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Africanized Bees - Are they really that bad?

70K views 203 replies 61 participants last post by  Michael Bush 
#1 ·
Has anyone had any actual experience with them?
I know that the media will basically prey on people's fears at times so I'm sure that Africanized Bees are overexaggerated in some ways.

I've always had an intense phobia basically regarding these bees :eek:

I adore bees and have always been fascinated by them. They have an extremely important role in our environment which is why I really wish to learn more about Africanized Bees and to understand them more which will hopefully lessen my fear of them.
 
#30 ·
Here is the official usda map:


http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htmdocid=11059&page=6

If you look at Florida, and then look at the north easternmost county, that is me. Orange county Florida is right on the edge.

That color says 2005, and this is 2009, so I think this is the main year of infestation, because I caught 5 swarms in my own yard in empty supers just waiting to go back onto the hives. These things are aggressive, but also prolific.

I am requeening as quickly as possible as I believe they are africanized.
 
#33 ·
mr smith says:
There is also the school of thought that behavior is infinitely malleable, and has nothing to do with genetics.

tecumseh:
humm this idea would seem to conflict with the work of one of my wife's early mentors (who won the nobel for his work). I do however suspect you are somewhat confused in regards to your prior comments in regards to genetics vs race. from what we know NOW... certain genetic predispostion MAY BE somewhat to highly malleable and other (behavioral characteristic) almost set in stone (typically associated with basic survival instincts). this variation (which by the way exist in almost all things you can measure) still require a somewhat to highly artifical SCALE composed by man. the advance of KNOWLEDGE tends to modify this scale in an almost constant fashion.

based upon what I have read in the old literature... the first africanized hive was found in California and a post morteum of the hive suggested it had shifted back to european bees quite quickly. steve taber wrote that he had distributed africanized semen across the us of about 20 years prior to this discovery. mr taber also suggest that the dispostion of the africanized hybrid varied highly based upon location (altitude, temperature and humidity being the variable considered).

here the indirect question of this thread is handled quite simply... you take a sample to the Texas bee lab and have them tell you what you have. as far as my own testing here on the edge of this problem... prior years fairly extensive sampling suggest that the time of year in which queens are reared and large numbers of commercial yards near by do make a significant difference in the outcome of a queens mating.

thanks ya' gene weitzel for you comments concerning morphological characteristics. I say this because it does seem some small cell folks seem to maintain some fear that their efforts will be confused with maintaining africanized stock. I will also tag unto your comments that these morpohological characteristics have NO relationship to the defensive/aggressive behavior of honeybee. that is... morphological characteristics to do predetermined aggressive behavior.
 
#34 · (Edited)
.......... I will also tag unto your comments that these morpohological characteristics have NO relationship to the defensive/aggressive behavior of honeybee. that is... morphological characteristics to do predetermined aggressive behavior.
Not sure I understand what you were trying to say here. My comment was intended to suggest that a hot hive that displays other common AHB behaviors (like excessive swarming, nervousness and hypersensitivity to vibrations) along with sharing similar morphological characteristics of Apis Scutellata would cast enough suspicion on the hive to warrant intervention by the beekeeper but would still not necessarily be definitive without the added certainty of DNA analysis. I would think that most responsible beekeepers would probably intervene anyway since those behaviors are not desirable rendering a morphological analysis moot. I would also go on record and state that IMO morphological studies of bees that display the behaviors that we value as beekeepers would be a waste of time if one were trying to determine the risk that AHB behavior could surface in subsequent generations. DNA analysis, IMO is the only way to definitively identify such risk.
 
#35 ·
Here is another map:

http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm

In Oregon, many of us like to go out into the woods, by walking, horseback, or 4 wheeling. The prospect of AHB in the woods and an unsuspecting or unknowing public is not a pleasant one. The adjustments required by beekeepers and finding locations of apiaries which are remote, accessible, and yet providing good forage will make beekeeping more difficult. I am hoping that Southern Oregon is north of their northern limit of infestation, but time will tell.

