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Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, July 16, 2012

125K views 231 replies 30 participants last post by  cerezha 
#1 · (Edited)
I am in the process of switching to all foundationless in my two Lang hives permitted in Santa Monica, CA.

To me,the foundationless approach has many advantages:
(a) easy to build, no special care required (waxing, wiring, foundation installation etc);
(b) in combination with mediums - it is universal for all bee-hive related tasks (brood chamber, honey supers etc);
(c) freshly made wax, no "drawn comb" worries, no old comb issues;
(d) easy to extract honey especially at the small scale (hobbyist type), crush-and-strain, no special equipment required; shape of the comb is not important; there are byproducts of extraction - honey-vine and wax.
(e) bees choose proper (for them!) size for the comb cells; they maintain proper bee-space in accordance to their needs.

I am harvesting a few totally foundationless "frames" every few weeks. Note that there is only a top bar from the standard frame has been shown in one picture.

Disclaimer: Welcome to this thread. This post has no intention to discuss comparison between foundation and foundationless, frame or frameless approaches. It is for pictures of your foundationless/frameless achevements in Lang hive! Please, feel free to post pictures of your foundationless/frameless latest honey crop here. Sergey
 

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#67 ·
Hi
If the frame sit in the beehive for long period of time (more than 2-3 months) than "girls" start doing re-modeling. At this point, everything is possible, but normally they do not attach comb to the bottom for sure (screened bottom) and rare attach comb to the sides. Keep in mind - we are in Southern California, we have no winter and bees worked year around. This approach works the best when you introduce a new frame between two already established. I basically, do checker-boarding. Thanks for the visiting. Sergey
 
#68 ·
Im In the cayman islands and I am thinking about capturing a wild hive.
I only have 1 extra langstroth box to work with so i was thinking of having one of the boxes frameless.
One of the brood boxes will have frames that i will cut out the comb and put them into along with the bees.
As i am leaving to go back to school and I wont be checking the hive for another 2 months what do you think they will do if I just leave them with an empty second body to work into?
I'm thinking about putting the boxes under the cut out comb framed box.
What do you think will happen in the time before I return?

Thanks alot for your help my friend.
 
#69 ·
Hi
I do not think anything good happened - when beehive is just establishing, it needs to be watched quite often. I had bad experience when added an empty box - it was only one time ever when girls made a comb under 45 degree to the frames. I think, in general, bees do no like completely empty box. I have the best results when I add empty frames one by one, not entire empty box. If you limited in hardware (boxes, frames etc) I would suggest to use top-bar hive (TBH) - it is very easy to build and it utilizes foundationless design. The issue with not-straight comb will be similar to Lang, but it seems to me, bees tolerate "emptiness" better in TBH. Goodluck with your project. Sergey
 
#71 ·
I am beginner beekeeper and have limited experience. My feeling is that when hive is establishing, it is better to keep brood area together, without empty frames. Once, bee established (1-2-3 mo?), than you could add more empty frames. During the period of establishing, I think, it is better do not traumatize bees by breaking the nest.
 
#73 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

This season,my bees prefer horizontal hive. Vertical "attachment" to it was my unsuccessful attempt to split the hive. It did not work, as a result - bees got extra space. Now this space 100% full with nectar. There are 2 empty frames in the horizontal part. Looks like, girls are busy.
 

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#78 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Fascinating approach to bee keeping and beautiful pictures. I get my first bees on March 30th. I can't wait to become an active part of this community.
O, thank you so much for nice words! Good luck with your bees ... and be advised - it is addictive!
 
#80 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

I learned how to use a hair-clip on youtube. It works great. I used it to make the comb straight.
Sergey, I have also used the hairclip trick and like it. Your hive is looking well, as always. I got a video camera and have been doing the learning curve. I did some filming of hive inspections, but lost almost all of what I thought was being recorded. I got a camera with bluetooth remote control so I was using my phone for the remote on/off (record) but as soon as the signal was lost record turned off. This probably happened when I set the phone on the hive top to get into the hive. Oh well knowing this I should have some soon. I am getting 3 package bee sets on 6 Apr. and will film that as I am going to all med. super boxes on those 3 hives. I hope to get into the others before then as I have already put supers on the other 3 that have 2 deeps each. All 3 are building comb in the supers and it is interesting to see which one is building faster. The funny thing is that my "weakest" hive of the 3 is building the fastest, but I need to see what is going on in the bottom deep on that hive.
Later my friend, pictures soon.
 
