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"No Treatment of Honey Bees Report" by StevenG

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#1 ·
Here it is. Between Barry's schedule and mine, it's taken a while. And do not ask me what I think of the word processing program that we have to use for this.

Here's the link: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

DO NOT post comments there. We'll discuss it here.

Now, as background, this report came about because folks wanted data - dates, activities, results. This is not a scientific study, it is simply a report that will, when concluded, track 6 years of all of my hives. Beginning 4 seasons ago, and concluding in Dec. 2011.

As indicated, it is a real pain getting the data in there and formatted, so please forgive any errors. I have all the summations in, and details on 3 on the 14 hives. I have the data for the other 11 hives in my word processing program in my computer, and will get it transferred as soon as possible. I hope you find this interesting and helpful. If not, just ignore it.

For all the other reports and data that has been generated as a result of our discussions a few weeks ago about "Treatment Free", I think its exciting!
Regards,
Steven
 
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#56 ·
Sorry for the delay in updating, but it has not been a pleasant season. When I began this project, I promised to be honest - the good, the bad, and the ugly. However, I did not anticipate proctologically ugly...:eek:

Last year, the honey on the hives July 4 was all the honey I got when I pulled and extracted around Labor Day. So the July 4th weekend I pulled and extracted, exactly 180 pounds from 11 hives, for a whopping 16 pound average! To add insult to injury, I've lost 6 hives, so I'm down from 32 to 26 colonies now. Started with 13 in March, so I guess that isn't too bad.

I hired a high school senior to help me move 11 hives to soybeans July 15, and promptly got heat exhaustion, violently physically ill, to go along with a multitude of stings. Won't bore you with the details, except I'm never doing that again. Will mount those hives permanently on a flat bed trailer, and simply trailer them next year.

Details are in the blog. I have great hopes for those 11 hives on soybeans to save my year. Who said beekeeping was easy? Never a dull moment. :lpf:
Regards,
Steven
 
#58 ·
Thanks jajtiii, appreciate that.
Apparently here they either don't spray, or spray before the bloom. Not sure. From what I understand, soybean location makes all the difference in the world whether one gets a honey crop or not.
May I make a suggestion? The person who offered to let you put your hives on soybeans, ask if and when they spray. You might be surprised...and it might be worth it to see if you can get a honey crop.
Good luck!
Steven
 
#59 ·
Greetings all!

The blog has been updated today. Here's the link for those interested: http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

Glad I listened to a friend, and moved bees to soybeans. They saved my year, such as it was. Got a total of 500.5 pounds from 13 colonies this year, most of it from soybeans. Unfortunately I checked with the farmer about the possibility of him spraying the beans, four days after he and his neighbors sprayed. Lost all my field bees. Flow came to a screeching halt. They recovered, but... well, we live and learn. Now getting the colonies ready for winter, and ordering materials from the bee supply shops for next spring.
Regards,
Steven
 
#60 ·
You might be interested in this article about a chap in Swindon, England breeding a varroa resistant/tolerant bee

click here

It doesnt tell all the story and in this months Bee Craft (October 2010) magazine is a full interview. Apparently what he has found out is that some bees actually attack mites and/or open up larvae and remove them from the cell to kill them, so what he has been doing is he examines the mites that fall under a microscope and which ever hives are best at killing varroa he then uses these colonies to breed from, thus breeding a bee that will attack/kill and remove varroa from the colony. He says you can tell a varroa killed be a bee in that it will have legs pulled off and other parts as varroa are very soft skinned. He says you can also tell the colonies that remove them from the cells too because he sees lots of immature white varroa mites on the drop boards.

Non of his colonies he says are free from varroa but they all have very low varroa populations and he has not treated for varroa since 2000 or 2001. Not bad going. He also states he breeds all his own queens and uses local stock that are accustomed to local climatic conditions. It is an interesting article to read

He says what he is doing any beekeeper could do and in fairness he is right. I think he says he uses a 40x magnification microscope to inspect the mites
 
#62 ·
I dont think the mite would be affected/become less virulent. when breeding the queens he keeps them and the drones secluded however that might be, so he can chose father as well as mother. but once workers start flying they will bring mites in from all over not just his apiary, and by all over I mean more than 3miles away.
 
