Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, July 16, 2012

125K views 231 replies 30 participants last post by  cerezha 
#1 · (Edited)
I am in the process of switching to all foundationless in my two Lang hives permitted in Santa Monica, CA.

To me,the foundationless approach has many advantages:
(a) easy to build, no special care required (waxing, wiring, foundation installation etc);
(b) in combination with mediums - it is universal for all bee-hive related tasks (brood chamber, honey supers etc);
(c) freshly made wax, no "drawn comb" worries, no old comb issues;
(d) easy to extract honey especially at the small scale (hobbyist type), crush-and-strain, no special equipment required; shape of the comb is not important; there are byproducts of extraction - honey-vine and wax.
(e) bees choose proper (for them!) size for the comb cells; they maintain proper bee-space in accordance to their needs.

I am harvesting a few totally foundationless "frames" every few weeks. Note that there is only a top bar from the standard frame has been shown in one picture.

Disclaimer: Welcome to this thread. This post has no intention to discuss comparison between foundation and foundationless, frame or frameless approaches. It is for pictures of your foundationless/frameless achevements in Lang hive! Please, feel free to post pictures of your foundationless/frameless latest honey crop here. Sergey
 

Attachments

See less See more
4
#102 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

>So, I guess the strategy would be that frame should be large enough (long) to accommodate most of the nest (brood) but not much honey.

In our mild climates yes...but in the real world - no. I think Brother Adam liked his 12 frame Jumbo depth boxes because they were big enough for the queen and winter stores. But for you and I they are also honey vaults that need robbing to keep them open. I am starting to think that an eight frame Jumbo depth brood chamber would be good for us as it would push the UN-needed winter stores up into the honey supers. I think I feel yet another footprint of hives coming.
 
#109 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

.. I am starting to think that an eight frame Jumbo depth brood chamber would be good for us as it would push the UN-needed winter stores up into the honey supers. I think I feel yet another footprint of hives coming.
Interesting. As a novice in beekeeping, I was exited with all-mediums approach because it is simple and universal. But reality pushing me towards non-symmetrical hive with bigger frames in the nest. I nearly get into another extreme - super-large frames, but you helped me to understand that this is not the best solution for our situation ether. Many thanks!
 
#103 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Great thanks...I am thinking either of popsicle sticks or just using some of the extra foundation I have...cutting it into strips..however I don't have any wax...can't I just glue it? Another person suggested paint sticks but, the ones I brought home looked kind of warped.
 
#104 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Halley,
I think you'd be better off not using the sticks. I've never tried it, but I've heard from others that using paint or popcicle sticks make the comb less sturdy than if the bee's drew their wax directly on the frame and it doesn't always ensure that the comb gets drawn out in the right direction. Last year I had no problem with the bees drawling out on empty foundation. For my setup I had each empty frame nested between two frames with foundation and that ensured that the bees drew the comb in the right direction. I use deeps and I would say that last year's drawn frames needed some additional support to keep it sturdy. I'm addressing that this year by adding small wooden dowels (the thinnest ones you can get at home depot). Lowe's supposedly has even thinner dowels. My idea is to have these frames be used for multiple purpose (could be used for drone comb, natural sized brood comb, cut comb honey, etc) so my dowels are strategically placed in a way that I can cut off the bottom of the comb for drones, or fit the cutting tool for cutting squares out for honey, etc. I'm trying out a couple different configurations with the dowels to see what works best. Will see how it goes this year.
 
#105 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Thanks, BayHighlandBees..dowels see like a much better alternative than popsicle sticks...having hubby bring home some tomorrow(he works in a hardware stor) The smallest is 1/8" and then the next size is a quarter..so we'll see.
 
