Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Fogging your bees?

58K views 141 replies 31 participants last post by  Stephenpbird 
#1 ·
So who has fogged there bees and it worked?
I seen the fat bee guy youtube using mineral oil does this work?
 
#36 ·
Jim, I have read one study that indicated a mite is dead with 2 minutes of exposure. I am not sure that treating once a week for 3 weeks has anything to do with how long a mite is exposed as it has to do with exposing as many mites as possible as bees emerge. the brood cycle of a bee is 21 days. somewhat explains the 3 week connection. Only 13 of those days are spent in a sealed cell so there is actually an additional week in the recommended treatment.

In addition no matter what treatment you use you are still trying to get to the same mite. With the same life cycle and presenting the same problems to get at it.

Finally you have the life span of the treatment to consider. If fogging remains effective for 7 days any mite the comes out of a cell is exposed. For the entire week. not just when fogging is under way. Fogging breaks down the oil to minute particles and coats the hive better is how I understand it. it is not the fog itself that is killing the mites. it is the presence of the oil in the hive. Treating mites with oil is nothing new. I was doing it in the early 70's.

I also suspect fogging has never caught on in part because it requires time and effort. As well as needs to be repeated week after week. I am not sure the repeated application is necessary though depending on how long the oil remains effective in the hive.
 
#38 ·
Yes, and unless your treatment is constantly available to kill the varroa as it emerges and quickly reinfests then the one week time frame is nothing more than an arbitrary number. Why not every day for 21 days?
 
#39 ·
Jim do you take cold medicine none stop until the symptoms go away? I have heard you will get cured of a cold right fast that way. You are still thinking the only time a mite gets killed is the moment the fog is in the hive. a fogging according to the video kills mites fro 21 days. Fogging is just the application method. Not the treatment period. Think about it a while. Or are you just more interested in making a ridiculous argument?
 
#45 ·
Or are you just more interested in making a ridiculous argument?
Daniel is certainly an acknowledged expert in "making a ridiculous argument." :eek: Here is one of his classics, in reference to Superstorm Sandy:
At one time I heard this is supposed to be some sort of perfect storm thing though with the hurricane meeting a cold front. I can't find much on that though. At any rate you have a pansy storm that is only gong to get the crap kicked out of it for the next 12 hours or so before it makes a move that will kick more of the crap out of it before it really reaches anyone. And the problem is?
You can see the quote in context in the thread by clicking the blue arrow in the quote box.

:ws:
 
#42 ·
Copied from the link on Varroa mites concerning the life cycle of the mite.

Within a hive mites can reproduce on a 10-day cycle. The female mite, after detaching from an adult bee, will enter the cell of an uncapped brood. The mite shows preference for the drone brood, but will select what is available. Once the cell is sealed, the female will begin to lay eggs and then expire. As the young bee develops, so will the mites. As soon as the new bee is able to leave its berthing cell, the mites attach themselves and start the cycle anew. The life cycle of the Varroa mite is dependant on the existence of brood within a colony.

The mite has a 10 day cycle. Brood is capped for 13 days for workers 14 days for drones.

In a colony where eggs are constantly being laid there is a constant emergence. Also a constant appearance of young female mites looking for the next cell.

One question I still have. How long is a fogging effective? By the above every mite in a colony would be exposed in 14 days tops. Some other treatments are recommended for twice that long.

The life cycle of the mite is not nearly as important as how often it is exposed to the colony. And that is going to be every moment for 14 days at least.
 
#43 ·
The interval of any type of treatment should be the length of time that the treatment is effective, its really just that simple. If there is evidence that fgmo fogging kills mites for 7 days then it should be used every 7 days. If the 7 day interval just seems like a good number because its divisible by 21 then I wouldnt consider that anything more than an arbitrary number. I am going to leave it to others to argue about if and for how long fgmo kills mites, unlike some on this forum I post about things I have experience in and I hope my real life experience helps others, I have never claimed expertise in the realm of fgmo fogging.
 