Larry
 
#36 · (Edited by Moderator)
From what I have read, feral AHB colonies do much better in temperate areas that more closely approximate the climate in the savannas where they originated and then of course the more tropical areas like FL. This may be why feral bees in west Texas, parts of central Texas, NM, AZ and southern CA seem to have a higher degree of AHB characteristics than other areas across the South. My area in east Texas has a pretty good presence, but the latest studies I have seen indicate that it is in the 25 - 30% range and has not changed much in recent years. They don't seem to compete as well with the EHB in the areas near me with sizable commercial beekeeping influence. They are able to establish themselves in the more wilderness type areas where EHB preferred cavities are more scarce and resources would not support EHB's very well (AHB are not nearly as selective and are quite satisfied with smaller cavities and even ones that are below ground level, they are also more mobile and will "chase" resources as needed). In resource rich areas that suit them, they can build up into enormous colonies. In the resource scarce areas, they easily adapt by maintaining a small more mobile colony, absconding as needed to find new resources. I don't know if your wilderness areas would fit the bill for them to be successful at establishing a viable feral population, my suspicion would be that it may not, but as you say, time will tell.
 
#39 ·
my smip via gene weitzel:
morphological characteristics to do predetermined aggressive behavior.

the to do should have been 'do not'. or prehaps more precisely stated.. the correlation between morphological characteristics and defensive/aggressive doesn't present much informtion. I would agree (at least I think we are agreeing here???) that a list of behavior characteristics tells you much more than morphological consideration

mr dingler writes:
Ross, I sense you are protecting a TX queen selller? I am not intending ton bash southern queen producers as there are many good beekeepers in the south. I'm just speaking from 50 plus years of experience and knowledge and have no axe to grind.

tecumseh:
well you do seem to bring up this 'selling point' at every opportunity and with little evidence to support your claim. It does seem like you have a ax to grind give how often you bring up this issue.

bug continues with:
It does not take a Phd to figure out that if south of the border is 100% nasty girls that eventually the same fate will be seen in southern USA. My claim of the north being the repository for EHB genetics is also supported by University Researchers who feel more beekeepers up here should be raising their own queens. In fact a rssearcher who shall remain nameless in her well known queen rearing, course materials in the introduction, gives a short overview of why raise queens in the north and the short answer provided is to keep the AHB genes out!

tecumseh:
you are projecting a trend here without any evidence to support the claim... perhaps a phd would have alerted you to the mental error (but then again perhaps not). matter of fact gene weitzel presented a bit of evidence to suggest you claim has no bases in reality. if you can believe what steve taber wrote it would suggest that africanized blood lines have existed even in northern states for quite some time.

marla spivak certainly does have an iron in the fire here and would likely list a whole array of reasons (not one over compelling reason) for folks to take her course and produce queens 'locally'. I support her efforts entirely.

a numero uno mr smith snip:
The notion that man somehow creates (or socially constructs) races by the process of describing them is nonsense. Man no more creates races by describing them than he creates species by describing them, or genera.

tecumseh:
then one could expect some bioliogical entity like nosema to have been in the same designation since the invention of the species/sub species classification.

your NOTION is extremely old school and most folks who think about such stuff would find the content of your writing quaint and also highly misleading.

you contant falling back on the boogy man of political correctness speaks volumes... which is absolute NOISE on the informational level.

a numero twoooo mr smith snip:
If man were to vanish from the earth tomorrow, the various races of bees could still exist. African bees would still have all of their same characteristics, and be quite different than European bees.

tecumseh:
so the knife (defined and built by man) that defines where a species might find itself would still exist? since current dna genetic information suggest pretty conclusively that the european bee originated from africa... your last sentence (given sufficient time) is absolutely incorrect.

numero threeo snip via mr smith:
With the advance or (in the case of political correctness) retreat of knowledge, our descriptions of this reality may change, but those descriptions don't affect the underlying reality itself.

tecumseh:
there ya' go again... tossing out that political correctness boogey man without presenting anything to support your quaint notion.

reality is what it is but it is seen through very much human eyes and process via a grey matter computer with bias(s) already built in. a casual review of what Einstein wrote would suggest to almost everyone that it ain't always the same.
 
#40 ·
a numero uno mr smith snip:
The notion that man somehow creates (or socially constructs) races by the process of describing them is nonsense. Man no more creates races by describing them than he creates species by describing them, or genera.

tecumseh:
then one could expect some bioliogical entity like nosema to have been in the same designation since the invention of the species/sub species classification.
You are again conflating the name for the thing with the thing itself.

your NOTION is extremely old school and most folks who think about such stuff would find the content of your writing quaint and also highly misleading.
So asserting the existence of a reality that is independent of what people think of it is something you want to derisively characterize as "quaint" and "highly misleading"? Are you serious? :lpf: If that's the case, then I'll plead guilty. Yes, I DO believe reality exists apart from our ideas about it. Pretty wacky, huh?

you contant falling back on the boogy man of political correctness speaks volumes... which is absolute NOISE on the informational level.
You object to the term political correctness? LOL. I can think of a lot of other terms for those people who attempt to shut down debate on these questions by means of personal attacks, but none of them are so polite. This reminds me of the line in the Woody Allen movie "Annie Hall":

Woody: I'm very anal.
Annie Hall: Anal is the polite word for what you are!

