Here is the Question. Say I wanted to start a colony from say a package in April in Nuc box 5 frame and say if everything worked out right in say 4 weeks give or take, Put an second 5 frame box on it. Then in say few weeks when it was full, pull the second box off and put queen in it. Then I should have two good nucs now right. Then let the two new boxes fill a second set of boxes. Wouldn't I not have 4 nucs with the addition of a couple of queens in the two new boxes. then let the 4 5 frame boxes grow into 2-3 5 frame boxes for the winter. If you understand what I am trying to say. thanks
Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits
I suggest letting them build up into strong colonies the first year and splitting the second.
The year before last I had only one survive winter, my first with significant losses. It went bonkers and in May I found a half dozen queen cells. I split them into two single deeps with the queen cells and had three strong hives going into winter. Early last April I did a "walk away split" per Michael Bush and later the prior split threw the biggest swarm I've caught to bring me back to five colonies at no cost, if you don't count the two lethargic packages I bought in an effort to replace losses that died despite my best efforts.
These five hives along with three others given away, those losses and a few failed colonies including TBH experiments originated from my first package eight or so years ago. As a small scale keeper, if I really tried, I'd have more colonies than time if I managed for increases through walk away splits. I prefer my splits with mutt queens who are acclimated to our location over packages.
BTW, by Michael's bee math, a walk away split raises a queen in the same time as any other method with very little effort.
Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits
Yes, if everything goes perfect. It may not be as simple as pulling off a box and putting a queen in it. You will need to split the stores and brood as evenly as possible. Also, you'll have to keep a close eye on them. I've found that the hives I start in 5 frame boxes seem to build up quickly and swarm. Seems like a good experiment.
Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits
If you are looking to build numbers that quickly, I would suggest buying 5 frame nucs from the start. It seems that you want to run 5 frame boxes, which is OK, but not the normal course. If you want to get to your 4 nucs from 1 by end of summer, olan on buying mated queens for your new splits and plan on feeding a lot of sugar syrup. Also plan on things not going exactly how you plan.
My reccomendation would be to let the hive build up the first year, and split the following spring. I would also suggest that you begin with more than 1 hive.
Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits
Well truth is I will be starting with three packages. One started the traditional way in a 10 frame deep hive and that will be my "Honey" hive. The second hive will be started in a 10 frame but will be the support hive for the Honey hive donating frames of brood to the to it to build up the "numbers" as quickly as possible. I will keep it in a single deep form spring through early summer keeping population down by the donating the frames of brood to the honey hive. then let build up to a second box for stores for it to winter. Then the third package will be split as much as possible within reason of course. stopping by mid July/august so all the splits can catch-up and make the most of the fall flow of nectar. I realize I will be going through a lot of sugar syrup this next year. At least that is the game plan. Other wise if I start in the traditional way I will have three hives with no honey. And this would be an interesting project
Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits
An awful lot of anal retentive here to go with the genital. Your idea was plainly stated, to me at least. You could indeed expand your numbers just like you described. There are devils in the details though. Getting queens for those splits, when you need them can be a problem. The second splitting would find queens readil available and cheap though. Bees do very well building up in five frame nuc boxes because they can better keep the brood nest warm. Do yourself a favor and do not use a screened bottom board as it makes that climate control harder for small clusters in a nuc. Good luck.
Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits
You are right Vance G the details are a devil, I have a queen breeder couple hour drive from me, and was kind of hopping there might be a queen cell or two show up in some of the hives. the I would be transfer as needed. I would not do any splits unless there was queens. thanks for the input
Here is the Question. Say I wanted to start a colony from say a package in April in Nuc box 5 frame and say if everything worked out right in say 4 weeks give or take, Put an second 5 frame box on it. Then in say few weeks when it was full, pull the second box off and put queen in it. Then I should have two good nucs now right. Then let the two new boxes fill a second set of boxes. Wouldn't I not have 4 nucs with the addition of a couple of queens in the two new boxes. then let the 4 5 frame boxes grow into 2-3 5 frame boxes for the winter. If you understand what I am trying to say. thanks
Sure, that should work, if you have the know how and the flows come and come well. It is good to set goals high. Be prepared to fall back to fewer when they don't fill out as you hoped.
If you overwinter your nucs successfully in two story five frame nucs you should be able to split some of those nucs come Spring, May, maybe April, into three nucs each, by buying cells or queens.
I can tell you this. I had one hive go from 5 fraems to 20 in four weeks. The next did not draw out 10 full frames all summer. So don't be surprised when you find the bees work according to their math.
Early in the spring they will draw comb like mad. Later in the summer the only bees I could get to draw comb was my strong double deep colony. So they made comb for two nucs I had put together late in the season. I am probably goign to have to start feeding those nucs soon. I don't think they have enough honey to get through the winter. So far so good though.
So if you get the timing right I can see your idea working. you will have to manage the details though.
I am with Dan on this one. First year started with a couple nucs and was given a third hive, drawing the foundation was the challenge. They seemed to want to fill up the lower box and not move up. They swarmed on me before drawing the pierce plastic (before I learned to paint wax on it). I had one go queenless and tried giving them brood from the other hive until it was too weak and did not make its own queen. The third box I gave to the in laws on the other side of town. All he did was report it swarmed after filling both boxes and filling the top of the telescoping hive with honey. 3 hives, 3 different results. Next year I had drawn comb. I put some in swarm traps (got 2) did a split and started 4 nucs. Its all about the drawn comb (IMHO). SQWRK, did I spell nuc correctly? I got red lines all through this docoument.
I do not know if it will make a difference but i am going to be using wax foundation for every thing. Also I am waiting for the second box to fill up if it doesn't then no harm no foul. it is not like i am taking a double deep 10 frame and splitting it up into 10 separate 5 frame nucs and hoping they take-off before winter hits like some do.
There is no harm no foul anyway. If you split too soon and slow the bees down, one can always recombine. Heavily feeding and supplying high quality pollen sub to suppliment what the bees gather will grow a lot of bees too. They are your bees and if you aren't depriving wife or children, do whatever you want. Just keep the equipment small to match the cluster and expand as the population does. Follower boards of Aluminum clad styrofoam work well and you can easily expand or contract the area the bees have to heat.
To encourage the bees to draw comb in the second nuc box just move a frame of brood up from the lower box once it is full. Bees hate to have undrawn comb next to brood and will move up and proceed to work the foundation next to it. That is what I would do.
Along with all the other caveats that have been mentioned, is this plan reliant upon a location having a fall flow? Recombining any weak nucs to prep for overwintering?
Yes it is, My intention is to make the splits and hope the fall flow is enough, But the backup plan is to combine the weak nucs if needed and winter the rest taking all necessary precautions I.E. fondant/candy boards ventilation etc
Interesting. I was wondering if adequate feeding would be a sufficient substitute in absence of a fall flow. Looks like the answer is yes, although, I'm sure there are 100 caveats to that too.
We won't have the hives or space to do this first year, but I'd be interested to see how your plan works out and maybe try to pull it off next year.
Plans are nice, but the bees seldom do what you expect when you expect it. They may take off faster than you think, or slower. You may be able to do more splits or none. I'd play it by ear.
The truth is I got the inspiration from Mel Disselkoen and his site and Video I seen on YouTube. On how he did his splits in spring summer. I figure if all else fails I can recombine as necessary and go from there. Even if I can get same number I started with or one two extra hives to take-off by next spring I think would call it a success / lucky.
if it works for you thats the way to do it.you could do the same thing later and not have it work. hhhhhmmmm!
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