#63 ·
That's one way to do it, I suppose, but I personally believe that breeding livestock for resistance to one pest out of many that attack it is not a wise strategy. You want livestock that can prevail against all of its current enemies. It may not be your best hive against the V Mites, but it holds its own when assailed against all known (and unknown) attackers.

If you assume that there are unknown attackers out there (i.e. you have not come to a definitive conclusion as to what is causing CCD), it is even more important to simply leave your hives alone and breed from those that continue to survive, year in and year out, without feed, sugar or chemicals (one could argue that you could still feed them and you would only be countering environmental factors, I suppose.)
 
#64 ·
If you assume that there are unknown attackers out there (i.e. you have not come to a definitive conclusion as to what is causing CCD), it is even more important to simply leave your hives alone and breed from those that continue to survive, year in and year out, without feed, sugar or chemicals (one could argue that you could still feed them and you would only be countering environmental factors, I suppose.)
To me that is the key, which is why I began this report - to show folks there are bees available to us that do not need treatments, chemicals, etc to survive the mites and shb etc. And yes, I do sugar feed, and this fall am applying Mega bee also.

Seems like more and more beeks are seeing the wisdom of a resistant bee, and non-treatment or not using chemicals. Personally I'd like to get back to the kind of beekeeping I did in the 1970's, only fed sugar occasionally as needed in times of dearth. But that isn't going to happen...seems like there are so many more chemicals in the environment the bees have to cope with.
Regards,
Steven
 
#65 ·
In July of 2005 I placed 12 colonies with sister queens (Buckfast from Fergusons Apiaries) in a "live or let die" yard. My purpose was to see how long they would live without varroa mite treatments. The colonies were over wintered from 2004. They had been treated for varroa in August 2004 and then requeened in July 2005.

They have received no management other than a check in spring and fall for disease and being queenright. Honey has not been removed but supers have been equalized among colonies in the fall. They are in standard 10 frame Langstroth equipment and are on Pierco plastic frames. They have received no treatments of any kind.

As of today there are 5 colonies still alive. The queens are all swarm or supersedure queens from the original 12. Drones for the queens to mate with were from russian, Weaver Buckfast, and Minnesota Hygenics and drones from the surviving Ferguson Buckfast. The seven dead colonies (2 each year in 07,08,09 and one this past March) all happened when they failed to overwinter and it appeared they had queen failures in late fall or winter.

April of next year I am taking any remaining colonies out of service and placing the queens in nucs. I am going to raise queens from these and remake 12 colonies using those queens. I will let them draw new comb and then check these for varroa resistance and honey production. I plan to manage these colonies with regular checks, I think had I been checking I would not have lost the 7 that I did. I would have seen the queen failing in time to replace her and save the colony.
 
#66 ·
AR,I have not used chems or any thing in my hives sence 1994, I do have a screen bb with an oil pan under it , it kills every thing that falls in it .yes it was nice keeping bees in the 60`s and 70`s , I hope more beeks will try to go treatment free. but most look for the easy or the less expensive way of beekeeping. and the queen lived longer and most of the time more productive.It looks like everthing is going to hell in a hand basket ,but we can try to save our bee as best we can. good luck rock.
 
#67 ·
Just like to chime in. Have had 2 hives of MN hygienic since 2006, have not treated them once and they are still doing great. I do have screened bottom boards, had a problem with deformed wing virus last year but the queen seemed to outbreed the mites. Also used the green drone frames in that hive to get the mite levels down.
 
#69 ·
Greetings all!

The blog has been updated. http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/ I finished up 2010.
For those who have not read from the beginning, I restarted in beekeeping April 8, 2006, with treatment free bees from B. Weaver. This April begins my 6th year, with absolutely no treatments for mites. You can read the details on the blog if you wish.

