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Ordered a Breeder Q today

18K views 65 replies 19 participants last post by  Michael Palmer 
#1 · (Edited)
After hearing John Harbo talk about the VSH trait, I decided that it was worth the $145 (includes shipping). I decided to get the Carni / VSH. Decided to have her shipped first week in May. By then I am thinking that the Queens should be pretty good. And that will be soon enough for me to start grafting. :)

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/catalog.html#anchor2391365
 
#34 ·
>I think that this information may be slightly out of date because I was recently told that Glenn has completely incorperated the VSH genes into both their cordovan and their carni lines.<

I realize that. Suki told me that, too. Their Carni line has VSH in it. But, when I asked how I could enhanse the VSH trait, she said to have the VSH come from the queen side. TJ in Maine said the same thing. So, this year I bought a VSHxCarni breeder. Also, bought a VSHxVSH breeder. My plan is to put some of those daughters in each yard...for drone stock. When my bees supercede, or swarm, there will be VSH drones out there to mate with.
 
#36 ·
>
I realize that. Suki told me that, too. Their Carni line has VSH in it. But, when I asked how I could enhanse the VSH trait, she said to have the VSH come from the queen side. TJ in Maine said the same thing. So, this year I bought a VSHxCarni breeder. Also, bought a VSHxVSH breeder. My plan is to put some of those daughters in each yard...for drone stock. When my bees supercede, or swarm, there will be VSH drones out there to mate with.
My goal is to improve upon what I view as several faults to the Russians, while still maintaining there longevity and mite resistance. Of course its much easier for me to increase VSH in my apiary because I have so few hives. Next year, 90% of my queens will be F1s, home raised from one of 6 breeder out of glenn, and likely mated to russian drones.
 
#35 ·
get it from the horses mouth

I emailed themm with my questions and here is the reply.

Dear Brad,

You ask some good questions. Some of the traits we are dealing with, specifcally hygienic behavior, is recessive so it is actually easier to weed out the bees that don't carry it. A behavioral test of their ability to uncap and remove killed brood is used to sort the bees out.
Another trait VSH or varroa specific hygiene is thought to be neither dominant or recessive. Since there are more than on gene is probably involved, the more of these genes present, the more the trait will be expressed. Once again the only way to sort them out is through looking at the results of their behavior.
The trait for tracheal mite resistance is thought to be controlled by an unknown number of dominant genes. And your right, in this case it is not possible to tell if the bees contain only one copy or two copies, they will both behave the same. Maybe sometime in the not too distant future, we'll be able to read the DNA directly. This would be much more efficient, and avoid the long process of testing the behavior. It's possible now to analyze the DNA from wingtip clippings. It would be nice to know exactly which drones to mate with which queen before insemination. We look forward to that day.

As far as our queens are concerned, we use breeding stock in which these beneficial traits are fixed in the population. They are purely mated, so they will carry the desired traits. The queens we sell for $100 are the equivilent of a pure bred puppy, too young to have proved themselves, but starting with the best genes.

Hope this answers some of your questions,

Tom Glenn

As far as the multi-gene vsh trait claim goes it is yet unproven. Basically what they are claiming is that the trait is like blue eyes. If both parents have blue eyes the children are likely to have light colored eyes; most likely blue, but its not a gaurentee.

I am not convinced that they know what they are breeding, but I am not buying any queens either:)
 
#38 ·
I use as breeders the VSH x Carnie, VSH x Minn. Hyg, and VSH x VSH from Tom & Suki.
The VSH X VSH seems to be replaced after 2-3 months, while the others will last +/- 1 year. I am not sure why the dbl cross VSH is so short lived, unless the amount of inbreeding necessary to create VSH also reduces phermone generation and is doubled in the VSH x VSH. (speculation)
I replace them each year and the VSH X VSH twice a year. Seems to work out best for me.
My personal favorite is the VSH X Minn. Hyg., but they all work well.
I have not used the Russians, yet. I might try that this year.
Which are your favorites?
Frank
 
#40 ·
>Which are your favorites?<

I like the VSHxCarni. Large colonies at Dandelion, and good honey producers. But...one thing. Some daughters are rather defensive, and fly in your face. I can handle that, as all my yards are located away from people. I wonder about backyard beekeepers. Anybody else see this?

I was told this spring by several beekeepers who bought my queens in 2006, that the Glenn VSHxCarnis xx my drones were their best bees. None complained about temper.

I'm thinking about starting some Russians this summer. Had some in 1999...among the worst bees I ever had. I guess the breeders have improved the bee.
 
#49 ·
>Is basswood as good as they say it is?<

Mmmm. Very good! Better than Sourwood! :)

Basswood is a white honey, with a distinctive minty flavor. Makes awsome comb honey. Flow not always dependable. I've heard something about getting a flow every 7 years. Haven't seen that. We surely make Basswood more than once every seven years.

This year wasn't a Basswood year. Didn't even taste any in burr comb. Maybe in another year, I'll have some, and we can exchange.
 
#54 ·
>What's your rough colony yield figure for your breeders (VSHxCarni)?<

They usually make the average, or close to it the first year from nuc. Second year the good ones make much more.