#81 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Oooo, so sad with video, but I understand. I have problems even with photos. If you noticed, there is a gap in postings - just forgot the camera, batteries happened to be dead just "in time" (spare ones as well), bees were too "active" and block the view (literally)... In general, this horizontal hive is full of bees - when I open it, they just "overflow", not because aggressive, but because too many... very difficult to use the camera. Also, full deep frames are very heavy - I could not securely hold them by one hand to take a picture. Thus - most spectacular images from horizontal hive are lost! I completely switched to the top-bars in the horizontal hive - it is quite impressive - huge perfect combs! But, difficult to manipulate because of the weight and no support on the sides and at the bottom. I am thinking to do one step back and provide some sort of support for the comb. There is no way I will return back to the classical frames - I will add support to my existing top-bars.

I am glad to hear that your bees are doing well. I am looking forward to watch your movie! Sergey
 
#83 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

if you are not going back to frames, would your support descend from the middle of the top bar?
Hi BayHighlandBees

No, I do not think so. My bees normally start a new comb from the center of the bar/frame, so I would imagine that obstacle in the center may discourage them to start the comb. Currently,I am thinking about making actual frame but based on my top bar design. I am thinking about a sheet metal thin strip (or aluminum) running on sides and bottom in the place of the frame. The advantage (to me) would be that it's easy to make and attach to existing top bar with the screw; it is easy to cut the comb for crush-and-strain; it is more elegant than a typical frame. Alternatively, I could add just metal strip sides to the top. I would do it only for full-size deep "frames" and mainly for the nest area. I am perfectly happy with my top-bars in the mediums.
 
#85 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Yes, but instead the rod, I will try to use a strip and no foundation. It is really difficult to invent anything in beekeeping. Many thanks for the references. By the way,the second reference is not interesting, it's just a frame with foundation.
 
#86 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Nay, the second reference has a frame with rod bottom "bar". Check out all the references at the end of the first link.

The rod frame doesn't need full foundation. It works alright with a beveled topbar or starter strip and with a follower or something.

Yey, virtually everything in beekeeping has been seen and invented before. In an old German beekeeping book, dating back to the year 1568, the author reports about an observation hive with windows the Romans used and described in books. Also the management of a hive including splits with brood combs, raising queens from cells and all was standard in 1568. Despite using fixed comb in log hives.

For longer combs one may use half length side bars. (in not ao wide hives.) See Tim Malfroy, Australia:







See his website:
http://www.malfroysgold.com.au


Thanks for sharing your comb pictures! May I show them to others outside beesource? Quite some people are interested in fozndation free here in Germany but don't speak or read English.

Bernhard
 
#87 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Bernhard
Many thanks for sharing all these beautiful ideas! Based on my "experiments", the bottom bar is not essential. Thus, "bottom rod" probably is not essential as well. I would imagine, it was used more for mechanical stability of the frame, not comb. The side bars (all way or half) may help to prevent the attachment of the comb to the walls. But in my hands, in medium boxes, side attachment is very small and is not an issue (to me). From another hands, right now, we (me and bees) are migrating towards bigger frames (old story, right?!). I really like Tim Malfroy's approach. In fact, I am planning to do something very similar. If you saw my horizontal hive with "super" on top - what I wanted to do is to remove frames under the "super" from the lower part of the hive (horizontal part) and let bees to extend honeycomb from the "super" all way down into the horizontal part. The beauty of my current design is that I could use a different size boxes (supers). Instead two (as now), I could use one, for instance. But, I am not sure I can do it with my current top bars; at least 1/2 sides is needed.

As for pictures - sure, please, feel free to show them to any bee-enthusiast. Many thanks for visiting this thread and for valuable information! Sergey
 
#88 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

You are inspiring me,...I have two nucs coming and have a 10 frame and 8 frame hive. I am seriously contemplating going the foundationless route in my 8 frame hive..the only thing is that I have 2 deeps and several mediums. I have been corresponding with a guy on the LetMeBee blog who uses deep frames and no wires..anyone else do this? Also I understand that you have to use some kind of guide(popsicle sticks, piece of foundation....)..what have people used here? I so love your pictures. Thanks, Halley
 
#91 · (Edited)
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

You are inspiring me,...I have two nucs coming and have a 10 frame and 8 frame hive. I am seriously contemplating going the foundationless route in my 8 frame hive..the only thing is that I have 2 deeps and several mediums. I have been corresponding with a guy on the LetMeBee blog who uses deep frames and no wires..anyone else do this? Also I understand that you have to use some kind of guide(popsicle sticks, piece of foundation....)..what have people used here? I so love your pictures. Thanks, Halley
Hey Halley, thanks for visiting! There are few deep-size frames without any wires in this thread somewhere above. In fact the picture in post #73 is full deep top bar, not even frame. You need wires, foundation etc. if you plan to extract using centrifugal extractor. If you are using crush-and-strain - you do not need wires. I meant, it is my experience - others could think differently. The first few pictures in #75 are from my nuc, it's 5 "frames" deep. I am using foundationless because I feel that it is more natural and better for my bees. It does not necessary mean that it's easy - foundationless requires little bit more work and probably is not feasible for large-scale production.
 
