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Going Treatment Free - step 1

116K views 571 replies 41 participants last post by  jim lyon 
#1 · (Edited)
Full disclosure - I'm not treatment free, but I applaud anyone and everyone who has established a successful treatment free apiary. Seriously I do.

But, I would suspect that everyone who has done it would agree with a few principles:

  • Treatment free does not mean doing nothing and hoping for the best.
  • Treatment free requires at least as much understanding of bee keeping as any other philosophy - so educate yourself.
  • If you start out with a couple of generic packages from Georgia, and don't check and don't prepare for any contingencies you probably will not be successful as a treatment free bee keeper.
  • If you replace your dead outs with generic packages from Georgia every spring you probably won't ever become successful as a treatment free bee keeper.

Maybe I am wrong about some of these - and I welcome constructive input. The reason I am even bringing it up is that I get quite a few contacts via our local bee keepers association from new bee keepers who of course want to be treatment free - of course they want that, who wouldn't? But they don't understand these basic points of the pursuit. That is on them of course, it should be obvious that everyone needs to educate themselves about their chosen path. But for some reason a common take away from the treatment free internet community is that all you have to do is not treat and all your dreams will come true.

I just wish that all of the proponents would make it painfully true that at least at first - treatment free is not easy.

Or am I wrong?

Again - not hacking on the whole treatment free thing. I'll probably give it a go myself one day when I think I have achieved a sufficient state of Zen.

I almost forgot - Step 1 to becoming a treatment free bee keeper - learn to be a bee keeper.
 
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#2 ·
So if you are not treatment free, how did you come to conclude this and the assumptions you have claimed. Curious.
Best quotes I know of about this is,

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."-George Bernard Shaw

"Everything works if you let it" --Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick

I thank Micheal Bush for these.
 
#4 ·
It just seemed that the original post was a bit turned negative toward it, may of just been a wrong perception, no stick poking intended.
my thoughts on it are as follows,
if bees are treated for mites, the chems used would weaken the bees a bit from exposure to the treatments. Then the honey and wax gets contaminated. Then keepers take the honey from them and feed back syrup. This is not their food, it is only leading to malnurishment, lacking natural components of honey. These two things together with mites that survive treatments that are stronger, there is no wonder hives crash. anything malnourished with a strong parasite is doomed. Am I the only one that thinks of/like this. So in essence, are keepers to blame for the deaths of their bees. Is greed the leading cause of bee losses? Please open discussion.
 
#5 ·
Is greed the leading cause of bee losses? Please open discussion.
No actually please don't. Although some beekeepers do have a need to make a paycheck - if you call that greed. But That's not the point.

The point is that somehow new bee keepers are getting the impression that they can buy some bees, throw them in boxes and as long as they don't treat them they will get stronger and stronger until they are going out to find mites to beat up on. And the "bee Keeper" doesn't have to do much of anything except think harmonious thoughts. Is THAT what YOU think?
 
#6 ·
Full disclosure - I'm not treatment free, but I applaud anyone and everyone who has established a successful treatment free apiary. Seriously I do.

But, I would suspect that everyone who has done it would agree with a few principles:

  • Treatment free does not mean doing nothing and hoping for the best.
  • Treatment free requires at least as much understanding of bee keeping as any other philosophy - so educate yourself.
  • If you start out with a couple of generic packages from Georgia, and don't check and don't prepare for any contingencies you probably will not be successful as a treatment free bee keeper.
  • If you replace your dead outs with generic packages from Georgia every spring you probably won't ever become successful as a treatment free bee keeper.

Maybe I am wrong about some of these - and I welcome constructive input.
I think you're right about all of these.

All the successful treatment free beekeepers I know of stress the importance of locally adapted bees. Most of them have various contingency plans to deal with uinexpectedly high losses, such as overwintering replacement nucs.

But for some reason a common take away from the treatment free internet community is that all you have to do is not treat and all your dreams will come true.
This I think you're wrong about. You might hear that from beginners infatuated with the idea of "natural" beekeeping, but not from anyone who has done it and achieved some consistent success.

