issue goes when there is no flow on, do you feed all your colonies pollen substitute and HBH, or just ones that you suspect you will shake from? Even with no flow on, do they still take the pollen substitute? Try as I might, they just won't touch the stuff if they can get ANY pollen from the outside.

So when there is no flow the finisher should be drip fed constantly, without a break.
I have noticed queen rearing in the spring (with the really only flow we have - tulip poplar) is much easier than the rest of the season. The challenge for me is since after May, we don't really have any flow. That's a long time to try to simulate a flow.

It sounds like several of you feed for multiple days BEFORE you graft. I hadn't heard of that before, and that may make the world of a difference.

In the starter, it's best to use combs of freshly gathered, unsealed honey, as this has a higher moisture level than capped honey
I don't know why, but for some reason I thought capped honey was better. Kinda like the difference between a cake and cake batter, lol. Very good to know from now on though, and when I can use uncapped honey, I will. Do you know of any suggestions to help the bees break down the capped honey though? For times when you don't have any uncapped available? Or would a wet sponge in the nuc box be sufficient?

But they will not become monsters in a 2 frame nuc.
My desire is not only to get large queens, but large cells as well. My cells thus far have been small to average. My swarm cells are larger, which does tell me I'm not doing something right. But I'm aware that the queen in a 2 frame box will not be as fully developed as a queen in a full colony. However, for evaluation purposes I'm not able to put EVERY queen that I raise into a full colony before I cull the small and undesirable ones.

Consider setting up your drone hives 2 miles from your queen breeder hives
I wish I could JRB, lol. I don't really have access to that kind of land though. I'm working on keeping hives at surrounding farmer's lands, as a type of mutually beneficial agreement. But that takes time, and I don't know I'll be able to do it two miles in EVERY direction. It would be nice though.

just because a queen is big and fat doesn't make her a great queen.
I'm not in disagreement that there are a number of outliners, in both directions, but studies particularly done by Dr. Tarpy at NC State University have shown that larger queens on average have more ovarioles, can produce more eggs per day, and can produce more pheromones. Again, while this isn't always true, the trend appears to be that the larger, the more potential.

I noticed that you said you don't prime your cells. Consider trying it for a few batches.
I have considered it, but again the jury is out. I don't have an inexpensive and reliable source of RJ to prime with. I will start collecting it from my own swarm cells and culled grafts next season, but that still puts me one session behind, if you know what I mean. So, for the time being, since I don't have RJ available, I can't really prime with it. I've also heard of using a yogurt mixture, but I've heard just as many bad things about it's use as good things.

I've also heard that RJ doesn't keep it's nutritional content for very long, so once you capture it and freeze it or refrigerate it, it isn't as good any more. Probably better than nothing, but half nutritional content RJ isn't as good as full nutritional content RJ (which the nurse bees hopefully should be able to develop themselves).

I think if I knew of a not so expensive and reliable source of RJ, I would try it next season. Good thing I have all winter to find it, lol.

How many queens do you want to raise?
Right now I'm interested in learning. I want to make enough queens to supply my growth and get the foundation laid for making good queens. Once I can make great queens and I'm satisfied with the output, I intend to sell them. Eventually I would like to make about 10 queens every two weeks. Once demand catches up with supply, I'll probably double that, and see where it goes from there.

Not a simple answer, I know, and I'm sorry. But if I were to break it down, I think about 20 queens a season for this year, 20-30 queens for next season, and 10 a week for the following season. Do you think that is a good, yet slow and reasonable progression?
 
#6 ·
specialkayme ; I think more bees in the starter. Here is how I do it. First i shake about four pounds of bees into a net box then I pour all the bees into a three frame deep nuc box. I like to use medium frames for this as it creates a cluster area for the bees in the bottom of the box. When all the bees are in the box it looks like the cell bar frame won't fit but it does. the two frames in the nuc are honey and pollen and I also put a wet sponge in the bottom of the nuc box they need moisture to make RJ. Also two days prior to shaking the bees I feed Honey-B-Healthy with 1:1 sugar water
when there is no flow going on I feed 1;1 sw with HBH AND POLLEN sub about four days befor I put together my starter
 
#7 ·
That's a good calendar, I'll be recommending it to people that ask me about how to time queen raising, thanks for sharing.

As to the rest of your post, sounds like you are pretty much doing most things right. One thing that makes a difference, if the cell finisher is on a flow, and has been for a while, and has that really "pumping" kind of activity and morale level when you open it, they will raise bigger cells and queens than the exact same hive if it is not on a flow. So when there is no flow the finisher should be drip fed constantly, without a break. Some kind of feeder can be used that only let's them take the syrup slowly, so it will last for a while.