Actually though, political is exactly the right word, since it's apparent that those reality-deniers who claim that races are socially constructed do so for political, not scientific, reasons. They are frightened by the implications of the idea that human races exist, differing in outward form, temperament, aptitudes, and abilities, much like European and African bees do.

a numero twoooo mr smith snip:
If man were to vanish from the earth tomorrow, the various races of bees could still exist. African bees would still have all of their same characteristics, and be quite different than European bees.

tecumseh:
so the knife (defined and built by man) that defines where a species might find itself would still exist? since current dna genetic information suggest pretty conclusively that the european bee originated from africa... your last sentence (given sufficient time) is absolutely incorrect.
The evolutionary origin of the European bee is not germane. The point is that the two races of bees are different NOW. Further, they would continue to be different NOW, regardless of the perceptions or even the existence of man.

numero threeo snip via mr smith:
With the advance or (in the case of political correctness) retreat of knowledge, our descriptions of this reality may change, but those descriptions don't affect the underlying reality itself.

tecumseh:
there ya' go again... tossing out that political correctness boogey man without presenting anything to support your quaint notion.

reality is what it is but it is seen through very much human eyes and process via a grey matter computer with bias(s) already built in.
"Reality is that which remains after you stop believing in it."

a casual review of what Einstein wrote would suggest to almost everyone that it ain't always the same.
Exactly. Reality and our beliefs about it are two different things. Glad you've finally come 'round.
 
#41 ·
mr smith writes:
You are again conflating the name for the thing with the thing itself.

tecumseh:
lauguage and mental constructs are symbolic... either only loosely represents physical reality. any number of variable (at least two defined by einstein) might vary how we perceive and define physical reality.

are you suggesting that man thinking is not symbolic?

then mr smith continues with:
So asserting the existence of a reality that is independent of what people think of it is something you want to derisively characterize as "quaint" and "highly misleading"? Are you serious? If that's the case, then I'll plead guilty. Yes, I DO believe reality exists apart from our ideas about it. Pretty wacky, huh?

tecumseh:
why yes it is... such thinking would have been quite mainstream 100 years ago but will get you no gold stars given what we know today. betrand russell (a history of western philisophy) attacts the question quite directly and pretty much lines out who is currently 'winning' in regards to this basic question (which has been around at least as long as the ancient greeks).

then mr smith writes:
You object to the term political correctness? LOL. I can think of a lot of other terms for those people who attempt to shut down debate on these questions by means of personal attacks, but none of them are so polite. This reminds me of the line in the Woody Allen movie "Annie Hall":

tecumseh:
proving a point by presenting some line from a movie (fictional I would guess???) does not give much weight to your argument. given the movie is likely (haven't seen it, so I am guessing here) a comody and fiction (by definition somewhat to highly removed from reality) suggest you are guilty of exactly the kind of thinking (actually the lack thereof) of what you are accusing others.

tecumseh:
Actually though, political is exactly the right word, since it's apparent that those reality-deniers who claim that races are socially constructed do so for political, not scientific, reasons. They are frightened by the implications of the idea that human races exist, differing in outward form, temperament, aptitudes, and abilities, much like European and African bees do.

tecumseh:
perhaps you might first want to establish some definition for the term politcally correct with which we could all agree??? if not??? then you are only intermixing the thinking of science with current strategies of political spin to obtain some political advantage.

once again your constant 'attempt' to falling back on the vague term of political correctness speaks volumes about your thinking (well actually the lack thereof).

then mr smith adds:
The evolutionary origin of the European bee is not germane. The point is that the two races of bees are different NOW. Further, they would continue to be different NOW, regardless of the perceptions or even the existence of man.

tecumseh:
I gave you a simple 'real world' example which you have decided to reject. quite obviously if man didn't exist we wouldn't be having this conversation and the 'differences' (if they exist) would not matter one whit.

it is quite evident (at least to me) that you are highly confuse into believing that mental model (constructs) are reality or politcal spin (which is my own personal view of what 'politically correct' actually represents) might in someway alter these constructs. that is.... by altering the rhetoric you might in someway alter how folks think (which is by itself quite a viable idea).

then mr smith writes:
"Reality is that which remains after you stop believing in it."

tecumseh:
another meaningless and unidentified quote. your argument grows constantly weaker.
 