But what is true is that the only way to start keeping bees treatment free is to stop treating.
 
#7 ·
rhaldrige -

"But for some reason a common take away from the treatment free internet community is that all you have to do is not treat and all your dreams will come true."

This I think you're wrong about. You might hear that from beginners infatuated with the idea of ...

You're right that didn't come out like I meant it - I meant that new bee keepers get that impression from what they read on the internet. I don't even mean that is what is being said by anyone who knows what they are doing - just that maybe it isn't as clear as it could be that treatment free is no more of a magic bullet than anything else. You still have to be a skilful beekeeper. Probably more so.
 
#8 ·
I can't say that my bees are completely, "treatment free". I use Bt to protect empty comb during storage. And I sometimes supplement the syrup I feed young nucs, with Copper gluconate. Otherwise I haven't used anything to "treat" my bees for mites or diseases - ever.

I do believe there is merit in what you've said in your opening post. Knowing what to expect, and what to do in varying circumstances, to help the bees to succeed, can be the most important factor. Especially knowing the minimum input that will have the garner most positive output.

Using absolutely nothing, but perhaps a little physical manipulation, may be quite possible, but would make beekeeping somewhat more challenging than I am comfortable with. For instance, if I did not feed sugar syrup or pollen sub, I would lose quite a few colonies, I know, because I have. And if I didn't use any Bt to protect idle combs, in storage, I may as well throw them away, because they'll be destroyed by wax moth larvae in a few weeks. I know, because I've watched it happen many times. Even Bt protected combs still suffer a little damage.

I just finished cleaning up a 10-frame medium super that was filled with combs being stored. It was a box I forgot to spray with Bt, and though they were PF120 plastic frames that can be reused, despite the damage, there is almost no wax remaining, just a box, where frames and all were completely bound together with wax moth cocoons and webbing. That is the result of them sitting idle during this past Winter. So much for cold inhibiting wax moths.

I dread the prospect of having to deal with SHB - may they never find the desert a comfortable place to live.
 
#17 ·
I can't say that my bees are completely, "treatment free". I use Bt to protect empty comb during storage. And I sometimes supplement the syrup I feed young nucs, with Copper gluconate. Otherwise I haven't used anything to "treat" my bees for mites or diseases - ever.
If you ever want to get away from BT you can do what I've been doing. Line a cardboard box (the one that your PF 125s came in is perfect) with a trash bag, and carefully stack your frames of comb in it as tight as possible. Here in the humid south I put in a bag of silica jel desiccant (some cat litter is 100% silica gel) close up the bag and the box. Put the whole thing in the freezer for a few days. When it comes out It will be completely safe until you open it as long as there isn't a hole in the bag. It sounds like it would tear up your comb, but it doesn't. With the desiccant you can even tolerate a little bit of honey or pollen residue without any mold issues.

This is more work than leaving them in the supers in some ways, but it also frees up your boxes for painting or repair, or just stacking back out on the hive stands.

What is the Copper gluconate for?
 
#9 ·
Joseph, I believe that frames have to be frozen solid for several days to kill all wax moth eggs and larvae. If it becomes a problem for me, I plan to get a used chest freezer, which would be nice to have for other reasons.

As to feeding: have you heard about Tim Ives? He's a treatment free beekeeper in northern Indiana who doesn't feed. He has very low winter losses, and his hives are really big. There's a video of him unwrapping a hive in March, and the bees are already boiling over. Here's one from April:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXESkk7ZhXs
 
#11 ·
As to feeding: have you heard about Tim Ives? He's a treatment free beekeeper in northern Indiana who doesn't feed. He has very low winter losses, and his hives are really big.
That's actually a good example of what I am talking about. I've heard many new bee keepers say something like "I don't feed, because I read somewhere that feeding anything but honey is bad and it will only make them swarm." Well, that idea has a basis in truth I suppose, but the thing is those successful treatment free beekeepers that don't (usually) feed are already skilled beekeepers not novices. And I would assume that they have the ability to tell when not feeding is a good option and when it will only result in malnutrition - or slow growth. I fell for that one in my first season too - I was fortunate that I didn't lose my start. In My Humble opinion not feeding should be a thing to consider after you have a bit of experience under your belt - not when you get your first package. Moderate feeding maybe.
 
