I've found this article just recently, and many facts surprised me.
For example:
"•76 percent of samples bought at groceries had all the pollen removed, These were stores like TOP Food, Safeway, Giant Eagle, QFC, Kroger, Metro Market, Harris Teeter, A&P, Stop & Shop and King Soopers.
•100 percent of the honey sampled from drugstores like Walgreens, Rite-Aid and CVS Pharmacy had no pollen.
•77 percent of the honey sampled from big box stores like Costco, Sam’s Club, Walmart, Target and H-E-B had the pollen filtered out.
•100 percent of the honey packaged in the small individual service portions from Smucker, McDonald’s and KFC had the pollen removed. "
Ah, this seems very different than the initial thesis of the thread, I think. I had read the initial posts as objecting to filtration at a level that would remove pollen grains from honey. This seems to be objecting to a process that prevents crystallization while retaining the "honey" label.
I haven't tried it -- I don't know that I even want to try it -- but I suspect that honey filtered so it is absolutely free of pollen grains will still crystallize eventually. The period of time that it remains liquid may be extended, but I don't know that such filtration will prevent it from crystallizing "forever."
After all, it seems to me that HFCS will also crystallize. Does that make it "honey?" I think not. But I would not use "crystallizes/does not crystallize" as a single criterion to define "honey."
To return to the point, I presume from the thesis statement in post #233 that you believe that heating past some point converts "honey" into something other than "honey." At what point does that occur? What sorts of inclusions are necessary to meet the definition? How can honey be identified? What sorts of characteristics define "honey?"
As far as the ethics of calling honey that has been extracted, heated, filtered and bottled, "honey," rather than terming it something different, I have no difficulty with the term "milk" for a product that has been processed along similar lines or "water" as I suggested above. Any number of other examples are similar, I suspect.
I am very interested in what jurisdiction you will say that Beemaid's product is not honey. Your opinion does not matter. This is a legal mater of definitions, and i anxiously await your proof that Ian's honey has failed to meet any legal requirement for honey anywhere.
But I will post my comments on it AFTER Ian’s reply to my questions about BeeMade’s HONEY processing technology from my previous post.
Ian,
I would like to know HOW your packagers make a final product (temperature, time, filtration).Please do not tell me about standards - just simply describe in details a PROCESS.
OK, from a strict chemical standpoint, I agree. But what do you call that liquid that flows from the faucet?
What criteria does "honey" have to meet to qualify as such to you? Is it possible to have a naturally-produced, bee-collected-and-stored sweet substance entirely from floral sources that does not meet the criteria simply because it's missing something naturally? Seems to me that "honey" varies in constituency from location to location and even between and within seasons. It is subject to fluctuations in temperatures within the hive even (is honey that is frozen less changed by that than honey that exceeds 45C?).
For the love of Pete, it's almost as bad as trying to pin down what qualifies as "organic."
Do you really want to know what is flowing from SOME faucets? Definitely not water! The quality of liquid sometimes is horrible. May be, we could call it chlorine solution? In Chemistry, we use dihydrogen monoxide or simply H2O when in pure form. Liquid from faucet may contain actually some water, H2O. Same with "honey" - liquid in the store may contain some honey...
It is a complex mixture, which contains soluble part (sugars) and insoluble part (pollen etc). Sugars, soluble minerals etc creates a solution in the water; insoluble matter (pollen etc) is suspended in solution. So, when liquid, it is a solution and suspension at the same time. It is not a gel, by the way, how somebody suggested.
The USDA defines honey as "honey", it may or may not contain pollen, DOESN'T matter. Honey may contain pollen but it is not needed. Standard filtering may remove all the pollen. Honey without pollen on store shelfs does not mean it was Ultrafiltered.
Go read the follow up article april 2013, it's basically an apology for the fraudulent article they wrote earlier. Same publisher, food safety news.