In the starter, it's best to use combs of freshly gathered, unsealed honey, as this has a higher moisture level than capped honey, capped honey is too concentrated if they do not have access to water. Some pollen is important also.

Another thing, you might think your queens are not monsters. But they will not become monsters in a 2 frame nuc. Run them in a good healthy full sized hive during the spring build up, and then have a look at them, you might be surprised how much bigger they are than when you introduced them.
 
#9 ·
Consider setting up your drone hives 2 miles from your queen breeder hives at the 4 compass points from your breeders. There are some studies that indicate that qrones only stay near their own hive. But Queens fly beyond their owns hives area so that that they don't in-breed.
 
#10 ·
Call, me a dissenter, but just because a queen is big and fat doesn't make her a great queen. I have had queens that were absolute monsters, with shotty brood patterns, bad tenperment, and wouldn't produce surplus. I have had small queens head hives for multiple seasons and produce good brood patterns, docile bees, and honey at the end of the season. Not saying that's the norm, but it does happen. I really don't look for great size in my grafting mothers, but it doesn't hurt. A bigger cell that is better fed produces bigger queens,so I like to throw feeders on my starter and finisher hives, regardless of flow, and put in hbh to help them along.
 
#14 ·
The nice thing about the wide base cell cups is that you can see how much food.is available for the developing queens. You know the queens are.well fed if there is jelly left in the cells after emergence.
Deknow
 
#16 · (Edited)
I don't really have a firm recipe for pollen substitute, cause I make them a little different each time. Basically I make very small batches and start by adding about two-three pounds of dry sugar to a mixing bowl, then I stir in enough canola oil to wet the sugar (so to speak), next I mix in one pound of dry Bee Pro and one pound of dry brewers yeast, I sometimes also mix in a 1000mg crushed vitamin C tablet and about 1/4 lb of hemp protein powder. After all the dry ingredients are thoroughly blended, I then moisten the entire mass by pouring in a little 1:1 sugar syrup and mixing until the batch is like a thick cookie dough. I spoon it onto one end of a strip of waxed paper as I use it, then I fold the waxed paper over onto the lump of pollen substitute, push it into a flattened patty, between layers of waxed paper, then I cut several slits in the top of the formed patty and place the slit side down as I give it to the receiving colonies.

For patties I feed to my queen cell builder/finisher I substitute a pound of trehalose sugar for one of the three pounds used in the first stage, the mix with canola oil. I also make sure to use 1/2" mesh hardware cloth racks to place the patties on in the cell builder/finishers, the bees completely cover the patties on all sides, and they are usually consumed in a few days.

About every other batch of cells (I usually graft about fifteen cells per batch - one cell bar), I add another frame of nurse bees. If the cell builder looks too over-stuffed I sometimes remove a frame or two of bees and replace them with more fresh nurse bees from donor colonies, this is on top of the practice of keeping two frames of capped/emerging brood in the cell builder until about 2/3 of them have emerged, then replacing them with fresh frames of capped/emerging brood, but shaking the bees off (leaving them in the cell builder). I sometimes relocate cell builders, placing a weaker nuc in its place, in order to reduce the amount of older, field bees in the hive (to get a better idea how many nurse/house bees are actually there). If the population is greatly reduced by this, I simply shake in more nurse bees, again.
 
#17 ·
I've never heard of anyone using trehalose sugar before. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know it existed, lol. A quick google search brought me up to date on it. Do you mind expanding a little on why you use it?

I've also had better success with Mega-bee than I have with Bee-Pro, but that's just personally. Then again, I havn't found an overall formula that works 100% of the time.

How do you guys deal with feeding pollen substitute during the summer and spring months, when they are already foraging, especially when you are just adding SHB lures. Do you just provide a little bit, at all times that you raise queens? Or only for a few days beforehand?
 
#21 ·
But occasionally, from time to time, a few of your grafted cells are as large and robust as swarm cells, correct?
That was our aim, and was achieved quite often, but sometimes it's just not going to happen, but you'll still get a good queen. But cells that aren't up to a certain standard, and that is a matter of judgement, they should be culled.

With all the feeding you did, was robbing ever a problem?
No because they are strong hives. However we didn't take stupid risks that might cause robbing like leaving anything sweet in the open, or whatever.
 
#20 ·
The most important thing for getting great queens is that they are fed well. Raising queens where there is abundant food and in a hive with a high density of bees is the best way to insure this.