#10 ·
good points made by all.

i do think that it is 'alluring' for beginners want to go all 'natural'.

i also think that most are overwhelmed by so much to absorb when first starting out that it's 'convenient' to disregard learning about diseases, pests, and treatment options.

i think you are right david, that it's more challenging for a newbie to pull it off, especially if there is not someone successful at it who is willing to guide them step by step.

common denominators of successful tf beekeeping seem to be:

1. honey only diet
2. resistant stock, locally adapted if possible
3. capability of propagating these genetics and making increase to offset losses

that's a tall order for a hobbiest in their first year especially if ordering packages from out of (any) state and putting them on new equipment.

and there is the consideration that some locations are better than others regarding natural forage, clean water, drone availability, ect.
 
#12 ·
common denominators of successful tf beekeeping seem to be:

1. honey only diet
2. resistant stock, locally adapted if possible
3. capability of propagating these genetics and making increase to offset losses
I'm going to add one - very judicious honey harvesting. I'm under the impression that a lot of TF guys either leave a very large amt of honey or don't really treat it as a product at all.
 
#13 ·
I've heard many new bee keepers say something like "I don't feed, because I read somewhere that feeding anything but honey is bad and it will only make them swarm."
I've heard this too and it makes me crazy. Consider: it's early spring and you put a package in a new hive with all new foundation or no foundation and then you don't feed them. What are they supposed to use to build comb and feed themselves in that totally empty hive?!?

I'm all for not feeding WHEN they have comb and WHEN they have stores. But early spring often means spotty pollen and little to no nectar. What are they supposed to feed themselves with--air? They are all likely to be dead in 6 weeks, so what are they supposed to raise brood in and feed it with in those few short weeks they have to get this hive started if you give them nothing to start WITH?!?

To me "not feeding" means that you don't steal all the honey from an established hive. You leave them stores and preferably more stores than you think they'll need. And pollen! Lots and lots of it. And you do this INSTEAD of stealing it all and giving them sugar water to live on all winter. But first you have to have an ESTABLISHED hive!!!

Ditto with treatments. Poisoning them is not healthful. I do, however, find nothing wrong with trapping beetles or spraying Bt on stored combs. Nor do I expect some poor Italian package bees to be able to fend for themselves after spending generations being treated. You don't treat them and they WILL die. That's why USDA helped develop the resistant strains. No, they are not a bee-all, end-all solution, but they are certainly helpful in the battle.

So, to me, it's a lot of little strategies all carefully orchestrated throughout the season. It's also experimenting to find even better solutions. It is NOT about "doing nothing" or being "all natural". Which is why I don't label myself as to what I am or what philosophy I follow. I just try to do whatever the bees show me they need.

As always, JMO!


Rusty
 
#18 ·
I won't. Since I don't intend to treat for varroa, I can't see the point. If I lose a hive due to mites, I'll be able to tell, no doubt. If I do, I'll have comb for next year, and the nucs I plan to make in the next couple of weeks will, I hope, provide replacement bees.

Here's something I found interesting. In the week after installed the local nuc, I found 2 bees with DWV crawling around in front of the hive. Once the hive began to build up, I saw no more of these bees. Other folks had assured me that this is a precursor to disaster, and I was quite worried. But the hive is booming; I can't see how it could be doing any better. Out of curiosity, I've been looking at some of the dead bees hauled out of the hive under a little handheld microscope, and haven't seen any mites yet, though I'm sure they're present.
 
