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81K views 304 replies 46 participants last post by  Duncan Thacker 
#1 ·
With and all the positive feedback on its use and so many commercial beekeepers using OA in a dribble and others using it in a vaporized, why are YOU not using it?

It's pennies per treatment whether used in a dribble or vaporized (outside the initial cost of the vaporizer). Well below the costs of other treatments.

Again, unless you've remarkable bees that resist both the varroa mite itself and all viruses the mites bring into the hive OR have decided to go the treatment free route,
why are you not using it?
 
#3 ·
Dominic, what's even stranger is that the CHC sent the ABF the required materials for OA registration in the U.S. . But, the ABF never followed through. So, Canada did try to help U.S. beekeepers to use OA for treatments.

"The Canadian Honey Council has provided the American Beekeeping Federation their registration data packet to expedite the registration of OA in the USA. As a result, the recommended concentration of the OA solution that will appear on the US label will most likely be identical to the Canadian label. "

(Aliano, 2009)
 
#56 ·
The failure to follow through wasn't the fault of the ABF- it's the EPA dragging their feet.

I asked the ABF about this a few months ago, and received this reply:

"Some years ago right after Canada approved oxalic for general use, the ABF bought the documents including all the tests and trials they had used and made our own application to the EPA. It was not accepted partly because they would not accept Canadian tests, and partly because the ABF did not plan on selling the pre-dosed product. Normally, a registrant would apply for approval of a proprietary product that would be sold in a form and a dose as registered and labeled. Eventually, the ABF turned all the materials over to Cook and Beals as they had an interest in developing a dosed package. Last time I checked, EPA had not responded. Interestingly enough, during the negotiations to register APIVAR, EPA offered to register oxalic if we would drop our AMITRAZ request. But nothing came of that since the registrant ARYSTA wanted to sell their patented product, and had no ownership of oxalic. The bee industry said to go ahead and register oxalic please because it is an effective tool, but commercial beekeepers could not be dependent on it alone. Anyway, the application is in place, and EPA will respond in their own time."
 
#9 ·
Vaporising is better for the bees, but the dribble method is a whole lot easier for the beekeeper especially if there are a lot of hives involved.

When OA is vaporised into a hive it forms a vapour which distributes through the hive and condenses on everything, bees included. So everything has this fine acidic coating that kills mites, there is nowhere for them to hide, unless they are inside a brood cell. A vapour treatment done right will typically kill mites at a similar level to what Apistan would have to non resistant mites, for around 7 days. After that the kill rate rapidly drops off.

A dribble is different. OA is mixed with water, and only works if there is also sugar in the mix. It is squirted over the combs and gets spread around and also kills mites, however a lot more OA has to be put into a hive than if a vapour was used. Because the mix contains sugar, it is inevitable the bees will store some of it, and consume some of it. This can result in stomach problems for the bees, and if in food fed to brood, can kill larvae soon as they hatch from the egg, hence a winter OA dribble is known to have possible repercussions on spring brood nest development.

The reason a dribble rather than vapour is favoured by most commercial beekeepers, is the simplicity. A large batch can be mixed and a guy simply walks around with any kind of device that can squirt a measured amount of liquid each hive is treated in seconds, where a vapour treatment can be minutes per hive.
 
#15 ·
Something here smells like a sales pitch. Anyone else getting the same whiff of acid burning I do? OMG.......... my lungs.... I can't breath.

Might be a great product that helps kill mites like a sledge hammer but until OA is legal and registered in the US I think anyone who values their personal or business assets is a blame fool to sell anything that promotes or facilitates its use. When a jury is asked to rule in your favor when some nut forgets to put his respirator on when using your machine I sure hope you have a great defense they will believe. $$$ bye bye birdie. You are selling them for the express purpose of acidifying mites aren't you?
Can you show one case where someone was harmed vaporizing OA?
 
#10 ·
So, if using the dribble method (OA + water/sugar syrup) may result in bees ingesting OA with somewhat detrimental effects on their digestion, then what would happen if I use OA vaporization in a hive where I have already placed sugar bricks - or for that matter if the bees have open honey cells that they are in the rpocess of consuming.