The second is that they are mated well. Again raising bees when there is abundant food usually insures there are abundant drones.

Next is letting them lay for three weeks before you cage or bank them. Preferable DON'T cage or bank them, introduce them as cells to the hive they will live in or combine your mating nuc with the hive they will live in.

Last is genetics. Breed from your best stock. Don't over complicate it. You know the bees you like. The ones that are thriving and making honey. Breed from those.
 
#22 ·
The most important thing for getting great queens is that they are fed well. Raising queens where there is abundant food and in a hive with a high density of bees is the best way to insure this.
I'd have to say that this is the largest challenge for me. I don't have much of a problem raising queens when pollen and nectar are coming in. Where it becomes difficult is when there isn't an abundant amount of food.

I guess the easiest way to get around this is to ALWAYS have a sugar water feeder going, as well as some type of pollen substitute. Not only while the cells are being drawn out, but a few days or even a week before hand, to ensure really healthy nurse bees.

Next is letting them lay for three weeks before you cage or bank them.
So letting them lay within the mating nuc for three weeks AFTER they have mated, correct?

No because they are strong hives.
My question was centered more around the mating nucs than the starter/finishers. Did you have any robbing issues with smaller, mating nuc hives?
 
#23 ·
I've had almost the exact same experience this year. I've mostly been using a queenless nuc starter/finisher like Joseph does. Although I haven't "I also shake in a few extra pounds of nurse bees I've harvested from several large colonies." didn't know about that step until now.

I've also tried using a queenright finisher a couple of times, double grafted, primed with royal jelly that I harvested from 3 day old grafts (very high acceptance), primed with yogurt (rather poor acceptance), primed with 2-1 sugar syrup (works pretty good - probably the best return for the effort) but alas, no monster cells. Some nice queens though, even a few really big ones - once they've been laying a while.

So far I favor the queenless nuc starter/finisher - results for me have been at least as good as anything else, and it is so much easier that I graft more often.

I'm thinking a good accessory might be another queenless nuc just like it, but instead of using it to start cells, just swap out the brood frames every week, keep it over fed, and shake bees out of it into the actual starter finisher when it's time to graft.
 
#25 ·
>So letting them lay within the mating nuc for three weeks AFTER they have mated, correct?

Let them lay uninterrupted. It doesn't matter if it's the nuc or the hive they will end up in, but they are best if they aren't caged or banked before at least three weeks of laying. They are better at 2 than at 1. A typical commercial queen gets caged as soon as they see eggs. A few places go longer, like Russel.
 
#26 ·
Nutrition is the key... Spring is a completely different world than Summer is... Keep in mind that the northern flows and southern flows are completely different as well, so while we get our flows much earlier and they drag on until mid-late summer, the north has their flows all sort of kick in at once... Most breeders raise queens during the strong flows, then stop... so there is not a lot of teaching about how the different climates and seasons change the way you produce queens... You may have seen where I have advised people to "Keep yourself and your operation flexible" this simply means that what works for one place and time, may (will) not work the same for another... So we adapt to fit the situation... Mike was exactly right about giving them plenty of time to lay, not just let them start, then cage them... but one thing that he said that may have slipped past most and is truly important is the Undisturbed part... one of our greatest struggles while dealing with so many public sells this season was that we could not do the "predictive caging" that the common commercial breeders do because we never open the nucs until they are supposed to be ready... a queen can shut down from being disturbed, causing them to stop laying for a period and the first period of time is the most important in her development... So when a breeder "peaks" in the nucs to see how they are doing, they are risking the queens most important development period... True enough, any nucs that do not get their queen back after a mating flight will be hurting by the time you come through to cage the others, and that can cause a lot of heart ache for a commercial operation... but "peaking" is just another word for "pushing" in the sense that the breeder wouldnt need to "peak" if they were not being "pushed" by the demand... this is where the thin line between quality queens and quality service is drawn, so keep in mind that "peaking" can leave you with an unhappy ending...

The following is a few cuts from the Summer Queen Rearing thread on my website, some of you may have seen it already, but I will post them here for those that have not... The intention of this thread was to show the change in the methods of queen rearing as the season changes... In the spring, you have a nice flow, so you have lots of open honey, and fresh pollen, moisture, and most importantly.. instinct... in those conditions you can raise cell easily, and I prefer the swarm box method with a strong finisher for that time... however, summer brings high heat, dryer honey, less incoming pollen, and the bees are much more spaced out throughout the hive... So I prefer the following method to address those changes and continue to produce awesome cells and queens straight through the summer months as well...

