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Wicked lot of moisture.

14K views 50 replies 16 participants last post by  Acebird 
#1 ·
So, I went out to my hives a few minutes ago just to see if they were flying today. On one of my hives I have a medium with a screen on the bottom and it's filled with cedar shavings. I took the outer cover off and a bunch of water ran down the inside of the cover and there is a bit of mold forming under there as well. I stuck my hand in the cedar chips and it is VERY wet. As I dug deeper I could feel a lot of warmth from the bees.

I had some twigs about .25" in each corner of the cedar filled medium to vent it out some - apparently not enough. So I took a couple of pieces of scrap wood an inch thick to prop up the cover even more.

Is that much moisture normal? They are in and out. I didn't see them bringing any pollen, but the maples, etc are blooming. Is this most likely moisture from the nectar or from the bees? It has 2 deeps and lots of bees.
 
#6 ·
I have been using Homasote over inner covers with the notches down... Most of my hives also had a top entrance drilled into the top boxes. With my setup, in my area, I have not had a problem with moisture.

One thing that may be an issue is the use of screen above the bees. Any humidity will condense on the relatively cooler metal instead of migrating out a top vent/entrance, or condensing and freezing safely on the hive walls.

I have heard of some beekeepers changing straw, shredded paper, or other material during the winter. I don't have that problem. I have removed most of the Homasote from my hives, and it is not damp.

I would reconsider the ventilation and overhead insulation that's used.

Joe
 
#7 ·
Joe, thanks for the response.

I understand what you mean with the screen. But with it being so warm in the cedar chips. I'm not sure it would be condensation? I was thinking more along the lines of moisture from the bees or from evaporation of moisture from the nectar?

What do you think?
 
#9 ·
If the cedar shavings are wet, by definition it's condensation unless you have a fountain running in the hive.

You have too thick a layer of shavings, or they are not coarse enough. You do not want to seal the top of the hive, you want to slow the airflow down considerably and buffer the moisture to keep the hive at decent humidity but not wet. I suspect you have all the water vapor from the entire winter in those shavings, which is not a good idea.

An inch or two of shavings will do all that's needed while still being thin enough to allow the water to evaporate off the top.

Also make sure you have plenty of ventilation above the shavings, else you are just putting a condenser on top to drip water down on the shavings!

Peter
 
#10 ·
Ah, ok. I was assuming Joe meant moist heat hitting cold screen causing condensation.

I guess I do have too much cedar chips that medium is pretty full. I'll have to take some out. The cedar actually has been relatively dry after I put twigs under the outer cover. Seems just recently it's gotten really wet. I did recently remove a medium with 10 frames and comb from between the medium with cedar chips and the deeps. Maybe that was giving it some room to evaporate ?
 
#14 ·
That's what I was wondering. I have been in that hive several times this winter, the first time I noticed moisture was, I used a couple of twigs under the telescoping cover and that took care of it. Then like you said, we had that warm spell, and a lot of maples were blooming.

I checked it again today and it's dry as a bone. Those one inch pieces of wood must of had done the trick.

I'm going to have to try another method.

Jeff, do you have an pics you could share of your set-up?
 
#13 ·
John,

I have the same setup that you have but I put slats spaced 3/8 inches apart and then fiberglass door screen on top of them, and then the chips. I drill 10 one inch holes in the sides of the medium box and put no 8 screen on the holes to keep anything out and chips in. I have done this for 2 years and have not had an dampness show up in my chips. I use saw dust out of my shop but I sift it through a screen to get the fine dust out. The way this works is the moisture collects in the chips but needs a way to get out of the box. Once you proped your lid you gave the moisture a way to exit. You need to set this up in a way to let this venting happen all winter long. I do it with the holes in the sides. I do not give them a top entrance with this setup.

I like the slats because this lets them move over the top bars more freely in the winter so bees won't get trapped, or have to move to the bottom or sides of the frames to move with the cluster.

By the way, I then take my box, dump the chips, turn it over and put it on top of the intercover for the summer. It works great for ventalation with the 10 screened holes in the sides. Bees will go up and mill around and I have even seen them in a circle around the center intercover hole faning to draw air.
 
#15 ·
Here is a link to photobucket that has some pictures. I make mine out of 2x6s. I screw them together in a box, then staple the screen on, and then nail the lath in place. I have been putting 3 to 4 inches of chips/sawdust but I may just fill some next year. I like the inch and a half material because it keeps more rain out of the holes.

http://photobucket.com/wintersummertop
 
#16 ·
Yeah, I like those, Jeff. I just put a couple of pieces of wood across to help hold up the screen. All those slats like you did is a better idea. I've been toying with the idea of making a gable cover and putting copper flashing on it. Then I could put some vent holes on that. I really like the way that looks. Similar to a Warre style I guess.

What was going on in the videos? The only time I ever saw anything like that was one day the temperature dropped about 10 degrees in 10 mins and huge dark clouds started rolling in. My bees were flocking home like mad.