Should I take the bricks out beforehand - I can picture the ding-dong food-riot that would cause - but if I could get them out, how would I avoid any OAV-derived crystals from landing on any open honey in the cells? This is still puzzling me.

And as a side query on the OAV topic, does anyone know the gram to volume (in teaspoons or ml) conversion rate for OA? I see the dosing rate quoted in grams, but that's not a convenient range for me to use.

Enj.
 
#11 ·
Pretty certain it would condense onto the sugar bricks & get consumed, yes. Me, I'd temporarily remove them.

Bear in mind, this will happen to any hive with unsealed honey. As an example I once thought it would be a good idea to vaporise some new swarms before they had sealed brood so all the mites would be exposed to it. Sounded like a good idea and it did in fact kill pretty much all the mites. BUT, what also happened was that being new swarms, they were building new comb and filling them with nectar, the whole hive was filled with nectar. The OA went onto it, and for weeks all I could find in those hives was newly laid eggs, soon as they hatched they died. It was literally weeks before the OA concentration in the feed was low enough that they could actually raise some live brood from those eggs, it was a great lesson.

I do OA vaporising it is a wonderful tool, and cheap. But having learned the hard way I'm now very aware of the other factors in the hive before I'll do it.
 
#19 ·
....residue in the hive from doing OA treatments.......Can anyone answer to that with any degree of certainty?
"If oxalic acid is used properly, there is absolutely no risk of problems with the honey."

From.....
Anton Imdorf1 and Eva Rademacher2 European Working Group for Integrated Varroa Control 1 Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux, SwissBee Research Center, CH-3003 Bern 2 Freie Universität Berlin, Institut für Biologie/Neurobiologie, Königin-Luise-Strasse 28-30, DE-14159 Berlin
 
#17 ·
I don't think anyone can, I've seen the subject raised before and nobody could say with any certainty that there were any harmful chemicals left.

For me, all I can say is I use the cheapo "dirty" OA, ie, not medical grade just the stuff used for bleaching timber decks. Probably got a bit of dirt in it, don't know.
 
#18 ·
> does anyone know the gram to volume (in teaspoons or ml) conversion rate for OA?

Randy Oliver has extensive information about using oxalic acid against varroa on his site. The page linked below is regarding the correct proportions for the "dribble" method, but coincidentally offers an oxalic acid grams to teaspoon conversion:
Discarding the outlier (spoon was probably not leveled off) the average value is 3.7g oxalic acid per teaspoon.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-treatment-table/
 
#21 ·
My complaint has been that many beekeepers mishandle OA. It's more than just not knowing how to get the correct final OA concentration in syrup when using the dihydrate.

In my opinion, it's far more of a health and safety risk to the beekeepers themselves.

I've seen it in videos being measured and mixed on kitchen counters, vaporized with the beekeeper getting a good wiff of the vapor (w/o protection), etc. .
 
#24 ·
I'm going to take this opportunity to agree with WLC. I've told the story before...purchased a vaporizer (this was like 10 years ago), used it one fall. I have the thing sitting around and meet someone at the local bee club that is looking for one, I don't need or want mine anymore and it was worth $75 to the beekeeper...seems like a no brainer to sell it to him.

...until we start talking and it becomes clear that he doesn't understand anything...he is planning to vaporize liquid formic acid in the thing. I told him I couldn't find the vaporizer and never sold it to him...I didn't think it was safe for him to have, and I'd rather someone else sell him one if he really wants to try.

Vaporizing and/or mixing OA is no joke. IMHO, selling vaporizers that can't be used legally (especially with the food security awareness/regulations that are coming into play) isn't a joke either...especially if the customer is mislead by claims of safety and effectiveness and not told by the person taking their money that they will be in violation of the law if they use the product. Such a warning/disclaimer seems like a minimum amount of respect and care one can show to their customers.

deknow
 
#27 ·
Vaporizing and/or mixing OA is no joke. IMHO, selling vaporizers that can't be used legally (especially with the food security awareness/regulations that are coming into play) isn't a joke either...especially if the customer is mislead by claims of safety and effectiveness and not told by the person taking their money that they will be in violation of the law if they use the product. Such a warning/disclaimer seems like a minimum amount of respect and care one can show to their customers. deknow
There are NO misleading claims of efficacy, OA works. As to using it safely, the website and instructions clearly state precautions needed. It has been stated over and over that OA is a pesticide and is not approved as a mitecide EVEN tho the rest of the world uses it as mitecide. It's been mentioned in this thread and others several times.