Wait. I thought this was "pure" H2O here. Now you're telling me that the "pure" water has carbon dioxide in it?!?!
Of course, I jest. I didn't mean to pick an example that would send us down this rabbit hole when I brought up tap water. What I was trying to get at is that "water" from my tap is different than "water" from your tap is different from "water" in a bottle sold in a convenience store, yet we use the common term and all are recognizable as being roughly the same thing.
The same latitude and flexibility is useful when trying to define "honey." Honey is not an absolutely consistent product. In fact, its variability even from day to day may be part of what makes it what it is.
Go read the follow up article april 2012 [correction Kieck's], it's basically an apology for the fraudulent article they wrote earlier. Same publisher, food safety news. -ryan
Yes. Unfortunately, some of these stories gain immortality from the Internet. The articles that correct or refute seem to be less popular than the initial piece.
Please read carefully before posting. I clearly stated that in the lab we DO NOT store water and use very expensive purification system to have pure water. Your example with water was not good because cleaner water is closer to its pure chemical form, which is opposite to what is happened with honey during "processing"... read, think ... than post
Sergey 's comments about water supports the contention that extracted honey isn't honey. Extracting most assuredly adds air (dissolved and in bubbles) to the honey....along with whatever contaminants are in the air. Honey in a glass jar must also absorb substances from the glass jar.
This thread has become silly,trying to make comparisons of honey to milk, water,ect. and what man has to do to it to make it better? Any beekeeper worth his salt, knows that raw honey straight from the hive is what honey is supposed to be. The more man does to it the less it becomes real honey, so i'm saying to the packers, you can't have your cake and eat it too.:no: I check every frame of honey and brush it off before i extract it, so i don't get the trash in my extractor like the big boys do.I know some people who have worked for some bottlers that told me if a frame of honey comes through the decapping machine with some brood in it,they don't stop and remove it, it goes on through. so yes i can see how it could have legs and antennas in it. Of coarse heating and filtering it will make it alright for the unknowing public to eat.
Sure. Right. I agree to the point that heated, filtered honey is not exactly the same as unfiltered, unheated honey. But to argue that one is "honey" and the other is not is where the pettiness creeps in, if you ask me.
And arguing that one is "better" than the other is arguing personal preferences and opinions.
...and every dairy farmer worth his/her salt knows that milk, raw and warm fro the cow is what milk is supposed to be. Anyone with a pristine well knows that cold, untreated water from the earth is what water is supposed to be. Any gardener worth his /her salt knows that fresh veggies from the garden (never refrigerated) is what veggies are supposed to be.
I like raw honey. I make my living selling raw honey. I spend much of my time teaching others the beauty of raw honey (beekeepers and customers). I suggest those that think only raw honey should be sold as honey invest in raw honey, market it to a large chain retailer, and refuse to accept the chargebacks when the store and customers complain about it crystalizing on the shelf.
If the person paying their hard earned money doesn't want it....perhaps you can force them?
refuse to accept the chargebacks when the store and customers complain about it crystalizing on the shelf.
If the person paying their hard earned money doesn't want it....perhaps you can force them?
My choices were to come pick it up which could mean driving hundreds of miles, or donating it to a food pantry. The chargeback was just deducted from my next invoice with an upcharge for their freight and handling. I was given no choice. You margin could disappear in no time if you shipped out "improperly" processed honey. It was sooooooo frustrating. I made warehouse deliveries to 3 large grocery chains. They all had similar policies
I think it is difficult to argue that honey has any appreciable food value.....now add in some protein (wax moth / shb / brood) and you might be able to make a claim.
Deknow
I was raised on whole milk straight from the cow (my children also), water from a 340 ft. well fresh veg. from the garden and canned veg. from the garden for winter,Honey,and meat from animals we raised, and still do. Our two children are married and doing the same.We are all in good health and active (5 grandkids and all). I credit most from staying away from proccessed food and city water, that is supposed to be safer and better for you.I sell veg. and honey at our local Farmers Market, or i should say i take it to the Farmers Market, it sells itself.I don't find it difficult to say Raw honey has some food value (studies have shown it does) and the health value of Raw honey. Now if you want to eat proccessed honey with less food value and body parts cooked in, you can have my share.