No postings have been made yet for 2011, because I haven't opened any hives yet. I've walked by them. I've listened to some, but don't plan to open for another week or two. At that point, I'll feed Mega Bee patties, and possibly 1:1 sugar syrup. Will report that here.

As most of us are, I am rather anxious to see how many of my colonies made it through the winter. I entered the winter with 26 lives colonies. I plan to expand up to 50 this year. I've already ordered 20 queens from B. Weaver, to pick up in April. So, until next time, may Winter be kind to you!
Regards,
Steven
 
#70 ·
2011 reporting begins!

The blog has been updated, inspections were made this past week for the first time this year. http://www.beesource.com/2010/no-treatment-of-honey-bees-report-3/

Summation - entered the winter with 26 hives, lost 4. 15%, which isn't too bad, more than I would have liked. 2 clusters were pinned in place by brood, and starved with plenty of honey in the colony. 1 colony had queen issues late in the fall apparently, and dwindled to death. Last colony seems to have absconded last fall, or had a queen issue. You can read the details on the blog. Two other colonies I'm concerned about. We'll see.

I inspected without gloves, except for the 5 hives in my back yard. Three of them were real, and I mean, REAL cranky. Other two were pussycats. But, I had already been stung 6 times in the other yard, and the first colony I opened let me know how upset they were, so I donned the gloves.

20 queens were ordered from B. Weaver late last year, for pickup in April. I'm proceeding with my planned splits, and putting 20 colonies on a trailer to move to soybeans after the clover is over. I hope to be at 50 colonies by fall, we'll see.

Hope you all have a great year this year!
 
#73 ·
bbm, I've been dividing in order to increase my colony numbers. I want to get up to 50 colonies before leveling off. In fact, you don't ever have to divide. You simply need to practice good swarm control measures. Of course you'll lose swarms, but that simply repopulates the feral populations, which is good for the environment.

My take is, if you manage for honey production, you'll have the populations that benefit the environment, namely a strong and healthy hive. A strong, healthy hive does great job pollinating, but also producing honey. And when you have your very own first honey on a hot buttered biscuit, you may not be so altruistic! :lpf: (just teasing! But there is nothing better than your own honey on a hot buttered biscuit)

If you decide you don't want a lot of extracted honey for your use and to sell or give away, keep only one or two colonies. Or produce comb honey, a bit of a tasty speciality.
Regards,
Steven
 
#74 ·
I applaud, believe it or not what you are trying to do. But after reading through the blog and seeing that you have fed Honey bee healthy, which is an IPM essential oil concoction, used to help bees overcome all kind of problems. Thus you are not 100% treatment free. So with that in mind I would suggest setting up an IPM apiary, rotating soft chems like Thymol, hops guard, Formic and good old fashion apistan, which is a soft pyritherin over a period of two to four years. Used in conjuction with VHS/SMR commercial stock ,which can be aquired from several commercial breeders who post on this forum..... IPM will require you to do mite counts and physical methods like screened bottoms or partially screened pallets. Then you can compare the two methods-treatment free/semi treatment free or IPM on their results for hive survivability, honey production and cost of keeping those colonies alive. Thus the comparative results can thus be posted. TED
 
#75 ·
Thanks for the input Ted. You're still going to owe me a steak dinner in 10 years! :D

I started the blog as the result of some very heated discussion back then on this forum about the success of treatment free beekeeping - esp. as it relates to mites. In fact, back then, Treatment Free basically referred to chemical treatments of mites. The concept has expanded considerably since then. My original intent was not to do a comparative study, because there were those much smarter than I who were telling me what I would need to do in order to have a bonafide study.

Before reentering beekeeping, I subscribed to both magazines, and studied the new problems. I decided early on to get bees that would not require a lot of treatments. So, I decided to do a report. Working full time, caring for a 92-year-old mother-in-law who lives with us, and a wife with Parkinson's, I don't have the time I'd like to devote to the bees. I had then, and still have, no desire to do a scientific study. I simply want to report my experiences so those beekeepers who want to keep a few hives can see what options might be available to them.