OA misuse is no different than other products that are misused, mishandled or abused.
 
#26 ·
This Swiss government site offers considerable "official" information on oxalic acid treatment in hives, including a version in the English language:

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en

One of the documents available includes a study on operator safety when applying oxalic acid to hives, including using the vaporization method. The conclusion of the study ...
Thus, based on the presented data, a commercial apiarist could use oxalic acid treatments during the whole year 40 hours a week without damaging his health.

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imker...O2Yuq2Z6gpJCDeHt,gWym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--
Of course, appropriate safety measures need to be used. Click the link for more details.
 
#35 ·
One of the documents available includes a study on operator safety when applying oxalic acid to hives, including using the vaporization method. The conclusion of the study ...
I think it prudent to point out that this was a small number of beekeepers (20) who were being watched and had extra measuring equipment setup. I know that I do things differently in the beeyard when people are around and when I'm alone (it's especically important to take stings heroically if there are girls around)...never mind if there is a researchers with specialized equipment setup.

The conclusion doesn't meet with my own observations that you don't want to breath the fumes coming off the vaporizer...I know from experience.

deknow
 
#31 ·
snl: Maybe it's time for you, and other OA product providers, to form an industry group and get the ball rolling on formal registration of OA for mite treatments. No one is stepping up to the plate.
It's going to take some one/group/organization that's larger than the few manufactures/distributors of vaporizers to move this along. There is little or no financial gain to be made from this. OA Vaporizers are legal, OA is legal, what is illegal is using the OA as mitecide in a US beehive again even tho the rest of the world is doing so. I'm talking to my State Senator, talk to yours as well ... we'll see

Larry
 
#30 ·
EPA registration is a very expensive process. The current application fee alone is $597,693.00 (EPA calls it a "registration service fee". See category 020 (mentions beehives specifically) at this link:

http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/fees/pri...pretations.pdf

Of course, that is just the registration fee. No doubt you will also need an army of lawyers :eek: to prepare the documents.
 
#33 ·
One might look at Tommy Chong's incarceration and think about what it means to be selling and marketing a device specifically to do something that isn't legal.

deknow
 
#39 ·
To me thats a pretty good parallel and a good example of why the government shouldn't get involved in victimless crime and not an example of why they should or why we need to pay more attorneys, fill out more paperwork and give Big Brother more dollars. If innocent people are put at risk it's one thing but at some point personal accountability needs to kick in here. Hardware stores and gas stations everywhere sell products that must be handled with care yet the public demands these products be available. Are you also concerned about the health of those using it as a wood bleach? Is your primary concern beekeeper safety or is your issue that you think oa is harmful to bee hives and affecting the health of the worlds bee hives. If so just say so and start a thread on it. It's a more important topic than whether someone who chooses to vaporize oa accidentally inhales some and then whether he is smart enough to either stop or take more precautions. Personally it's one of the main reasons I choose to use it as a dribble and not a vapor.
 
#40 ·
Why did you ask such an open question if you didn't want discussion?

One would think that _adding_ safety warnings to a website would be a better solution to not having them there than deleting the posts pointing out that they aren't there....if safety of one's customers was a concern.

deknow
 
#42 · (Edited)
One would think that _adding_ safety warnings to a website would be a better solution to not having them there than deleting the posts pointing out that they aren't there....if safety of one's customers was a concern. deknow
The warning is there. If you choose not to read it or view it or it does not meet with your satisfaction, that's fine. But a discussion on how I run my website is not up for discussion.
 
#41 ·
What would be the result pif selling the honey to consumers, do we need to mark it as treated with an unapproved pesticide? it is so attractive because it seems easy and cheap but I fear the implications of using something that has not been studied by the FDA (or the EPA or whoever does these things !). When a customer asks me if I treat i do tell them what I treat with (MAQs and API LIFE) and explain that formic acid is natural in the hive and that the thymol comes from Thyme plants and is not used with supers on, not sure what to tell them if I used OA, so I have to stay away from against the complaints of my wallet and my better sense.
 