"""""""""""""Ok lets start discussing the pains of summer queen rearing... First hurdle to leap is the heat... The heat can effect your grafts by drying them out, your mating nucs by causing the bees to quickly abscond as well as causing them to become beetle food...



So first lets address the grafting issue... Most use a warm damp cloth or paper towel over the cell bars as they graft to keep the larvae moist enough to prevent them from drying out... The time of day that you graft will have a lot a effect as well... In the 100+ degree days and 85+ degree nights of MS summers, I prefer to graft in the twilight hour so that the sun is not beating down on my grafts or my starters when I place them in... this also gives the bees enough daylight to accept the graft before dark and the starters (open flying for summer) are packed extra full at this time of day because the foragers have been returning home... So there is fresh pollen and nectar in many bellys in the starter... To graft, I prefer using one of our grafting trailers or the small shops that we have at some locations... and I prefer to prime my cells with pure royal jelly, fresh from the syringe right before I start to transfer... when transfering is complete, the grafts go straight into the starters...

Cell bars primed with royal jelly...


Summer Cell Starters... usually 8 frame or 10 frame hives that are split down from double deeps to create singles that are overly packed with bees, but no queen... Simply take a double deep hive (doesnt have to be deeps, any brood configuration will work, just adjust the number of mediums to equal the same space as the deeps) that has one or two drawn and filled supers on it... set the supers aside and go through the deeps to locate the queen... place as much of the capped brood as you can into the bottom deep leaving one honey/pollen frame on the outer edges and one blank space in the center of that chamber... the queen and all other frames go into the top deep and that deep is set on a new stand facing the opposite direction... a full honey super is placed back on top of the original deep (which we will call the "starter" from now on) and another super will be set on the new hive that was started by the top deep (if you dont have a full super, you can feed to help them handle the large amounts of open brood)... You can not let the starter sit overnight without getting a graft into it... they will make e-cells if you do, and chances are, they will make e-cells no matter what... so be sure to thoroghly inspect for them on the 4th day and completely destroy each one that you find (if your take looks terrible, e-cells are the number one reason, so dig through and clear out the competition)... Now your starter will catch all of the foragers, and has tons of new bees constantly emerging, plenty of honey to feed the queen cells only, since you have removed the majority of open brood, and they will be a bit angry while they pile up everywhere and festoon everywhere... There is no need to reduce the entrance of a summer starter... that would just be cruel.. lol. Set this up in mid day, then graft and place your graft in the blank space that you made in the center sometime close to dark... I call it the twilight hour, the time period when the sun is not actually shining on you, but there is still plenty of light. Here is a few pics of Summer Cell Starters...


Here is an 8 frame that was just set up the way I described above, only there are no supers in this configuration and the "split" side of the hive is facing the same direction as the original... the left side is the original, the right side is where the queen, open brood, and a feeder are... in the left there is one blank space in the center, two frames of honey and pollen on the edges, and five frames of capped brood... and of course a TON of bees...


Continued in the next post...
 
#162 ·
Mike was exactly right about giving them plenty of time to lay, not just let them start, then cage them... but one thing that he said that may have slipped past most and is truly important is the Undisturbed part...
I am understanding the important role that the first three weeks of undisturbed laying has on the queen development, but I am curious if the rate of laying in those three weeks has any lasting effect also, because often times as with two frame mating nucs there is very limited room for the queen to work in?
thanks
Serge
 
#27 ·
Next are Cell Finishers... These are the same in spring and summer... They are simply very strong hives (if you have to, gather frames of capped brood from a few other hives to make the cell finishers as strong as you can... we use Sunkist for this, so they have plenty ;))... The best configuration for this is a double deep with a super of honey on top (or the equivalent in mediums)... You will need to locate the queen and once again move the capped brood to the bottom deep, However, this time you will want the queen to go down there as well... Put an excluder on top of that deep, and all of the open brood and honey should be in the top deep... pull two of the honey frames out and create two blank spaces in the center separated by one open brood frame... these two holes will allow you to finish your first grafts and your second graft... that is important... you always make your grafts at least two days in a row...
Here are two cell finishers...