BTW, how do you keep your lawn so green? :applause:
 
#17 ·
The answer to your question is yes it is normal and that is the problem I have with this soak up the water method and hope it evaporates fast enough. If it doesn't it freezes on a cold night and can only cause more problems. To many variables for my liking.
You have to have the ventilation anyway so why not just let it go out the hive instead of trapping it and then venting it? What does that buy you or the bees?
 
#18 ·
Acebird, I wasn't expecting it to get so wet. What I thought would happen is that it would wick away moisture to stop it from dripping down on them, and also give them a bit of protection from the cold. It seemed to work until recently when that really warm weather came and they were bringing in lots of water and/ or nectar.

Instill new to this and have lots to learn :)
 
#19 ·
Yeah, everything is dependant on weather. A sponge can only soak up so much water. keep in mind that when insulation or a sponge soaks up water it does not insulate. Insulation should remain dry, bone dry or it doesn't insulate anymore. Before this idea came along people just tipped the hive so the condensing water would run to a wall and run down the hive and out. Far more efficient than trapping it in wood chips and hoping it will evaporate in time as far as I am concerned. But if conditions are right you might swear by it. What you have is conditions are not right.
 
#20 ·
John, The videos were from last August when a local farmer planted 100 acres of buckwheat after his wheat crop in July. The videos were a combination of an orientation flight and heavy flight. It was simply amazing to look out over the field in the morning and see all the bees. You can see the buckwheat in bloom in the background. But like you said, one of the coolest things I have ever seen is when the bees are coming back just before a storm with that first cool breeze ahead of the storm.

Grass always looks best at this time of year. Here in central Ohio I have mowed 4 times and normally don't mow for a week or 2.

Acebird Your quote:"You have to have the ventilation anyway so why not just let it go out the hive instead of trapping it and then venting it? What does that buy you or the bees?"

You sound just like all the old time bee keepers that told me I would have a block of ice with wood chip in it. You don't have to vent in the traditional sense; this is ventilation because air will move through the chips but at a slower rate. It would be like me asking you; WHY would you top vent a hive? To me it is like leaving your front door and window open in your house all winter. I over wintered 26 hives last winter and had 26 hives alive March 1. I have felt and dug down in this sawdust monthly and have never felt any moisture. I have put a temperature monitor in the middle of this box under the chips and at 17 below it was not below freezing in the bottom of the chip box. I am not so sure that the moisture collects on the chips. It may be that the ventilation that moves through the chips just takes it out with the air movement. I think that large chips are not as good as small chips but fine dust needs to be removes or it just keeps falling on the bees every time you do something.
 
#21 ·
Jeff, most moisture conditions are not in the dead of winter. It happens in the fall and spring when the conditions are right. The conditions you have allow your hives to make it through without a problem. Not everyone will have that luxury. What you don't know is would you have had 26 out of 26 make it through this winter if you did not use the chip bed?

In this instance I am going to side with the commercial operators moving thousands of hives all over the country and not using the chip bed method of overwintering. In my line of reasoning it has zero value. You obviously feel completely different otherwise you wouldn't do it. That's OK. Do what you like.

John would like to know why it didn't work for him. I gave my reasoning what is yours?
 
#23 · (Edited)
Jeff, most moisture conditions are not in the dead of winter. It happens in the fall and spring when the conditions are right. The conditions you have allow your hives to make it through without a problem. Not everyone will have that luxury. What you don't know is would you have had 26 out of 26 make it through this winter if you did not use the chip bed?

RESPONSE: Your point about whether my hives made it due to the top is correct. The only reason I made it was to point out that moisture does not collect with this type of top at any time of year, fall, winter, or spring, and I have looked over multiple seasons. And if you don't think hive moisture conditions happen in the dead of winter, you are not correct, bees are giving off moisture at a constant rate in the hive. It is by far a bigger problem in the winter because of frosting on cold surfaces.

Acebird quote:
'In this instance I am going to side with the commercial operators moving thousands of hives all over the country and not using the chip bed method of overwintering. In my line of reasoning it has zero value. You obviously feel completely different otherwise you wouldn't do it. That's OK. Do what you like.'

RESPONSE: You can side with the commercial BHs but they won't do this much work, its a pain and too labor intensive. As small BKs we can afford the time. "In my line of reasoning your opinion has zero value" because it is based on what others are doing. Just because everyone is doing it is not a valid reason to not try something new and look in other directions. I don't know if this is the answer to winter moisture reduction but it seems to keep the hives dry and I will continue to refine and make it better.

Acebird OUOTE:
"John would like to know why it didn't work for him. I gave my reasoning what is yours?
RESPONSE: I have already given my response if you read the tread, you should read treads before responding.
 
#22 ·
As far as I can tell, it's because I didn't have it vented enough. After I propped the outer up more, it was dried up by the next day. But now I'm concerned with there not being enough moisture. I would rather them be able to get water from within the hive if they need it to thin out honey, than to have to go hunting for. Even though there is a pond about 100' from house, which isn't far, getting water from within the hive, is even quicker.
 