#44 ·
not sure what to tell them if I used OA, so I have to stay away from against the complaints of my wallet and my better sense.
That OA is natural in many leafy vegetables. That the rest of the world is using it and in fact many, many, many commercial beekeepers in the US are using it.

The point of this thread was to ask why your are not using it and some have replied to that simple question. You do not have to use it at all. It is up to you.
 
#45 ·
snl:

I see the issue as being related not so much to it's safety for bees or honey.

I've gone over the safe handling issue before.

While beekeepers can get OA in various pure forms in other countries, whether it's tablets for use by small scale beekeepers to use in a syrup dribble, or in powder form for vaporization, that's not the case here in the U.S..

So, it becomes an issue of where to get OA in the right grade/purity.
 
#47 ·
Surely Dean, that warning on a can of paint isn't what keeps you from inhaling it? I'll bet you wouldn't do that even if the warning wasn't on it. ;) Hopefully there is a commonsense balance within this issue.

Mod, feel free to delete if this is off topic in this thread.
 
#55 ·
Surely Dean, that warning on a can of paint isn't what keeps you from inhaling it? I'll bet you wouldn't do that even if the warning wasn't on it. ;) Hopefully there is a commonsense balance within this issue.
Mod, feel free to delete if this is off topic in this thread.
...at least if I didn't know any better, it was disclosed clearly to me on the label that not only should I not do it (for some legal reason) but that it will do me harm.
If the label on the OA I purchase doesn't tell me how to heat it to sublimation temps safely how do I know what precautions are necessary?
I'm reminded of Sam Comfort talking about his days working for a beekeeper (by himself in isolation) when the mites started to ravage the bees.
First came the bulk Coumaphos in a plastic tub to be applied with an ice cream scoop...then came the bulk formic acid that burned through his gloves (and I think a finger).

The safety aspects are being ignored by the OA manufacturers (because this use isn't even on their radar and they can't sell it for this purpose anyways), and those promoting its use don't seem to be focused on the safety issues.

deknow
 
#49 ·
Jim,
I think safety is the primary issue here.

Yes, much of the safety issues have to do with the fact that it isn't legal (and therefore is a bit clandestine)...an unfortunate fact.

I also think there are other reasons not to use it (damage to the malphagian tubules was well documented last time I looked...and certainly if harming the microflora is to be avoided OA is a terrible choice)....but these come in second for me, at least as far as why it shouldn't be touted as a cureall without some very strong (and unavoidable) precautions be required and well spelled out for the user.

I'm not (and wasn't at the time) in favor of sending Chong to jail for selling pipes...but it was predictable...he did what everyone else in that business knew not to do....he marketed those pipes for smoking pot...every other pipe on the market (before the recent decriminalization efforts) was being sold for tobacco use only.

The folks that sell the OA (not the vaporizer) and who put together the MSDS for the product are not doing so so that it can be vaporized (at least in the US)...it lists a melting point, but not a vaporization point. The precautions do briefly mention vapor, but barely...they are more concerned with the dust....they say to "avoid high temperature and ignition sources". The MSDS basically says not to use it in an OA vaporizer.

Some things can be used for other purposes without thinking too much about it (you can hammer in a nail with a hive tool), but taking a strong organic acid and heating it until it sublimates into a vapor is not a small thing...and it's not something that the label of the OA is going to give you good advice about.

Seems like if I'm telling you it is a good idea, if I tell you it works, if I tell you that you can go buy the OA anywhere (but not from me), if I tell you I will sell you the simple and effective tool that will allow you to vaporize OA in your hive and kill the mites....seems like a good time to point out that it isn't legal to use and that there are some important safety precautions to take.

I agree with SNL about how legal treatments are often misused...I've seen it over and over. Sometimes the user "knows better" than the label...but oftentimes they just don't understand what they are supposed to do. I'd like to see users and potential users have the legality and precautions in front of them in big letters so that they are making an informed decision.

deknow
 
#51 ·
I agree with SNL about how legal treatments are often misused...I've seen it over and over. Sometimes the user "knows better" than the label...but oftentimes they just don't understand what they are supposed to do. I'd like to see users and potential users have the legality and precautions in front of them in big letters so that they are making an informed decision. deknow
That's fine, but pick another forum.
 
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