I really wonder why someone would worry about whom I might consider a commercial beek.
Well, you are the moderator of the commercial forum, and as a participant, have been handing out rather arbitrary and contradictory judgements (both in terms of criteria an specific people) over who is and who isn't commercial.
We are trying to address a question about commercial treatment free beekeepers, we have to know who we are and are not talking about.
From my perspective, all of this adds up to difficulty in even figuring out what anyone is talking about.
Mostly, it is the OBVIOUSLY non commercials I am referring too. We have had some relatively small beekeepers contribute to this thread about their tf operations, and when their example is used as evidence of tf commercials, well, that just won't fly.
Did this happen? I don't remember Michael Bush, Sol, or myself being referred to as commercial beekeepers. The ones I listed, Dee, Kirk, Bob Brachmann, Chris Baldwin, Tim Ives...none of them are "obviously not commercial".
....but I don't consider Michael Bush or Dee Lusby commercial beekeepers.
....and this I don't understand. Michael is not a commercial beekeeper...he is not making his living keeping bees.
Dee does make her living keeping bees....perhaps moreso than someone like Michael Palmer, who likely has health insurance through his wife's job.
If you don't want to have a definition or criteria that's fine, but it seems difficult to make these kinds of characterizations...especially in a case that may not be so clear cut.
If you feel it is denigrating, it is in your mind, not mine.
With all due respect, if you are handing out judgments as to who is and who isn't a commercial beekeeper (which you have been), and you classify some that do rely on bees for the vast majority of their income as not commercial, and some that don't rely on bees for the vast majority of their income as commercial, it is denigrating and belittling to those that have made sacrifices and made things work without the outside help.
Tell Mike Palmer he isn't commercial because his wife has a job, and let me know if he feels if it is denigrating.
Although I have never seen a bee that is truly tf when put into a migratory operation, I won't rule out that one will eventually be developed. We are ALL hoping that, after all.
A few years ago, we attended an entrepreneur workshop. One of the instructors was semi retired from the metals business. He asked everyone the same questions after they presented what their business was going to be:
"What do you want"? ...usually the answer was, "$20,000 to start my deli"..or some such.
But the second question he asked everyone was way more important:
"What are you willing to give up"?
The point being that if you are holding all the cards, yet don't have everything you need (especially capital), you have to give up some of those cards to some extent to get what you need.
I've tried to make this point several times....if this isn't a priority that gets put above some other priorities, it won't just happen.
As for tf failures. It IS a particular problem, in my eyes, due to unrealistic expectations many hold going in. I have no problem people making this choice, more power to them, they just should go into it with open eyes. As there are so many less examples of tf keepers than conventional ones, they are less likely to find a knowledgeable mentor. Add to that the tendency in some tf proponents to minimize the impact of initial probable losses.
I've tried to point out a few times that with all the illegal treating that goes on (no specific accusations, but we all know what goes on) that it isn't fair to characterize TF operations as being somehow secretive about their problems while conventional beekeeping is all out in the open. After all, the losses by Dee, Chris, Kirk, etc are known and in this discussion in the first place because those beekeepers have made this information public. You don't have to read between the lines to know about the losses of any of these beekeepers.
When you come right down to it, if you shadow a tf beek, you are pretty much guaranteed huge losses for at least a couple years, specifically due to the tf. While a conventional beek can also fail for a number of reasons (which all apply to the tf as well), elimination of disease in the operation will have a profound impact on survivability.
That's all true (although I think Michael Bush would argue with some of it)...but you are not considering that there may be long term gains that offset the short term losses.
Commercial still comes down to making money.
Of course it does...but if it only had to do with making "the most money possible", it probably wouldn't be "commercial _beekeeping_".
deknow