Now lets go over just how many cells can be started at once with this method... I would say that you can start anywhere from 1-88 cells in this starter... but since this is such an easy setup and you are going to be getting a few more colonies out of it anyway... I would recommend that you set up 2 starters and one finisher (unless you need a TON of queens)... let me break down a simple schedule that will allow you to produce extremely high quality queens in a very timely manner... You will need 4, 3 bar deep frames (mediums will be a bit different due to the frames only holding two bars at once)... graft 2 bars on the first day and place one on the top run of each of the two frames that you will place into your starters... the next day, ease those frames out and carefully transfer those to frames over to your finisher (one frame in each hole)... make the second graft that same day one two more bars and place those two bars in the other two frames that you have and slide them into your starters... the next day, ease those frames out of your starters and carefully pull the bars out and place them into the second grooves on the graft frames that were in the finisher... repeat this process one more day and place the last bars on the third groove of the graft frames in the finisher... this will have given you up to 126 excellent cells in 3 days... then you can take entire bars off when its time to plant the cells or hatch the virgins into California mini cages if you would like to visually inspect them before you plant them...

To better describe the frames and the term "cell bars", here is a picture of two deep cell bar frames... each has three cell bars on it... I strongly recommend color coordinating your grafts, so in the case that this picture shows, the first graft would be in amber (yellow) cups, second day would be Red cups, and third day would be smoke cups... again, this method would be using two bars each day and the two bars would be started in different starter, and then finished on different frames in the finisher...


I do not recommend returning the starters to a queen-right condition until after you are certain that you have all of the queens that you want... remember that there are many variables that will come into play here... you may get a perfect take on your graft and every cell may hatch perfectly, but then the queens get eaten by birds while trying to mate... This is the chaos factor of queen rearing... if it can go wrong, it will... So tomorrow's posts will be geared more towards being prepared for the unforeseen, as well as setting up mating nucs in a way that keeps you from having to get new equipment and keeps you from having to use up your bee resources...""""""""""""

Returning to your original question, did you move the open brood up and the capped brood down in your finisher?

Hope this helps!
 
#29 ·
Returning to your original question, did you move the open brood up and the capped brood down in your finisher?
Yes I did. And I even used the sunkist hive as the finisher, lol.

On a side note, what's the last date that you would recommend someone in central NC graft? I was thinking about doing one last batch (I ordered some Royal Jelly off your site today, as well as some pollen substitute from Brushy Mountain) but I'm afraid I wouldn't have enough time to provide proper nutrition, graft, start, finish, and mate all the queens as well as giving them enough time to get a few cycles of brood out in order to overwinter. I wouldn't be concerned about starting now if I was going to re-queen with them, but i was hoping to let them start their own 5 frame nuc.

I'm going to spend the rest of the day sitting down and thoroughly reading this thread again, and then hopefully I'll compile a day-by-day analysis of what I should be doing.
 
#30 · (Edited)
So I made a "Calendar" so to speak. It's basically a rip off the website one, only I added a little bit of information that I gathered from this thread (and Russell's, on his site). Tell me what you guys think:


Day 0 - Start feeding hives that the nurse bees for the starter come from with 1:1 sugar water with HBH and Pollen Substitute
Day 1 – The egg is laid by the queen mother
Day 2 –
Day 3 –
Day 4 – Graft 12-24 hour-old larvae into cell cups (primed with a drop of royal jelly). Spring: make up a five frame queen-less nuc, with two frames of un-capped honey and two frames of pollen. Add pollen substitute (if needed) and a wet sponge. Pack in four pounds of nurse bees. Add grafts and let sit overnight. Summer: Add grafts to a queen-less full hive, which contains no open brood. Add a feeder and pollen substitute if needed.
Day 5 – Check your grafts: the bees should have started to draw out the cells and feed the larvae with royal jelly. If not, re-graft. Move grafts into a cell finisher (full hive with capped brood and queen on bottom under a queen excluder). Add 1:1 sw and ps if needed.
Day 6 –
Day 7
Day 8 – Cull all cells that are capped (too early), those that are not 100% filled with RJ, or are mis-shapen or small.
Day 9 – Queen cells are capped
Day 10 – Sensitive developmental phase – do not move cells and be very gentle when opening the hive
Day 11 – Sensitive developmental phase – do not move cells and be very gentle when opening the hive
Day 12 – Sensitive developmental phase – do not move cells and be very gentle when opening the hive
Day 13 – Move the capped queen cells into mating nucs
Day 14
Day 15
Day 16 – Queens hatch
Day 17
Day 18 – Discard any un-hatched cells
Day 19
Day 20
Day 21 – Potential Mating Flights
Day 22 – Potential Mating Flights
Day 23 – Potential Mating Flights
Day 24 – Potential Mating Flights
Day 25 – Potential Mating Flights
Day 26 – Potential Mating Flights
Day 27
Day 28
Day 29
Day 30
Day 31
Day 32
Day 33
Day 34
Day 35
Day 36
Day 37 – Check Nuc for eggs/larvae
 
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