#42 ·
I thought we were discussing if africanized bees were really aggressive or not. If people just wants to fight, why dont they start a new forum with the heading " Join for a fight using complicated words ".

i think more people are reading this thread to know about the experience of others about africanized bees, not someones fight.
 
#43 ·
Yeah, they mostly impress themselves. Some, somehow thinks it's educational. More often than not, it's just a thread stopper for everyone else and they move on to better subjects and conversations.

Carry on.................
 
#44 ·
Here's another map that indcates the spread:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6

Also, one problem with this and similar maps is that if they don't test for AHB in an area then the map does not show any AHB. For example, they quit keeping records in Texas by the time they moved to North Texas. They did not jump across North Texas to Oklahoma.

For anybody who is really interested in this topic or who lives where AHB may invade in the near future, I recommend reading Africanized Honeybees in the Americas by Dewey Caron.

I don't want to get into a debate about race or epistimology, but I would add that in bees aggression is 100% genetic. Of course given environmental effects can make a hive calmer or rowdier. However, the underlying behavior is gentically programmed. You can't send them to anger management classes, after all.

At least as of the late 1970s some dude did his PhD dissertation by doing behavior studies and regression analysis on bee agression and genetics. He concluded that there are probably a total of eight genes that affect aggressiveness in bees. The good news is that for most of those genes the aggressioin gene is recessive. I recently did a post in the bee breeding section asking if there was more current info on this, and nobody really had much new to say.

The bad news, as far as AHB is concerned is that:

1. Aggession genes are much more common in AHB.

2. Where AHB really are more suited to the environment, they tend to take over and eliminate the EHB altogether. From Brazil up to Mexico, there was very little hybridization between AHB and EHB. The AHB took over completely. However, EHB did poorly in that area and they did not even swarm, so AHB had huge advantage. Of course, that is why they imported African bees into Brazil in the first place. Going south into Argentina, the climate is more temperate/European, and there was a place with some mixing of races and hybridization. That then tapered out to an area where there are all EHB. This will happen in N. America, and the best guess is that Kansas/Nebraska will be the dividing line between AHB/EHB (according to info. in a talk by Dewey Caron in March of this year).

3. A given hive can be hot when the queen has mated with only some AHB drones. The AHB sperm can create a percentage of workers that, due to aggressiveness, get the whole hive into attack mode (or at least more worked up than a EHB hive would be).

That's all I've got,

Neil
 
#45 ·
josethayil:
i think more people are reading this thread to know about the experience of others about africanized bees, not someones fight.

tecumseh:
I am sorry to have interrupted the entertainment value of this thread. I am saddened that somefolks here quite often times confuse correcting someone's poorly reseached term paper with some fight or conflict.
 
#46 ·
I have a small apiary going in Teresopolis Brazil. About 12 colonies. All bees in Brazil are AHB and there is alot of fiction being spun here. Hitting your veil so hard that venom comes out, swarming on you for 100 yards, inspect the brood and all He.. breaks loose, etc. I can tell you the basic K. Delaplane entry on AHB in First Lessons in Beekeeping is very accurate. No bs. Honey production and quality is superb and completely chemical free, which is the big selling point for Brazilian honey right now. The biggest source of truly organic honey on earth. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9097662 Note the lack of gloves.
 
#47 ·
Ross, I sense you are protecting a TX queen selller? I am not intending ton bash southern queen producers as there are many good beekeepers in the south. I'm just speaking from 50 plus years of experience and knowledge and have no axe to grind.
Actually I'm not protecting anyone. I don't buy or sell queens, but I do raise my own. I am surrounded by counties deemed AHB, but have seen no tendency toward aggressive hives in 10+ years of raising my own queens. Most of east Texas and across the deep south has not seen any appreciable AHB influence. The southwest, including west Texas, NM, AZ, CA have. Not a lot of queen breeders in the desert southwest compared to the southeast. Painting them all with the same brush is irresponsible bashing, and self serving it seems. If you have facts, trot them out. Otherwise it's just idle bashing.
 