By the same token, I hope that some commercial beeks might glean a nugget or two from my efforts. Especially if I'm able to get my honey production up where it was in the 1970's-'80's, namely 100 pounds per colony here in Missouri. I know there are parts of the country where that is low, but it is still nearly double the Missouri average.

What I have learned so far: the MnHyg (Minnesota Hygenic) strain doesn't work so well for me. The second and third generation Purvis doesn't hold up (and Purvis is no longer in the queen business, so that's a moot point). The jury is still out on my Russians. The B. Weavers do the best overall, hands down. But sometimes the second or third generation gets a little warm :)lpf: a couple are downright hot! and got requeened a couple weeks ago). I'm going to try some of Russell's bees this year and next.

Regarding "treatment free", by the current definitions, regarding mites I'm treatment free. In other areas? Not so much. But that's ok. I think WLC made an interesting observation in a recent post that perhaps we can never really get off the treadmill. I'd modify his comment to say We're all on a treadmill, we just choose how elaborate that treadmill is. I'm going to try to keep mine as simple as possible.

So, while I think your observation is on target, and such a study might be beneficial, I have no interest in doing such a study. I'm simply reporting on what's happening as I am mite treatment free, and minimal treatments of other kinds.

(I still think even commercials will be mite treatment free in 15 years [you said 10 so you'd have a better chance at getting that steak from me!]. And Stonefly told me to insist you have salad along with your steak. :D 10 or 15, get ready to pay up! I'm not going to forget! :banana:)
Warmest regards,
Steven
 
#76 ·
Did stonefly also tell you I prefer baked beans with the steak?? At least that was his observation while down here helping me--that I ate too many baked beans. But back on topic. Somebody needs to do a comparative study with real data generated. I am also a pre 1984 beekeeper and remember higher honey yields. Bees do not build up a strong due to mite predation, thus the lower yields in honey production. TK
 
#77 ·
Dadants have a film titled Organic Beekeeping 101, we have a local beekeeping group that meets monthly, does this film answer questions or just tell us what the problems are?
How long does it take to see the film?
Does it promote treatment free beekeeping?
Do you know of a better treatment free film for a group to see?
I sent this info to Dadants and so far they have not answered.
Myron Denny
 
#79 ·
nice report and very good to know some one in my area has broke the ground ahead of me ....now I have a much better idea of what kind of queens would be good here and lol I may even have a swarm that escaped from yours in the past .....collected it by the industrial park on fair street last spring
 
#80 · (Edited)
StevenG wrote in his blog: "...2. “No Treatment” means I shall not put any medications in my hives. Nothing for mites, nothing for Nosema. No essential oils, no powdered sugar dustings, no treatments of any kind...."

Ted Kretschmann wrote in post #74: "...seeing that you have fed Honey bee healthy, which is an IPM essential oil concoction..."

I looked at Steven's blog and could not find any mention of the use of HBH. Admittedly I only used a fine toothed comb, and not a laser. Could someone enlighten me on this point? Thanks in advance!
 
#81 ·
DeeAnna, what on earth are you going to do with the answer to this question? If he did use HBH, does that mean to you that treatment free doesn't work? What about his hives? Were they made in some natural manner with absolutely no trace of 'unnatural' method (I assure you that they were not, unless a tree grew them)? What about the hive stand? If they are cement blocks, does that detract from the 'I do not treat for mites' methodology in you mind?

Heh. What about your grass? Do you cut it with a mower? That's certainly not 'free of treatment'. Did you have someone transport your hive/package/nuc with a horse? I hope it wasn't fed with bailed hay (at least not bailed by something running on fossil fuels.)

Understand the point. Otherwise you spend you life missing the forest for the trees.
 
#82 ·
Ted referred to the use of HBH in Steven's report. I couldn't find any reference to HBH in said report. So either I missed Steven's comments about HBH, or Ted is mistaken about said use of HBH in Steven's hives.

I'd like to know which it is. Just that and only that. I am a newbie to beekeeping, and I want to learn. I can't do that unless I ask questions about things that are not clear to me.