#110 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Hi Cerezha,
I have another question about foundationless..do you put one extra frame in the box(so if you use an 8 frame you'd put 9 or 10 frame you'd use 11). I read about this in Mike Bush's book..he says he shaves the ends down to 1-1/4(from 1-3/8). My nucs are coming tomorrow...I am putting them into an 8 frame hive. I'm putting one deep with foundationless frames with dowels for comb guides in the bottom box and then putting the frames from the nuc and remaining extra frames into the 2nd hive body. This was suggested by someone I have been following on the LetMeBee blog..he has had good success with this. So I guess I need to know if you or others who use foundationless frames put an extra frame in?...do you shave the frames down?, if you do shave them with what tool?, and if I can't get to this before tomorrow should I just put the standard number of frames for the 8 frame? Or just stick a 9th frame in without shaving the ends down and see what happens?..if Mike Bush is on this I would so appreciate a response. And I appreciate any other responses as well. Thanks, Halley
 
#112 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Hi Cerezha,
I have another question about foundationless..... Halley
Halley - Have deep respect to Mike Bush and really think that all his advises are really good. From another hand, in beekeeping, it is always that the same thing could be achieved using different ways... For my hives, I do not use thinner frames. My initial rationale was to have a slightly bigger space between frames (bees), so varroa will have a space to fell directly into my screened bottom. It is more difficult to achieve when bee-streets are more crowded... I think my approach is OK in So California because it is warm here. With your new nucs, I personally would just stay with conservative approach: move all nuc's frames (as they were in the nuc!) in the center of the box and surround them with foundationless frames. Close the box and leave them alone at least for 7-10 days. Let them to be at home. Watch them from outside (any pollen delivered?). If everything going well and bees building up the comb and there are three (or more) full frames with capped brood - than, I would gradually insert empty foundationless frame in the center of the nest. Let them build, add another one and sop on. I would not add 2nd box with empty foundationless frames - in my hands, it did not work well. My bees prefer gradual expansion. See, every person has its own approach! Good luck with your bees - post a pictures!!!
 
#111 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

I'm using foundationless deep frames in my long hive. After a lot of research, I used triangular comb guides that come to a sharp point. These are cut to fit fairly tightly between the end bars, and secured to the frame with glue and a couple brads. I believe this is the best approach; it's the one used by most beekeepers for many decades after movable frame hives came into general use, but before foundation became available. It gives a lot more attachment surface than just the plain frame, because the bees attach the comb to both sides of the triangular guide, so about twice the attachment surface.

To stabilize the comb for handling, I use monofilament fishing line strung through the middle holes.

So far it's working great, and the bees are drawing out the frames perfectly.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/newcombmar29hive1.jpg
 
#113 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

... I used triangular comb guides that come to a sharp point....
To stabilize the comb for handling, I use monofilament fishing line strung through the middle holes.
.... http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/newcombmar29hive1.jpg
Beautiful comb! Great picture! Many thanks for sharing! Yes, I agree that triangle is probably the best guide. The reason, I am not using it is just technical - I do not have a table-saw (or other facility) to do 45 degree cut. Post more pictures to show people that foundation is not necessary! Sergey
 
#117 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

...Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees...[/url]
Very long paper... I do not think, it is applicable to my situation: (1) screened bottom; (2) I recognize two layers of bees between frames - each for its own side of the frame. In paper they model bees as a porous plug completely blocking the whole space between frames. I do not think it is realistic approximation. I think, more proper way would be to model each frame as a surface with two "heating pads" attached and space between them... in such scenario, convectional component would be more noticeable. Again, the model did not count that in winter, the density of bees is much higher than in summer...
 
#119 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

So how do you set this space up...screened bottom board?QUOTE=BernhardHeuvel;918781]What I wanted to say, before the computer crashed, is, that the study shows...I cite:
(b) the routing of the flow at lower Tamb is seen to heat the air entering the beehive before it enters into the bee space. This heating up is enhanced by the vortices and counter current flow setup present in the space between the frames in brood chamber and the bottom board;

And this is what many other beekeepers and myself do experience, that a space below the bottom and brood box is beneficial. Mustn't be a full box, but 8 cm height is enough to be beneficial.