#44 ·
Listened to FatBeeMan again and he says once a week and them suggest once every three weeks. Seems to work for him.

Point is that mineral oil needs to be applied repeatedly to be effective.
 
#46 ·
Could someone address my question as to whether any real studies have been done, not just a personal observation, on whether FGMO has a negative effect on bees or queen when used regularly, say every week or so? The FGMO is an oil, so it doesn't really evaporate away when it attaches to the bees or interior of hive, so how does it not build up over time? John
 
#48 ·
Jim here is one from 1999.
http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/mineral_oil.htm

nearly everything else I have found so far refers back to the above report in some manner or other. I have located other sites by doing a search for fogging bees with mineral oil. in one case Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez gives a detailed description of how to do it.
http://mainebee.com/articles/mineral_part2.php

I also found this from 2011.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocfiles/930075FNE08.641KeyserFinalReport.pdf

Copied from the above link

5. Results
Data obtained throughout this three-year project clearly suggests the success of FGMO/thymol fogging as a natural, cost-effective and sustainable method of Varroa mite control on the honey bee.
Much of the success of FGMO/thymol fog for Varroa mite control is evident in the data provided on the average mite count graphs below, but there are also many indirect and informal observations that support the use and recommendation of fogging. Some of these observations include overall strength and vitality of the experimental hives (observed by activity of honey bees at the hive entrance), honey production, over wintering success, and swarming (due to the vigor and population of the experimental hives).
 
#54 ·
Rader, You still haven't found anything to say about bees yet? I realize we all value your perfected onion. But maybe you can learn something about the subject matter once in a while. Your not all that interesting.
 
#56 ·
> I have not seen one report that indicates that mineral oil is not effective.

Read Randy Oliver's comments at ScientificBeekeeping.com Here's the link:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/ipm-7-the-arsenal-natural-treatments-part-2/

You need to read the page in its entirety, but here is a short quote:
The “fixed” oils–vegetable or food-grade mineral oil (FGMO), or hydrogenated shortening (Crisco) are also often used. Although grease or oil patties have been proven to be effective against tracheal mite (by disrupting its questing behavior), I haven’t had any luck in finding verifiable data demonstrating success in using fixed oils to control varroa. However, fixed oil may be useful as a carrier to distribute essential oils. Indeed, the specific type of oil carrier greatly affects the absorption and excretion of essential oils (Wilson & Isman 2006).​
 
#59 ·
Barry, in all honesty, I don't think there is any treatment for mites that has lasting merit to it, that's why a new treatment comes along every couple years or so. I think every treatment that has been invented has done some good towards mite population reduction, some are better than others. I don't want to divert this thread into another treat or not treat discussion, so I won't, but to say one form of treatment isn't worth using (I know you are not saying this) in favor of another is not helping us gain any ground on varroa, because none of them do the job we are looking for, which is complete erradication of mites in the hive, isn't that what we all hope for in a treatment or new genetics? John
 
#60 ·
No one finds it odd that the guy who first started broadcasting the use of FGMO is silent and nowhere to be found? Nothing new on it since it was made public on discussion forums many years ago? It appears to me to be more like another Housel Positioning. Use it if you want. Broadcast your success with it. I've never had the need to try it. Got a brand new fogger to sell someone!
 
#61 ·
I don't doubt some find it odd that Dr. Pedro has been so silent, is he still alive? Maybe he has nothing more to add to his original findings, maybe there was a slight improvement with the use of FGMO fogging, but that's it. What more are you looking for on fogging? What more is there to speak about concerning powdered sugar dusting? Hundreds still do it I'm sure, but its effectiveness still doesn't change from its initial use years ago. Unless some of these old treatments can be delivered in a new way which increases its benefit against mites, they're just old treatments. John
 
#63 ·
Most people who use the fogging believe it is working for them probably without keeping records but just from their hands on view. For the most part it seems from reading actual research, although it doesn't devastate varroa, it does seem to set them back giving the bees a fighting chance against them.