#49 ·
I live in an area that is supposed to be taken over by AHB. I don't see anything as hot as some bees that I got from Alabama long before AHB came here or there. The hottest bees I've ever seen were the german black bees and there are tons of them here in feral hives.

The fact is that swarms of bees are not chasing people through the woods or fields or down the streets. We are all just fine and our bees are fine too. I have a few hot hives but nothing beyond the pale. I can keep bees and it will not be AHB that may end my run as a beekeeper but a bad back.

Quit the worrying and fighting. They are not that bad and people are sensationalizing AHB for some sort of gain.

I'll step down from my soap box now.
 
#51 · (Edited)
One thing I don't understand is the contention that since there is AHB south of the Border then the whole south will be infested, and Lordy mercy, we will be dependent on the north to raise queens for distribution. Well I ask you this, If the whole south becomes infested with AHB, what would prevent the whole middle portion of the USA from being infested, and then eventually the whole Northern portion, and then Canada.

Let's use some facts to support this contention. It is interesting to me to note that Counties North and West and yes, even East have supposedly been Africanized, but yet notice Anderson and adjacent Cherokee County are not. Now speaking from the voice of experience (as I have extensively logged in these Texas Counties) these areas are smack dab in the middle of the East Texas Pinewoods, large area of relatively rural with low populations and vast forests.

Seems to me before drawing the lines there needs to be some facts to support where that line will stop lest the North Pole will be over-run with AHB.

Seems like to me that that demarkation line (at least what was proposed during the 80s when I kept bees), was about San Antonio Austin area in Texas; although they would spread further North during the warm months only to be killed out during the winter, as supposedly the AHB don't cluster during the winter.

Also, another thing which was observed during that period of time was that these bees did not build up sufficient winter stores for survival as they were to prolific with swarming. Has this genetice feature changed?
 
#52 · (Edited)
Let's use some facts to support this contention. It is interesting to me to note that Counties North and West and yes, even East have supposedly been Africanized, but yet notice Anderson and adjacent Cherokee County are not.
If I am not mistaken they have stopped following the spread of AHB in Texas and now consider the entire state over-run with AHB. That accounts for the big gap between the Red River counties and Oklahoma. Just because your county doesn't show the progress of AHB doesn't mean that there aren't AHB in your county.

I think that some folks out there have an opportunity to bash southern queen breeders and promote their northern queens. Others might bash southern package producers and promote their own. Yet others might do everything in their power to get the AHB made illegal so that they can make a fortune removing them. I guess I don't blame them, they're just trying to make buck. I blame those who continue to sensationalize this issue and cannot see they're being played or duped.

The Bottom Line: AHB are not that bad. Life goes on. Don't let those who want to make a buck get you worried.
 
#55 ·
Paul Jackson the Texas state bee inspector gave a very interesting talk at a convention I attended. The spread of Africanized bees occurs along the major highways where the bees hitch a ride on trucks. (Not necessarily bee trucks). It is not the migration of the colonies that spreads them rather it is mans activities.
Plus jillions of them get shipped out for almond pollination with out restrictions. This is how they spread, but don't seem to be established outside the climatic boundaries of the sub tropics.
 
#56 ·
The spread of Africanized bees occurs along the major highways where the bees hitch a ride on trucks. (Not necessarily bee trucks). It is not the migration of the colonies that spreads them rather it is mans activities.
Plus jillions of them get shipped out for almond pollination with out restrictions. This is how they spread, but don't seem to be established outside the climatic boundaries of the sub tropics.
Exactly. I read somewhere that Florida's Ahb came on a ship. True or not, I don't know. Before I began beekeeping this year, I set out lids of honey up to two miles around my location. No bees worked this. If we are over run with Ahb where were they at. I am located in the central part of East Texas, surrounded by forests. The precise type of environment (excluding temperate region) where they would survive.

Will they be more of a problem around south Texas? Most certainly would, drones can fly a long ways.

Let's be logical and realistic about this.

First, I simply can't resolve in my mind how the North can supply the queens and packagages in time to make a crop. Doesn't seem like they have enough time. Do the math. it takes 21 days to raise brood + another 7 days to start foraging. Takes 28 days to raise a queen to laying, and this takes bee resources, go figure. Takes even longer to get sufficient drone population to a breedable state. Unless you are prepared to incubate or provide AI or some other elevated procedures you're outta luck.