All other ends, the upper part, sides and so, they do not like much of empty space and fill it with comb. Bottom is different.[/QUOTE]
 
#121 · (Edited)
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

My bees need more space. The horizontal hive got another deep box - yes, oldtimer, they DO expand vertically when they wanted and have a chance! Horizontal part of the hive, which is not under the top boxes contains nectar and honey with some 1/2 done combs. The part, which was under the top box and top box itself were all brood! Now they got another deep box on top of the first one. These two deep boxes were checker-boarded with my new-design top bars (with the sides). Bees behaved extremely well, no head bumps at all! Another vertical hive just got another box with checker-boarding again. These girls were quite protective, which is great - it was a weak hive for while and now they feel more confident! I am posting some pictures of the frames from the deep horizontal hive. Mediums-vertical - beautiful comb, but we have already million of similar pictures above.
 

Attachments

#122 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Hey Sergey,

my bees in the long hive seem to be doing well. They've drawn out several frames, and seem to be raising a lot of brood. I'm waiting for a package of small cell bees to get here for the second hive.

Table Furniture Desk


Bee Honeybee Beehive Insect Apiary


Bee Honeycomb Honeybee Beehive Insect


I have to say that beekeepers who use foundation are missing out on a great pleasure. It's truly fascinating to see the bees doing exactly what bees do.
 
#123 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

... I have to say that beekeepers who use foundation are missing out on a great pleasure. It's truly fascinating to see the bees doing exactly what bees do.
Look at this! Absolutely beautiful comb and frames! I absolutely agree that foundationless is so fascinating! It is such pleasure to see literally a "stick" with beautiful full-size comb full of bees attached! Every time I do it - I feel, I am very proud of my bees!
Well, as always with my bees, the horizontal hive is not horizontal anymore... I was tried "scientifically" split my horizontal hive into deep box sitting on top of the horizontal hive... Idea was that these two were separated by double-screen... it was suggested that it's easiest and gentle way of splitting... it did not work at all. I do not know what was happening, but first time ever I saw dead bees at the entrance... so I removed the double-screen and top box become the part of the "house". Girls very enthusiastically filled top box with nectar. I was waiting, when they capped it to remove the box and restore "horizontality"... well - last time I open the hive - they moved nest into this box. I do not know what they did with nectar, but top box now contains brood squeezed between honey - thus, the brood pattern is not such nice as yours - I am jealous! As I posted above, I checker-board top box and now I have two deeps horizontally and two deeps vertically!

I really like your horizontal hives!

Sergey
 
#124 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Thanks, Sergey

Bees are almost as complicated as beekeepers, aren't they?

I really think the long hives are a good idea for beginners like me. It's so simple to work them, since the top boards under the tin roofing are in 8-frame-sized sections, so you never have to open the whole hive to get at one frame. There's always a place to lay your hive tool and smoker. Little danger of rolling the queen, because until the box fills up completely, you can just slide frames down a ways and get plenty of room around the frame you want to pull. It may be my imagination, but I think they're calmer as well-- at least they seem calmer than they did in the yard the nuc came from. No one has offered to sting me yet, though to be fair, I haven't given them much opportunity-- I suit up like a spaceman every time. My wife, who took these snapshots, isn't suited up when I open the hive, and hasn't been bothered at all. Up on legs as these are, there's no bending over to speak of, which makes it easier to be slow and graceful with your movements, so you are less likely to annoy the bees.

I have to admit, before I got my first bees, I was fascinated with them in theory, but now I'm completely smitten. It's relaxing to just sit and watch them at their work, in the same way that watching a tank of tropical fish is relaxing... but better. You don't get honey from fish.
 
#126 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Another brood pic from long hive:

Bee Beehive Honeycomb Food Membrane-winged insect


The new hive has bees now, and they're building comb pretty fast:

Bee Honeybee Beehive Honeycomb Apiary


I really like my long hives. I think they may make for calmer bees. The second hive, which is completely unrelated to the first, is just as sweet. I installed the package in a 6 frame space, with a bit of comb from the first hive to give the new bees an encouraging start. There were lots of eggs in the new comb just 4 days after installation.
 
#128 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Another brood pic from long hive... I think they may make for calmer bees. ...
Beautiful pictures! I absolutely agree that horizontal design when all frames available is much less invasive and thus - bees are less agitated. Interesting observation- since my bees are expanding vertically now in my horizontal beehive - they are actually more protective/aggressive.
 