I'd also say from what I've read it's an inexpensive way to at least combat varroa and seems to be more effective than sugar dusting as well. I do not use anything right now but I have thought about using fogging, I do believe it's the thymol and have read where beehives near thyme are productive and healthy.
 
#64 ·
He graduated Veterinary school in 1962. If he was 24 at that time it makes him 74 now. 62 at the time he wrote that report. Is it surprising that someone retires? He may very well have passed way.

In a search of his name I have come up with two different people one of which is obviously our Pedro. and at least one link clearly indicates he was banished from forums for proposing this method. Evidence of the venomous rejection I am aware of. And also indicating it is beekeepers and not Pedro that have prevented this information from being common knowledge.

A member was banned form a group simply for trying to tell others where to find further information or follow Pedro.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=18264.0;wap2

I found this from 2001
http://www.apicultura.com.ar/apis47en.html
included int the link above is this comment.
Pedro is Graduate in Zootechny by the University of Puerto Rico; Graduate in Veterinary science in the University Of Alcalá de Henares of Madrid and Doctorate in Veterinary science in the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia (USA).
At the moment he is retired as high official of the Agriculture office of the USA

So the study was concluded in 1999 and Pedro was retired in 2001.

The deleted thread was dated 2008. So some sharing of this methods was still going on as of then. The trail of that information was broken over one forums spat with another. So just who is to blame there as to the break in information.

in searching beemaster for information I came across this link.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=169445
A 6 week study that concluded there is no benefit to FGMO fogging of hives.

That is as far as I have been able to tack any sort of trail concerning FGMO fogging. The trail does go on. I woudl like to know where Pedro moved to from beemaster though. The one thread i did start to read ont eh subject there was full of grossly inaccurate information.
 
#66 ·
I spoke with Dr Rodriguez on the phone several years ago and he sent me Thymol crystals and some literature on Thymol Fogging and Cords. At that time I remember him saying that he was thinking about closing down his VA Non-Profit Honey Bee Research operation in Virginia Beach to relocate permanently to Spain. I sensed in the conversation he was extremely frustrated at the push back he was receiving from the general beekeeping community. At this point in time it sounded like he had abandoned the theory that FGMO alone was effective at controlling mites, but he was confident that if Thymol FGMO Fogging & Thymol Soaked Cords were both used on a regular basis that is was a very effective mite control method. I'm not sure if he is still with us or not, I think he was in his 90's back then.

I have a fogger stored in my garage that never gets used anymore. It may work effectively with Thymol, but I do not have the time to keep up with it religiously as outlined in Pedro's protocol. I'm successfully addressing mites with other methods that are not as time consuming in their application as fogging is.
 
#67 ·
Maryland Beekeeper, what's wrong with complete eradication? Did we not have a complete absence of varroa at one time in this country? I would go back to those days in a heartbeat. I think that saying without varroa something else would fill the void quite possibly would happen eventually, as honey bees always seem to have been plagued with some pest or disease in modern history. I still would rather be varroa-less and take my chances with the next pest that comes along, I just despise the nasty bugger. John
 
#71 ·
Mike,
What's quicker than fogging ?
Almost everything else out there is less demanding. Strips, pads, Oxalic Acid, etc. Most are a one or three step process that only takes a few minutes per application. Pedro said that for his fogging method to work properly you need to fog "every" week, excluding periods you are in a nectar flow or if the bees are clustered tight in winter. And Thymol cords must be kept on the top bars continuously. With my other job and family obligations it would not be possible for me to visit all my sites every week to keep up with his protocol. It's just not a good fit for me.

By the way, I'm not promoting or debunking fogging. Just relating what was explained to me. I never used it long enough to determine if it works effectively or not. I tried fogging with Thymol for one season, but not methodically as I should have. It didn't work for me, the mites exploded at the end of summer and I had some serious problems as a result. Had I applied it religiously, it may have worked. I don't know.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top