I do NOT have some agenda about "treatment free" or otherwise, and anyone who assumes that I do is completely incorrect. I am just politely asking a simple question that deserves a courteous, factual answer.

What am I going to do with the answer to my question? It will help me to better understand the methodology he is following with his beekeeping.
 
#83 · (Edited)
Hi DeeAnna, and welcome!

Ted was right. A couple years ago perhaps, I gave one feeding of HBH in sugar syrup. The only feeding of HBH until last week.

When I started, my intent was not to get on the chemical treadmill treating for mites and other pests. I bought bees that are supposed to be treatment free, and that's the course I've taken. Some beeks use acids, essential oils, powdered sugar, and who knows what else to treat for mites. I don't.

Since last year, there has been a new thread on the forum on treatment free beekeeping. I used to read and post there, but gave it up as they were too busy arguing about what a treatment was and wasn't, and I just don't have time for that. I also have not updated the blog, and at this point don't plan to. The link to it no longer exists here, and I find updating the blog to be extremely cumbersome. I had surgery on my right shoulder 2 weeks ago, which has slowed me down. All is well though. I'm just an old fart (turned 63 this past Tuesday) and I decided some things I just don't have to do or put up with any more.

Now, having said that, I do plan to post regular summary updates here, for those who care to follow. To me, feeding HBH in sugar syrup as a stimulative for hive health and brood rearing is not a mite treatment. But I probably ought to say I'm semi-treatment free, for the purists.

For an update: I made splits, ordered 20 B. Weaver queens, and 2 Russians. Several of my donor hives had issues, some of the splits had issues. I went foundationless a couple years ago, and for me that was a really big mistake. Been tryijng to clean that up, which probably caused issues with a couple of hives that absconded and/or died out. Had to order 3 more Weaver queens and 2 Russians 2 weeks ago. They're here, and installed. I ended last fall with 27 hives, began this season with 23 hives. I've made 21 splits this year, and should be at 44 hives, but now I'm at 38 colonies. Should be at 50, just didn't make it.

Last year I fed 1800 pounds of granulated sugar to 14 colonies in the spring and 27 colonies in the fall. So I stocked in the sugar which I got wholesale, had 2500 pounds of it first of April. Have only fed 200 pounds, splitting my colonies from 23 (had deadouts) up to 44, but lost several for various reasons. Now have 38colonies.

For me, personally, the issue is: What do I put in my hives? We beeks have put so many different things into them, without understanding the long term ramifications. So I tend to err on the side of caution, and want to minimize what I put in my hives. Ergo the bare minimum - and other than an occasional stimultative feeding of granulated cane sugar syrup with HBH, some MegaBee patties, and a rare Nosema treatment, that's all they get.

Hope this helps, and feel free to ask any questions any time. I'll do my best to answer.
Regards,
Steven
 
#88 ·
I went foundationless a couple years ago, and for me that was a really big mistake. Been tryijng to clean that up, which probably caused issues with a couple of hives that absconded and/or died out.
Steven
Hi Steven I am interested in your negetive experinces going foundationless? I was seriously concidering this. been reading up some. Please tell me your experinces on why going foundationless was a mistake for you?
 
#84 ·
Hi, Steven -- Thank you for your answer to my question. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I thought it was likely that I'd missed the info in your blog/report, but I couldn't figure that out for sure, so the feedback is a great help.

"...A couple years ago perhaps, I gave one feeding of HBH in sugar syrup. The only feeding of HBH until last week...."

My goodness, you got a lot of mileage out of that one feeding of HBH! :)

Like you, I have also been reading the treatment-free forum. I usually glean a few nuggets of good information from most threads, but the frequent digressions and heated side-debates often make it tough going. Not a good situation for a newbie, but that's the way life (and BeeSource) usually goes.

Your ongoing report has been extremely helpful. It has been great to be able to clearly follow what you are doing with your hives and learn what is working for you and what isn't. I look forward to following this thread about your beekeeping. Thank you for being willing to share this information on BeeSource.

Regards, DeeAnna
 
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