#21 ·
There are a lot of misconceptions that beginning beekeepers pick up. Some of them involve treatment free or "natural" methods...most do not.

For years, our state association president would tell everyone, "if you don't use fumidill, your bees will die". ...that isn't true.

Many (if not most) new beekeepers with enough instruction/reading to identify a queen cell think they should destroy them...which often leaves new beekeepers with a hopelessly queenless hive after the swarm leaves.

...this is just a couple of examples from beekeeping....let's not forget the number of self aware humans that think they are going to get rich buying scratch tickets.

If you think someone is giving bad advice, it would be helpful to be specific about the advice given and who is giving it....complaining that some (generally inexperienced) beekeepers and wanaabeeks want to believe that everything is easy, want to put bees in a box and pull jars of honey out isn't very productive.

Such attitudes aren't surprising, they are similar to the attitudes of people in other areas...how many buy an electric guitar and never learn to play it? How many buy seedlings that die before they fruit/flower? How many books are on shelves unread?

Is it advice you are concerned about? If so, you should be able to cite the bad advice...specifically.

If you are concerned that people want things to be easy...well, good luck with that. People always want an easy way out.

But for some reason a common take away from the treatment free internet community is that all you have to do is not treat and all your dreams will come true.
I don't think the "treatment free internet community" has much to do with it. Some people just want things to be easy.

deknow
 
#22 ·
Let me tell you what caused me to start this thread.

I got a call from a member of my local association today. This person started last year with a nuc of carnis - which came from an unknown source more or less. So after the hive swarmed a day or two ago, they did their first inspection of the season (a good month late I think) and found that it contained many swarm cells. They called me to ask if they should cut them all down or not. In the course of the conversation they mentioned some dead bees and aborted brood that they had noticed on the landing board, and I asked off hand if they had treated for varroa, or checked for mites at any point. No - they are going treatment free. With one hive. And no inspections. The backup plan is to buy more bees. And they thought this was just a dandy course of action. Because they read on the internet that if you don't treat then your bees will be healthy and you won't need to treat. This person is not stupid by the way.

This is not the first conversation like this that I have had. Not even close. People ask me for advice about bee keeping all the time because I am active in our club. I don't EVER tell people that they should not go treatment free. I tell them that there is more to it than that and they MUST educate themselves and learn to be skillful beekeepers to keep their bees alive.

Laziness for not making the effort to learn is on them.

All I am saying is that if you want new bee keepers to be successful and treatment free it needs to be clearly, unavoidably, painfully clear that there is more to it than that. That is on the people who promote treatment free bee keeping. Otherwise, what is the point?
 
#25 ·
I asked off hand if they had treated for varroa, or checked for mites at any point. No - they are going treatment free. With one hive. And no inspections. The backup plan is to buy more bees. And they thought this was just a dandy course of action. Because they read on the internet that if you don't treat then your bees will be healthy and you won't need to treat. This person is not stupid by the way.
Maybe not, but that's pretty lazy or arrogant. There are many sources of information on treatment free beekeeping, from Michael Bush's encyclopedic work to Dean and Ramona's book, and a multitude of web sites, as well as forums like this. I think a failure to do any research before trying a new endeavor is completely on the person who didn't try to find out what to do.

Personally, I can't think of any instance in which an experienced beekeeper here recommended treatment free beekeeping and gave the impression that nothing need be done to succeed.

Do you know of any examples of that happening?
 
#31 ·
Conventional beekeeping doesn't involve losing hives? :scratch:
I'm assuming your new tagline will be "real beekeepers don't lose hives"?

Speaking for myself...I'm _not_ an evangelist....and I take full responsibility for everything I say.

But make sure it isn't hidden in the fine print on the second page.
How about pointing out where you think its hidden in the fine print on the second page? You are asking for a problem to be fixed without providing a single example of where that problem exists.

deknow
 
#32 ·
Fine DeKnow - if you don't see that anything is broken, then there is no need to acknowledge that anything should be fixed. And you are probably right - people just really need to invest a little more effort to begin with. I have no problem with that. If you tattooed it on their foreheads some people would still ignore it.