This year wasn't a great flow. I've been wrapping, and just from looking at the info I wrote on the backs, looks like this years nucs (made in July of '06) averaged near 100, with some totals of 80 to 120.

The colonies that were nucs a year or two ago, made up near 150. They make big colonies, which is what you need here to make honey.
 
#55 ·
What they really need is a Quantitative Trait Loci (QTL) database website set up so that ARS and other reliable researchers can tell us more about gene-trait-environment relationships. Researchers in Tennessee and Maine have setup such databases for the mouse, and it is now possible for honeybees because we have a sequenced genome. This will advance the work of breeders greatly.
 
#57 ·
A deep super stuffed full is about 95 pounds of honey. A shallow super similarly stuffed is about 45 pounds. A medium runs in the range of 65 pounds. You can quibble about these weights a bit, some would say they are a bit high.

you can't just measure honey production, You must also measure how much honey had to be left for the bees to overwinter. It is common to leave 100 to 120 pounds for overwintering in the north and 45 to 65 pounds here in the south.

DarJones
 
#58 ·
The 150 is in pounds.

I've weighed many supers of all sizes, when full, and after extracting. Deeps weigh about 80 pounds when full, and 20 after extracting. That works out to 60 pounds. Mediums have about 40 pounds of honey, while shallows have about 30. These weights are in supers where the combs are well puffed out with honey.

My bees are along the Canadian border in NY and VT. I leave about 80-90 pounds on for winter. On the backs of the hive, I record the honey produced, and the weight of the hive when I weigh...for each year. Quite interesting to follow a colony's records over the years. At a glance, you can see total production and sugar fed for each year.

A former inspector was helping me wrap last week, and we were comparing colonies. I was showing him the wisdom of NOT requeening every year. Some colonies produced big crops every year, some missed one year...when they requeened themselves...but produced big crops in the following years. Some produced big crops, but needed considerable amount of feed. Of course, some produced small crops a couple years in a row...these were either requeened, or split up into nucs for wintering. If I requeened by the calendar...ie annually or semiannually...I wouldn't be able to identify those colonies that go on from year to year producing big crops and requeening themselves when they need to.

Then there were those colonies that produced a big crop, and were way overweight. For instance...I remember one that produced 190 lbs this year, and weighed 220. Since my target weight is 160, that colony's production was 250. I don't figure the honey they need for winter into the production records...only what they make over that amount, or under that amount.
 
#59 ·
I agree with you on not requeening every year. I have a specific line of queens that came off of an outstanding queen from last year. There is no comparison to the production of the hives with these queens (the best of which produced near 30 gallons this year) to the queens I have got through the mail. The carniolans, I have also found do not lay carniolans. They lay italians. The commercial queens are therefore carniolan in genetic makeup, but mate with regular italian drones. Their offspring are not carniolan and do not seem to possess the advantages of Carniolans.
 
#60 ·
I agree with you on not requeening every year. I have a specific line of queens that came off of an outstanding queen from last year. There is no comparison to the production of the hives with these queens (the best of which produced near 30 gallons this year) to the queens I have got through the mail.
Now, allow those colonies to go another two years, and see the results. After 2 years, you'll really see the cream rise to the top.
 
#61 ·
This will be the "matriarch" queens 3rd year coming up in the spring. She is not even slacking off brood rearing too much right now. I was fortunate to get this queen from a beekeeper here in Tennessee who is against medicating and his bees actually thrive. He is an excellent manager of his hives. His style is reflected in the natural health of all his colonies.
 
#63 ·
Aspera, if you requeen every colony once a year, how will you ever develop a strain that will be healthy and productive in your area? Almost any beekeeper who doesn't practice requeening by the calendar, can tell you of a colony that went on and on and on, year after year. Always among the best producers, and the best winterers. Those are the colonies we should be breeding from. Annual requeening would kill all these breeders before they could be discovered.

So, what colonies do get requeened. Colonies with chalkbrood do. Hopefully with a hygienic strain. Colonies with poor patterns do, and colonies that winter poorly too.

If you keep a yard sheet on your bees, you begin to notice patterns. You see that colonies perform similarly from year to year. So, you have a colony that comes through the winter so, so. I like to see at least 9 frames of brood at dandelion. This one has 4. But the pattern is good...we'll give her a chance. You come back to re-super the yard a few weeks later. Most colonies have a hundred pounds on, but the questionable one has only a super and a half. So yoe decide to re-queen it. You break the hive open to start the procedure, and find hatched queen cells. OK, the bees did the job for you. Cool! So....

Next season, the colony has 4 frames of brood at dandelion. But, it's a new queen last summer. Give her a chance, right? I bet she has 4 frames of brood next year, too.

Some colonies are easy to read, when they need re-queening. Some are more difficult. It's the ones like my little example that you should focus on.

What I'm trying to say is, keep good records. That's how you'll know which colonies to requeen.

By the way...any colony in my operation that isn't performing well by dandelion, gets nuked with an overwintered nuc. That gets the first round of requeening done early. Later in the summer, any colonies not performing get broken up into 4 frame nucs. What's left on each stand...old queen and field bees in a medium or two...get requeened with the last round of queens. These are overwintered as nucs.
 
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