#24 · (Edited)
John,
I did the something similar with my bees this winter, except that the material I used was chopped leaves, and I DID NOT make any vent passages of any kind through it "to let moisture escape".
That is very important to avoid getting a lot of condensation on the cover!
The result of what I did was that I had a 3" layer of leaves in the spring, dry on the bottom of the layer and very damp material in the top 1/4". The leaves on the very top had visible moisture.

This is why you had a wet cover, and why the top of my leaves were damp:
Warm air from the hive rises, carrying the moisture in it with it until it reaches something cold (like your top cover, or the cold air above the insulating layer of leaves in my hives).
Then the moisture condenses.
If there is ventilation to the outside where the moisture condenses, the moisture will evaporate into the cold DRY air fairly quickly, suffering moisture damage due to condensation. That’s why our attics are vented above the insulation on top of our home ceilings…to prevent our roof form getting wet like the underside of your covers. Cold air above an insulting layer is no biggie—the warm air is trapped underneath.

Unless you put vent holes through the corners of the insulating layer with sticks.

If you do that, the warm moist air bypasses the insulation, and rises right up to the cold underside of the cover above, and the moisture condenses. Without any ventilation ABOVE the insulting layer, the moisture accumulates. My top cover is propped up on one side with a couple of small 1/8” sticks to allow for that ventilation…but there are NO holes through the insulating layer of leaves to bypass the insulation.

I think if you cover the entire screen next year with a layer of shavings or chopped leaves about half a medium box thick, and allow some space above for the condensation on your cover to get out, you’ll find things much different next winter.
 
#25 ·
That’s why our attics are vented above the insulation on top of our home ceilings…to prevent our roof form getting wet like the underside of your covers.
The vent in your roof is more for the damp warm weather not the bone dry winter. If you do not have a vapor barrier on the warm ceiling to prevent the moisture from going in the insulation you will have serious moisture problems in the insulation even if you have a powered ventilation fan in the roof. Trapping moisture in organic material (leaves, sawdust, or wood chips) and hoping you have enough ventilation to evaporate it is not a good idea in my opinion.

bees are giving off moisture at a constant rate in the hive.
Not even close to correct. The amount of moisture give off is a function of metabolic rate and population. No different than any other animal. (constantly changing)

Commercial beekeepers would use this method if it had a plus side. I am pretty sure of that.
 
#43 ·
Please elaborate on that. Do you have any science or deductive logic to back that up? Is the problem the material or the physics of how that material functions? Thanks
Putting a sheet of foam insulation on top of the outer cover is quick and dirty way to prevent water vapor from condensing on its underside and dripping on the winter cluster of bees. It forms on the walls inside the hive first as it is colder (Acebird explains the science of this above).

Using a quilt box (box with a layer chopped leaves, sawdust, etc completely covering a screen on bottom that holds the material) allows water vapor to migrate through the material, which is warm on the bottom (side toward bees) and cold on the top.

The moisture condenses on the top of the layer, which will get a little damp as the leaves on top absorb it.

If the space above the leaves is vented to the outside, cold dry air will get in above the insulating layer of material, and the moisture on top of the layer will be absorbed by it and carried it outside as that air vents out.

This way it stays much dryer in the hive space. Some moisture might condense on the walls, but a lot less...and a little is good as it gives the bees something to drink (they'll lick the dew off the walls when it is warm enough to break cluster but too cold to fly).

When I open the hive on first inspection in early spring, and put my hand into the layer, I can feel a great difference in temperature btw the top of it and the bottom. The very top might seem soggy, but the bottom is dry.

Hope I've explained this well enough to make the "why it works" clear.
Let me know if you have questions. If it is hard to visualize, I'll post some pics.
 
#44 ·
The moisture condenses on the top of the layer, which will get a little damp as the leaves on top absorb it.
This is where your science is a little flawed. The moisture condenses at the point of dew point which could be the top, middle, or near the bottom depending on conditions. These conditions vary from day to day and more importantly from place to place. So if this method works for you one season it may not work for all seasons or every year and someone in a different zone could have completely different results.
 
#38 ·
:lookout:John, you made me smile and laugh.
Good, I hope some others did also. Debate is healthy, but sometimes it seems to border on personal attack ;)
So no one ended up agreeing on the pint weight? I'll have to go search that one out. Sounds like some interesting read. lol
 
#34 · (Edited)
Here is an interesting article-
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...x6X8Aw&usg=AFQjCNFBkv2ytwi9qEMpjzDJLRmApx-QeA
It involves a warm damp thing (a person), a permeable insulating layer (a sleeping bag), and cold (-30 C or roughly -20 F). If you replace the person with some bees, the sleeping bag with a box of sawdust, and cold with, well cold is just cold. In a stable situation water vapour will diffuse through the insulation until it reaches a layer cold enough to freeze but as long as it remains frozen and undisturbed the insulation retains some of its value.

From here my analysis- If adequate ventilation is provided on the cold side the ice crystals will evaporate slowly. If the cold side is warmed the ice will melt and the insulation may become wet. Without ventilation on the outside it will remain wet (the situation in the original post). With ventilation (as subsequently provided by the original poster) the insulation will dry as the ice melts and the insulation will probably never become saturated.
Bill
 
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