Second, the biggest portion of the migratory beekeepers winter in the south, and for very good reason as the winters are harsh in the north.

Third, they go north to make there honey crop as the north has a much shorter growing season. But the good Lord has compensated them for longer days during the summer months. Bees can work longer and gather more honey. During the summer the weather is not as harsh for as long. I have seen over 40 straight days of 100+ temperatures 10+ of those days were 110+, and I am in the central part of East Texas with high humidity.

Fourth, can AHB infect these queens and packages? Yes, and those producers have a responsibility to institute management procedures to be sure that this is kept to a minimum.

Fifth, if a nothern beekeeper (migratory or otherwise), has a colony that appears to be africanized, they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.

Sixth, one of the things that makes commercial beekeeping so successful in this country is the different regions help each other. Go figure, we need each other.
 
#58 ·
Fifth,they have a responsibility to rectify that problem, and not to bring your africanized bees back down south.

======================================================
Besides, you still don't get it, it does not matter what kind of war you want to declare on AHBs in the south. It will be as successful as the war on drugs.

You might as well get used to them and start taking advantage of their positive aspects just like everywhere else in the western hemisphere
JBG seems like you got a laugh out of my last comment, as it was meant to be somewhat as a joke; although not the part concerning our responsibility in dealing with AHB.

I think we are/have been successful on the war against AHB. They are under control in most of the country. Ahb successes will be limited the further away from their demakation line.

I will not get used to them and I will destroy them every chance I get.

The only positive aspect of Ahb that I am interested in is when they freeze to death during winter time.

This is not only propaganda about their dangers. Go to the Agricultural Research Center and read about them here:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=2

Look at the picture where the beekeeper is covered up. This is unacceptable behaviour around people and colonies like this are dangerous and should be destroyed pronto. By first dividing and then requeening.

Also I don't believe the fairy tales about large honey production. I do believe that they are very active foragers, but their tendency to swarm numerous time a year destroys any advantage gained. In closing all I can say is
:pinch::pinch::pinch:
 
#59 · (Edited by Moderator)
So in this war are you willing to introduce even more pesticide into our enviornment toxic to all bees to destroy them? You really want to encourage that hysteria?
Also, I don't need to read any articles from the USDA or look at any other sources about AHBs. If you follow this thread you will see that I am keeping them in Brazil and my information comes first hand from working with them in the field. http://www.flickr.com/photos/27817825@N07/2705585596/
 
#65 ·
Sorry JBG, but I don't need to use pesticide to kill AHB, I split and requeened the colony I had whose nature appeared to be AHB, but soap and water will work fine, but you are right If need be raid wasp and hornet spray will do wonders, or just a cup of gasoline.

You might also read Thomas' post #62, also from personal experience, and is more in tuned to what the generally accepted experience with these bees than yours. I won't give you my experience as I am sure that since ARS research group must be liars, then surely you would accept my personal experiences either.

I will tell you this, based upon my personal experiences, I will not tolerate anything that resembles AHB. Also, regardless of what the law states, I have to much love for my fellow man to subject them to the risks of AHB.
 
#62 ·
Africanized Bees in Honduras

For the last 18 years I have been living in Honduras and working with Africanized bees. They can be managed and they can make honey but it is a much different management style that needs to be used. I work with them and actually enjoy it (most of the time). I am also now in my third year of working seasonally for some commercial beekeepers in Wisconsin (2000+ hives). This has given me a pretty good idea of how beekeeping is generally done on a larger scale in the States and what’s involved with it. I also have a dozen of my own hives in Wisconsin with my brother—doing this more as a hobbyist than commercially (it’s something to mess around with on the weekends).

So……here are some of my thoughts on how beekeeping in the States would change if there were just hives like the Africanized ones I deal with in Honduras.

Beginning with the initial question on this thread, Africanized bees can be bad. It seems like everybody in Honduras has a story about where a horse or chickens were stung to death or somebody got stung up pretty bad. Newspaper stories about stinging incidents are still common even though people have been dealing with Africanized bees in Honduras since about 1985. But there is always a reason that somebody or something gets attacked. It’s the horse that rubs up against the hive or the children who are playing too close to the feral colony. You leave them alone and they will generally leave you alone.