Sounds like you have identified your market, and are filling the demand of that market, brooksbeefarm. Good for you! But why disparage the competition?
I like "raw" honey. I also like "processed" honey. I'll admit that I don't see as much difference between "raw" honey and honey that has been filtered at the 500-micron level (all pollens should go through such a filter) and heated to 110F to help it flow through "processing" as the discussion on this thread would make me believe exists.
I couldn't find a definition of "honey" in your video, Boris. Did I watch the right video? All I saw was a demonstration of an inefficient way to warm crystallized honey.
My video is not about "an inefficient way to warm crystallized honey".
Please read my previous post . I stated: "But I will post my comments on it AFTER Ian’s reply to my questions about BeeMade’s HONEY processing technology from my previous post."
I didn't see anything demonstrating any difference between "raw honey" ("honey?") and "processed honey" ("not honey any longer?") in the video. I did see a hair dryer being used in an open room to blow warm air at two glass jars containing honey. The honey appeared to be crystallized, considering that I saw no change in its form while it was suspended in open jars over plates. That is, I believe that liquid honey would flow out of such containers, and this did not; hence, it appeared "solid," or crystallized to me. I consider using open air to warm honey that way to be a very inefficient way to transfer energy.
Keep in mind that when making videos such as these, what the viewer perceives may be very different than what the producer intends.
Please STOP to misinform forum's members, because I already answer to your question:
"My video is not about "an inefficient way to warm crystallized honey"." (Post # 292)
And I also stated: "But I will post my comments on it AFTER Ian’s reply to my questions about BeeMade’s HONEY processing technology from my previous post."
Are you in rush?
In fact you never confirmed that you have bees.
Could you do it now? Otherwise - this is my last reply to your posts.
Kieck, i don't have to disparage the competition, when i sell raw honey at the Farmers Market, my customers tell me that there is no comparision between the two.With all the call backs of food stuff from the retail stores people are becoming more aware of what they eat and feed there families,and that's a good thing.I'm not big time, i only produce 2000 to 4000 lbs. of honey per year for local sales, but usually sell out before the first of the year.:thumbsup:Had a little better year last year and have 7 quarts left, but it's spoke for.I enjoy selling fresh veg. and honey at the local Farmers Market and answering questions about honey bees. (if i can.
I think that's great, brooksbeefarm. Like I wrote, you identified a market, you've meet the demands of that niche market, and it seems to be working well for both you and the customers. Well done!
So why make statements about "processed honey" being so inferior that it doesn't even qualify as the same thing?
At the risk of going down a different rabbit hole, I witnessed an instance where a few people swore that they could detect differences between the two major brands of colas, blind. The person who put them to the test mixed the two brands equally before putting them into paper cups marked "A" and "B." Those tasting insisted that one was one brand, and the other cup contained the other brand (although they were not consistent from person to person about whether the cups marked "A" contained the same brand). They also all avowed that the liquids in cups "A" and "B" were markedly different, so distinct that it was "easy" to tell the difference.
Sometimes, I think items that we expect to taste differently do simply because we expect it.
Thanks Ramona! Easy enough...but since we are communicating with words, most of the time anyways, and since deknow said :"I spend much of my time teaching others the beauty of raw honey (beekeepers and customers)", I was thinking... maybe we can have a conversation about it.
Certainly handing out tasting sticks of something that soothingly touches and caresses ones tasting buds, is a great strategy, would it be all that it takes to have that "teaching" experience?
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Beesource Beekeeping Forums
1.8M posts
54.7K members
Since 1999
A forum community dedicated to beekeeping, bee owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, honey production, health, behavior, hives, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!