#130 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Welll
Yes and no. I did try many things with that hive- yes, I put an empty box on top, than at the bottom (poor bees),than back on top and put a few deep-size drawn frames in to create the bridge... did not help at all!!! Than,as soon as I moved them in the horizontal hive - they filled up 20 deep "frames" (TBs) within few weeks! The reason I decided to split, because they rich the capacity of the long hive in few weeks and needed more space. Split was pathetic: I chekerboard the broodnest into another deep, which was placed on top with double-screen. After few days, I noticed dead bees - first time ever. Top deep was empty of bees... I removed the double-screen and it become the part of original hive. Few weeks later, I did an inspection and top deep was full of uncapped honey (nectar?) I decided to wait and when it capped - remove it and restore the normal configuration of the hive - horizontal. .. Two weeks later, I discovered the brood in the top box and honey. I could not remove the honey because of brood... I do not use queen-excluder. I just chekerboard the top one - now 2 deeps on the top. As a result, I have two-deep tall and two deep-long beehive in L shape (total 4 deeps!) I am sure, it is very special! Bees are not very happy with this... I am looking for the opportunity to shrink this monster. On top of this - all "frames" are actually top bars - it is scary to move these humongous frames attached only to the top! So far no one broke and all of them perfectly straight, but I want to add some support to the sides of the bars. Since it is hobby - I have a lot of fun with my girls. I am not sure if they agree on this - they are deadly serious and all about business!
 
#131 · (Edited)
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Sounds like it's going well, and exactly shows the advantage of being able to add supers.

Shrinking it at this time of year? Be better to add some more supers. Especially as you describe them fitting nectar in among the brood cells, a sign the bees may be thinking about swarming, if you do not add some more room they may shrink themselves for you. :)
 
#132 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

I checkerboard them just 2 (?) weeks ago - hopefully they will not swarm now... I am going to check them this week weather permitted (last 2 days were very gloomy). Adding another super scares me - I had last season 6-meds tall monster and I had a nightmares what if earthquake happened... we are expecting a big earthquake ...sometime...
As for flexibility to add supers to the horizontal beehive - yes, I agree that this was good idea. I incorporated this possibility when made the long hive. It is really a lot of fun to keep bees, made own equipment... eat honey
 
#133 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Well checkerboarding a split is probably the wrong thing and could have contributed to it failing, best if making a split to keep everything together. However when you pulled the divider it would have been just right for the bees to move into the super.

However just that you checkerboarded that box does not mean they will not swarm, going by what you describe.

Don't worry about the hive being 6 mediums tall, that's only the equivalent of around 4 deeps, not a big hive, my honey producing hives go 5 to 6 deeps tall, no worries, even in an earthquake. There has been beekeepers in my country having hives knocked over in an earthquake but it has to be a big one that can also demolish buildings. None of mine have ever been knocked over in an earthquake.
 
#134 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Well checkerboarding a split is probably the wrong thing and could have contributed to it failing, best if making a split to keep everything together. ..
Yes, I agree, it was mistake.
As for earthquake - my bees are on the narrow terrace and could easily flip over... I really have nightmares how all boxes with bees roll down to the street and cloud of angry bees... very visual. 5-6 deeps - WOW!!!! Than, I need to make more hardware - I am running out of deeps. How big earthquakes you have? We suppose to have 7 or 9 (forgot) within 30-years time-frame.
 
#135 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

You can't restrict your hive just incase there's a monster earthquake, live like that you'll never do anything!

How big earthquakes we have? We have everything from small to big, last extra big one was couple years ago, really tore the ground up and killed (from memory) roughly 200 people (should be able to google Christchurch earthquake)

Yes my honey making hives go 5 or 6 deeps high, earthquakes or not. A Beesource member from Canada just came over & helped me harvest around 2 months ago the hives were choca, really heavy, I'm getting older & very much appreciated the help.
 