And of course all bee keepers lose hives. And my last tagline was deleted because it was "too political for Beesource" Sorry Barry. I guess it really was.

No problems. Carry on as usual.
 
#46 ·
Fine DeKnow - if you don't see that anything is broken, then there is no need to acknowledge that anything should be fixed.
That seems a bit unfair. I don't know Dean, but I've read his book, and I've seen videos of him speaking, and he hangs out here more than most, trying to set folks with unrealistic expectations straight. He and his wife host a treatment free conference every year, which seems to be making a difference.

It seems to me that the present conventional beekeeping system is more than a little broken. He's doing a lot more to fix it than many folks. I don't always agree with him, but at least he always argues from a factual basis, and I respect that.
 
#34 ·
i took david's original post to mean that 'step 1' is aquiring solid general beekeeping skills.

i would wager that the greateast risk to a first year beekeeper's bees is the beekeeper.

i agree that sustaining an apiary off treatments is doable, but it is more the end result of aquiring the skill and knowledge required to do so rather than the making of a proclamation.

nothing wrong with rh's approach of 'if they die i'll just get more', but i wonder if a typical beginner is willing to risk their time, money, and emotional capital that way.

without expert mentoring, i think the odds are against the beginner. having a back up plan in place to salvage a collapsing colony makes sense to me. you can always introduce new genetics and make other changes as you refine your skills. even mike bush suggested that one may have to use an organic acid while regressing to small cell.

hey it's been awhile since we gave this a good thrashing. my hope is that it will give any first year beeks who might be reading this some food for thought.

good thread david, political? :)
 
#38 ·
:eek:t:No it was from an unknown source - nice swarm though. Checked on them today, and they seem good, although I didn't spot the queen, but I was trying to be non-invasive. Just getting them squared away. Pretty sure they are queenright by the way they act.
 
#47 ·
RHaldridge wrote:

It seems to me that the present conventional beekeeping system is more than a little broken.

But is it? They do alot of things I do not, but where do most of the replacement bees come from? When the average commercial beekeeper is buying his replacement bees from a TF beekeeper, I will concede this point.


Crazy Roland
 
#53 ·
Maybe you're right, but if there's nothing wrong with the way conventional beekeeping is done by many beekeepers, why do they complain so much about their losses? Why is the number of colonies, and the number of commercial beekeepers declining? Why is the average age of beekeepers so, well, mature? (I'm older'n dirt myself, so please don't take that as an insult, fellow elderly beekeepers.) It seems to be a tough time for folks who are trying to make a living from bees. Isn't it a problem that some elements of the conventional approach to dealing with disease and parasites are not working as well as beekeepers would like?

It might well be that the replacement bees produced in large quantities for both commercial and hobby beekeepers are part of the problem, not evidence that the system is working well.
 
#49 ·
I am left wondering what a "conventional beekeeping system" actually consists of. Sounds kind of like an assumption that those who don't follow the Beesource treatment free definition are all doing things in a like manner. But if that is the case then why do some seem to have much better results than others, shouldn't those following this system all be losing their bees? Hmmmm.
 
#55 ·
I am left wondering what a "conventional beekeeping system" actually consists of. Sounds kind of like an assumption that those who don't follow the Beesource treatment free definition are all doing things in a like manner.
I didn't mean to imply that, just as I'm sure David didn't mean to imply that most treatment free enthusiasts are completely clueless. Though maybe they are; I don't know.

I guess what I was referring to is the idea that it's possible to poison our way out of our present difficulties. I'm deeply dubious about that proposition. I could be wrong, but I think the evidence is on my side. As an analogy: consider antibiotics. We've managed to evolve organisms that are resistant to just about every antibiotic in the inventory, and all we can do is hope for new drugs that the organisms haven't yet acquired resistance to. But when those new drugs appear, it will be only a matter of time until they become less and less useful. This has a familiar sound to it, doesn't it?