#93 ·
#92 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Sergey,
I'm confused here on what your goal is here. Is there a disadvantage to a foundationless frame that you are trying to solve with a top bar with sides?
Hi Bay-bees
I am not happy with Lang's design. In particular, I do not like standard frames - too complicated, many small parts, easy to break, difficult to remove from the box especially if propolized, difficult toclean... Top bars to me have obvious advantages - easy to make, simple, one single part. Since a single part - there is not much to propolize. I am using top bars and truncated frames in Lang medium boxes without any problems - most pictures in this thread are from mediums. BUT! One of my beehive do not want to go vertical so we switched to horizontal... In horizontal beehive, we have deep-size frames... well top-bars. The whole hive was designed for top-bars. Now, I "discovered" that deep-size comb is difficult to manipulate without additional support - I am stepping back in my minimalistic top-bar design - I am adding sides to top bars. I think, Bernhard's idea about 1/2 sides are great - I definitely will try and report here. I am reluctant to return back to classical frames for reasons, I explained above.
 
#95 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

>Yes. The bigger the comb, the less the division of brood and honey. The reason why I personally don't like huge combs. I don't see an advantage for the bees but lots of disadvantages dor the beekeeper.

I am slowly abandoning the double deep frames that I made. Two mistakes, too wide a brood chamber, 12 frames, no way to extract the frames, will not fit in any extractor. Too much honey is unobtainable in the brood chamber. I moved six of these frames to double stacked boxes with 9 1/8" frames on the sides. I might try some of them foundationless so that I can crush and strain them. But clearly the very deep frames prevent the honey from being pushed up into the honey supers. Lucky for me, I suffer die off problems so I can re-tool every winter.

 
#98 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

>...I am slowly abandoning the double deep frames that I made. Two mistakes, too wide a brood chamber, 12 frames, no way to extract the frames, will not fit in any extractor. Too much honey is unobtainable in the brood chamber. I moved six of these frames to double stacked boxes with 9 1/8" frames on the sides. I might try some of them foundationless so that I can crush and strain them. But clearly the very deep frames prevent the honey from being pushed up into the honey supers. Lucky for me, I suffer die off problems so I can re-tool every winter.

....
Gorgeous pictures! Many thanks for sharing OdFrank! I guess, the conclusion would be that biggest manageable frames are about deep-size. There is no advantage to make frames bigger. All agree?
 
#97 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Sergey or anyone who would like to answer,
I am going to use standard deep frames in the deeps..taking out the plastic foundation. So if I put popsicle sticks/foundation strips across the top do I have to put them all the way across? Thanks, Halley
 
#99 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

Sergey or anyone who would like to answer,
I am going to use standard deep frames in the deeps..taking out the plastic foundation. So if I put popsicle sticks/foundation strips across the top do I have to put them all the way across? Thanks, Halley
Halley, in my experience it does not matter what kind of guide you provide to the bees. It might be popsicle sticks, or just 90o rotated wedge, or waxed rope or just wax strip. )n the new frames, I personally do the latest - I just filled the groove (from foundation) with melted wax, so it creates sort of "strip". It is not better, but easier to me. If you do the "guide", it should be from side-to-side, but not exactly -mine usually ended 1" from the ends of the frame. When cut comb out of the frame - leave a small strip of comb on top bar to give bees an idea. When started, it is always beneficial to put empty frame between straight comb in the hive. If start fresh - give them at least one frame with straight comb and surround it with foundationless frames - check periodicallyand if necessary correct the direction of the comb.
 
#100 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

>I guess, the conclusion would be that biggest manageable frames are about deep-size.

I use a lot of 11 1/4" frames. After 42 years just starting to test 8 frame hives with all medium supers. In my climate a double deep traps too much honey and has to be cleaned out in early spring, same goes for the 11 1/4" frames.
 
#101 ·
Re: Foundationless and (some) frameless honey in Santa Monica, 2013 season

...I use a lot of 11 1/4" frames. After 42 years just starting to test 8 frame hives with all medium supers. In my climate a double deep traps too much honey and has to be cleaned out in early spring, same goes for the 11 1/4" frames.
So, I guess the strategy would be that frame should be large enough (long) to accommodate most of the nest (brood) but not much honey. My current approach with TBs and 1/2 sided frames (Bernhard) is so, that I could add "extender" between two bodies (or on the top) and bees could extend the comb into new dimension. For instance, to my 9" box, I could add 5 1/2" shallow, which would make 14 1/2" long comb. Or I could build 3" extender for my horizontal hive to have 11" -long comb. In my situation I am using all home-made hardware, which is interchangeable and compatible to Lang - I learned my lesson!
 
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