#136 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Is any particular reason, you prefer deeps for supers? It looks like, there in US commercial people use mostly mediums. It is really sweet that beesource member helped you to collect the honey-crop. You are heading into the winter now, right? Beekeepers are really nice people (if not talking about neonics :)) I wish to have an opportunity to work bees with real expert - unfortunately, it is unlikely until I've retired. At that time, I probably will made all my mistakes and mentor would not be necessary... but who knows... I wish your bees sleep well in winter and wake up in spring full of energy!
 
#137 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Is any particular reason, you prefer deeps for supers?
Just economy, plus less work/handling. And, it's easier on the bees than having small combs with lots of breaks in the hive.

I would be surprised if most US commercials used mediums.
 
#139 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless bees in Santa Monica, April 6, 2013

Ha Ha well one apiary does not mean most commercial hives LOL. :)

There is a commercial guy in my country uses mediums, but he's small, and one of those guys who likes to do everything different.
 
#140 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Did some inspection today. There are few pictures from the vertical hive. I did not dig into horizontal - they have plenty of space. Vertical got another box, they are booming.
 

Attachments

#144 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Sergey, have you read what Michael Bush has to say about splits? If I remember correctly, he has various strategies for making splits and keeping them in the same yard.

I took some pictures today of the comb that my new package has made since I installed them a week ago. I thought this was a pretty image:

Honeycomb Bee Beehive Insect Honeybee


These are Wolf Creek small cell bees. So far so good.
 
#146 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Sergey, have you read what Michael Bush has to say about splits? If I remember correctly, he has various strategies for making splits and keeping them in the same yard.

I took some pictures today of the comb that my new package has made since I installed them a week ago. I thought this was a pretty image:

View attachment 5368

These are Wolf Creek small cell bees. So far so good.
Oooo
Beautiful bees and comb! Looks like they are working very hard! One week? I could not believe!

As for split, yes, I read Michael Bush, but I need to read again. Last time I did everything right (in my opinion :(), only bees did not cooperate - I guess, most of them returned to original hive and some were killed... because mother-colony attacked the split (no robbing)... I guess, it was not equal split, and one part was much weaker than another. The good thing is that it worked as a good remedy against swarming. I did not see any swarm preparation at all. Bees are so fascinating! Many thanks for beautiful foundationless pictures!
 
#148 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Oooo
Beautiful bees and comb! Looks like they are working very hard! One week? I could not believe!
Yes, I was pretty surprised too, especially since I was suffering severe anxiety about having directly released the queen. My research convinced me this was the best thing to do, but as a beginner, I always lack confidence in my decisions. I guess I was lucky this time.

Here's a link to Michael Bush's info on splits.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

The local guy I got my first nuc from was trying to feed up a couple of monster hives to take to the river bottom for the tupelo flow. The day my wife and I went up to pick up the nuc, he was kind enough to take us around his yard and open a few of his hives for us-- he knew we had no experience. At any rate, his monster hives were full of swarm cells, so he said he'd have to go through them at length and tear them down. I'd read that it was pretty hard, if not impossible to divert a hive once it had decided to swarm, but I tried to interest him in the concept of a cut-down split, as Michael Bush describes. Well, he had 40 years of experience, and I had none, so you know how that went. I talked to him a few days later, and half his bees had departed to the trees.

But his nuc is going gangbusters for us, drawing beautiful straight comb, and bringing in lots of nectar and pollen.
 
#150 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Oldtimer - it is so nice of you to give me such detailed description. I definitely want girls to rise a new queen, because entire point is to keep local genetics -girls are treatment-free for 4 years already (2 with me) . You made it very clear what was wrong with my first attempt to split - I did not shake enough young bees and most bees migrated back into mother-hive. I am not sure how I could use queen excluder - hopefully it could sit on top of my "bars" in the Lang boxes. Many thanks for such great support and education (always appreciated).
 
#153 ·
Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Sergey, go to your neighbor on the other side of the neighbor who raised a stink and ask him if you can keep a hive in his or her yard, maybe even pay them a little rent money. I'm sure your area can support a lot of bees based on your results so far. And it will teach your busy body neighbor to mind their own business!

I hear the gas meter guys love bees!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top