Someone mentioned Africanized bees coming at you from 200 yards away. I only see this happening if they are already really riled up for some reason (beekeeper is in there working them or something like ants are messing with them). And then it usually would only be a few buzzing around your head at that distant. I usually walk right into my apiaries and put on my suit there, maybe 20 yards away from the hives. I will even walk around the hives checking entrance activity without putting up my veil (but it’s tied on and ready to raise over my head if needed, as well as having the smoker on hand and lit). But once I start to really mess with them I make sure I’m completely suited up and pouring the smoke on them.

Africanized bees can be managed. They can make a decent amount of honey. Disease problems are not real common--but swarming is. Sometimes they can be pretty docile while at other times they get down right ornery.

I’m not real sure how “Africanized” the bees will become in the southern part of the States. Considering the size of the beekeeping industry here I think having all those hives of European bees will help to buffer many feral hives from becoming truly “Africanized”. I think many of those feral hives would be more of a “hybrid cross” and thus a bit calmer. Managed hives can be easily requeened if necessary. That type of beekeeping infrastructure was not present in Honduras (and still isn’t present) and I believe helped all colonies there to become “Africanized” much faster. Something resembling a European honeybee no longer exists there. Everything resembles more of an “African” bee.

Full-blown africanized honeybees (such as I deal with in Honduras) I believe would be a problem for the commercial beekeepers in the U.S. if they wish to continue running their apiaries as they do now. Hobbiests and sideliners, however, may have less of a problem considering how they work with their hives and go about this activity.

We are now in the middle of pulling honey in Wisconsin. The name of the game for the commercial beekeeper here is to get into the yard, pull off the full supers, load them on the truck and get to the next yard as fast as you can (time is money). It would be a really ugly situation if all those hives we are banging around to get the honey off would be Africanized.

I can’t do that when working my Africanized hives in Honduras. I like (and need) to go nice and slow in order to try and keep them somewhat calm—much as a hobbiest would do in the States. If I don’t use some care I will have a bunch of angry bees stinging my gloves and bouncing off my veil. I don’t usually worry about myself when they get riled up but you never know who or what might wander by to check out what’s going on. It’s that odd person or horse or cow that will be in trouble.

My small hives are pretty calm. Nucs and new swarms aren’t too much of a problem to work with. Just an extra shirt, gloves and a veil are usually sufficient to work with them. But to make honey you want big hives; the same for pollination. Big Africanized hives get defensive and ornery. That means you need a full suit with an extra long sleeved shirt underneath it to avoid all those half stings (not fun in hot weather). Pants legs should be taped down. I use insulated leather winter gloves for working my hives in Honduras (my wife sews the sleeve on them). I would get too many half-stings through the leather bee gloves I use here in Wisconsin. I get enough of them now just working with European bees (especially on a drizzly day like we had today).

Pulling honey from Africanized hives during a flow isn’t too bad (as long as you don’t bang around on the hive too much). During the dearth my bees can be very robby and ornery. I can imagine that pulling the last of the supers off in the fall from Africanized hives in Wisconsin wouldn’t be much fun. It would be even worse on a dreary or drizzly or cool day. Commercial operators can’t always wait for the perfect sunny warm day to work the hives.

I’m not sure that four-way pallets would work that well either. If one of the hives starts to get riled up I’m pretty sure the other three are going to join in also. Keeping Africanized hives further apart (as in on individual bottom boards) with smaller numbers in the yard is better. Forty-eight hives on four-way pallets close to each other isn’t the ideal situation for Africanized bees.

For the migratory beekeepers, you don’t really want leaky boxes (keep those bees inside). You want to make sure you have decent equipment in good shape. You would probably want to close up all the entrances before you start to move them. I wouldn’t load a semi with my Africanized hives while the entrances are open. That would probably also mean using a ventilated top with them—something many commercial beeks don’t bother with in the States. (This means extra equipment, extra investment).

As far as hobbyists, you would not want to have my bees within city limits or too close to the house. Urban beekeeping would probably have to disappear. It would be very difficult, and dangerous, to “manage” one of my hives in town. They will probably stay fairly calm along as you don’t really mess with them. But you may never know what will cause it to go bonkers (neighbor’s dog or a child’s ball or a lawn mower). It is a potential disaster waiting to happen. Again, you usually want a nice, big, strong hive which means they get much more defensive.