Now with people, we can't take the Bond approach and let the weaklings die. I'd be dead myself if not for antibiotics. But bees aren't people, they're bugs with a high reproductive rate, we do not become attached to them as individuals, and the superorganism that is the colony is much too alien a being for us to have the same emotional attachment to it as we do to other people. Just as with other livestock, we can select for traits we find desirable. If you believe B. Weaver, their bees are fairly resistant to varroa. To me, that approach makes a lot more sense than the insecticide de jour.

To extend the analogy I tried to make above, it's much more effective, cost-wise and quality-of-life-wise, to try to keep people healthy enough that they only rarely need antibiotics. From what I've read here, this is the approach you take with your bees, only resorting to acaricides when you deem it necessary. To me, that's much more admirable than what I learned in beginner bee classes, which took the view that all hives must be treated for everything, whether they have a problem or not... lest they develop a problem, One of the demos consisted of sprinkling drifts of Terramycin around the demo hive, and we were told that this was a necessary prophylaxis, to be done regularly..

The beekeepers I admire the most, and hope to emulate in some small way are those who take the view that if we can make our hives strong enough and healthy enough, we can avoid many of the problems that currently afflict bees. They try to do this through a combination of genetics and management practices, and there are enough cases where it seems to be working to demonstrate that this can indeed be achieved. To me, that's a more promising longterm strategy.
 
#50 · (Edited by Moderator)
In a past time the wax moth was the varroa mite wiping out hives. Honeybees adapted and now wax moths are a thing of the past. I started out treatment free 8 years ago. Was it tougher yes. Was it worth is yes. My expenses are lower, my wax better. My genetics localized, successful and deep.

I am keeping my bees up to par with the times.

I believe that is why apples and roses need so much spraying. As the diseases and pests continue to "naturally" evolve the plants are grafted and remain outdated.

Our honeybees are the same we have kept them out of date and are paying the price when we go off the crutch of chemicals.

Africanized bees are a great example of an awesome selection of nature. nature selects the best, we needs to only let the best be selected as well.

I believe the future of successful chemical free beekeeping (or beekeeping period) must be realized thru the local industry.

small cell makes sense. it's natural. better yet go foundationless and save money.

keeping 10 frames in a ten frame box keeps true cell depth and is natural. helping keep tracheal mites at bay.

What kills new beekeepers namely is the waste of money packages that are commercially sold. With queens so poor a great beekeeper could not coax them to a crop. (if the bees don't supersede her right away) Then after that I would say a lack of successful beekeepers T.F. and old fashion ones are to blame as well.

As in everything in life there are those who can't and those who can.
 
#51 ·
Since I started in 2007, I never once treated my bees for anything. Helps when you start with stock that isn't treated for mites either (Bee Weaver). Haven't lost a single hive to pestilence. And I don't do small cell either. And I don't do drone frames or anything like that.
 
#52 ·
But aren't these last 2 posts a classic example of what I just said 4 posts back? The typical scenario - I never treated, I never lost any hives, success success.....

The reality that the average TF beekeeper loses 4 out of 10 hives each year is not to be found by reading the treatment free forum on Beesource. As the OP has been saying.
 
#54 ·
rh,
Most of the commercial beekeepers I know replace their losses by buying or producing their own queens and splitting their live colonies. Some folks will buy truck loads of other beekeepers hives. I imagine their are some who buy packages, but I don't know what percentage of package bees go to commercial use. I'm under the impression that most of the packages go to non-commercial beekeepers.
 
#57 ·
I think you're right. It's probably another reason among many why hobbyists often don't do as well as experienced commercial beekeepers, whether they treat or not. Their bees aren't very good.

I tried to avoid that pitfall. I bought a local nuc from a guy nearby for one hive, and a package of Wolf Creek small cell, semi-untreated bees for the other.

I still expect them to die. I hope to be able to replace them from splits I make.
 
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