Beekeeping is a lucrative endeavor in Honduras. When looking at the overall economic situation there, you can make decent money (within the Honduran economy) off of relatively few hives. Honey is actually a luxury item. It fetches a very good price. And considering what I have to put up with to produce that honey (ornery Africanized bees), I don’t feel bad about having to charge a high price for it—even though some people cannot afford it.

It makes me wonder what U.S. beekeepers would want and need to charge in the States for having to deal with the same situation to produce honey. I think costs would definitely go up for the U.S. beekeeper and thus for the consumer. For example, Africanized bees are more labor intensive in my opinion. Consider that in Honduras I usually have one person basically just manning the smoker, always ready when I say I need another puff of smoke on the bees. And, as I indicated, it is much slower to do what needs to be done with the bees. I see the commercial guy getting much less done in a day than what he does now. So that would probably mean they would have to manage less hives or hire extra help—less earnings or more expenses.

Just some thoughts.

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Tom
 
#69 ·
Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras

Africanized bees can be managed. They can make a decent amount of honey. Disease problems are not real common--but swarming is. Sometimes they can be pretty docile while at other times they get down right ornery.
Tom
Tom, I also want to thank you for your very candid and informative post. Can you also share with us what would be considered a decent amount of honey from the average AHB colony. Thanks
 
#64 · (Edited by Moderator)
Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras

Thanks for the very thoughtful post. In my case the previous owner of the Brazil farm I am at tried hobby beekeeping but allowed his horse to get too close to the hives rubbing against them. The bees killed his horse and he abandoned the hobby and all his equip as this was very traumatic for him. My WI bee guru tells me that it is not particularly hard for any disturbed bee colony to kill a horse as they start to hyperventilate and having large mouth and nostrils inhale many bees and then it's over for them. Anyway beekeeping in AHB countries is a much more serious affair as far as the time and resource dedication typical of commercial guys but requires the care and
gentler handling more typical of the hobby keeper.
 
#66 ·
Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras

My WI bee guru tells me that it is not particularly hard for any disturbed bee colony to kill a horse as they start to hyperventilate and having large mouth and nostrils inhale many bees and then it's over for them.
Well I have 3 horses, 2 registered qtr. horses and a Tenn. Walker. 2 are dark bays, and one a red. My yard is next to their pasture and when I work my bees they always come over to investigate and on several occasions have been stung and run off. None have died, but then again there certainly weren't sufficient numbers for them to inhale, but alas I dealt with the colony that showed AHB attitude, and gave them an attitude adjustment.
 
#70 ·
Re: Africanized Bees in Honduras

Well I am telling you for a fact that AHBs can easily kill your horses as you will also read from other posts in this thread and you would be wise to keep them away from any colony that is showing agression. Troll alert!!!
JBG, you are talking to the choir here. I agree AHB colonies are to dangerous to livestock and people to keep such bees here and I don't believe the American people will tolerate their aggresive nature, I know that I won't. There is no doubt that the colony that I had that seemed, to me at least, to have been africanized could kill a horse. My point was that our european stock generally does not react in such a manner as to be this risky, but thanks for your concern. I used proper management to deal with my problem :pinch: and requeen, and now I don't have a problem.
 
#68 ·
if you will notice by name it it called an african HYBRID.
Right!.
I have read and seen geographical maps of Africa that stated the locations of seven, 7, honeybee species.
Back in the late 60's and early 70's beekeepers coine a new term called disappearing. They would get packages, dump them out, fill the inside feeders and check them later to find out that the bees were gone!
Now, I am talking about 2nd and 3rd generation beekeepers. The location of the bees were in Canada.
Here is what the researchers found out out about the problem:
The African stock is phototropic and will fly even when there is snow on the ground.
European bees are thermotropic and will fly when the temperature is about 55 degrees F.
Try and locate some ABJ publications of that era and you will find a lot of information.
We got reports of seasoned beekeepers being driven back into their truck for safety and later they counted hundes of stingers in the black gasket that seals in the windshield.
That's all for now,
Ernie
 
#73 ·
I helped a friend move his hives, and they had Africanized bees in them. Not too bad, until we went to opening the entrances. They literally covered me up. I must have had 10,000 bees on me. Then the chased me for about 200 yards until my buddy pulled up beside me in his truck and I jumped in the back, and he took off, with me brushing them off. When he stopped, I got inside the truck with the A/C. The ones that were left, got off me and went straight to the windows. I was lucky that I only had about 30 hits through the cloths. There were more that didn't really get in me, just itched a little.
 
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