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Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

69K views 180 replies 23 participants last post by  Rader Sidetrack 
#1 · (Edited)
I've been thinking over the last few days that in order to compare the various swarm prevention methods, especially Checkerboarding and Opening the Brood Nest, I think it's worth making a list of the general stages (not considering the age of the hive) and factors in spring buildup that contribute to Reproduction Swarms.

This is what I believe happens as concisely as possible. If I have things out of place or just plain wrong let me know.

  • A couple of inches of capped honey around the outside of the brood nest is seen as the boundary of the colony.
  • Space is created in the brood nest by consumption of honey during winter, aiding in heating, and then during spring build up, generally moving upwards.
  • Due to lower temperatures, clustering continues, especially at night and so nectar is preferred to be stored in the brood nest.
  • Large amounts of pollen are available in early spring and this is stored in the brood nest to raise increasing amounts of brood. This is determined by cluster size.
  • Brood are often raised in batches during spring buildup due to limited space. Brood population can almost double with each batch. As the brood nest expands, gradually all stages of brood are present.
  • Wax making capabilities are very limited in late winter and early spring due to temperatures being too low and limited incoming nectar. So extension of comb is limited.
  • Expanding areas of brood, and storage of nectar and pollen in the brood nest by foragers puts pressure on the available space in the brood nest.
  • During a spring flow, empty cells are quickly filled by the foragers with nectar, before the Queen finds them.
  • Empty cells become less and less very quickly as they are filled with nectar. Quickly reducing the amount of open brood.
  • The Queen starts loosing weight due to laying less and less eggs.
  • With a large amount of young Nurse Bees, any very young brood start getting a lot of attention and large amounts of Royal Jelly is available to get deposited into these cells, making ideal conditions for Queen Cell building.
  • Once the brood nest is backfilled with nectar, and there is a large number of unemployed Nurse Bees, then queen cells are built.
  • Due to little space to store nectar, Nurse Bees are also full of nectar. This aids in preparing for wax production. (It is held on to as long as possible, in preparation for a swarm.)
  • The Nurse Bees are now ready to swarm as soon as weather permits.
  • Scouts start searching for a new hive location.
  • When ready to leave, a signal is sounded and bees (especially Nurse Bees) start flowing out of the hive, chasing the Queen out as they go to get her to leave with them.


Contributing factors to Swarming
So when looking at the stages in spring buildup it seems that the main issues in causing swarm conditions are backfilling of the brood nest with nectar, which then causes there to be large numbers of unoccupied Nurse Bees. Once there is a large number of unoccupied Nurse Bees, opening the brood nest may not be enough to prevent a swarm.

Checkerboarding attempts to get the foragers to store nectar above the brood nest rather than in it, by providing empty comb above the brood nest. Ideally this is done before nectar sources becomes plentiful. It becomes clear that this leaves the brood nest free from congestion and allows for maximum population. All stages of brood continue throughout the spring buildup. Ensuring there is enough open brood to keep large numbers of Nurse Bees occupied. The issue with Checkerboarding for those new to beekeeping is lack of drawn comb.

Opening the Brood Nest does not stop backfilling of the brood nest with nectar. Rather it tries to maintain enough space in the brood nest to allow for backfilling, while maintaining enough space for the queen to lay and to ensure that there is always open brood to keep Nurse Bees occupied. Placing empty frames or foundation in the brood nest encourages wax builders earlier in the season, but wax making uses extra nectar and likely requires higher temperatures in wax making areas, again using more nectar.

Conclusion
So based on that, it seems that deterring foragers from storing nectar in the brood nest in the first place looks like the best way to prevent swarms, produce a higher population and to yield a larger honey crop.


Thanks to Walt Wright and Michael Bush and to everyone else who contributed to the Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest thread with helped in developing this. I certainly learnt much from it.

Hope people find this useful.
Matthew Davey
 
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#110 · (Edited by Moderator)
Ace as for your frame. and your comment "If the frame below also has a semi circle" It is in the if for me. My observations indicate the frame below looks just like this one. An upside down bowl of a semi circle. it is as if the queen and bees treat each frame as a separate brood chamber. the chamber does not continue on uninterrupted but appears to me to have been so interrupted they started over making a whole new brood nest. But every frame of brood I have ever pulled from my hive has that arch of pollen and honey over it. the bees do seem to me to see that strip of wood as the top of the nest. It is in this that I do find some merit to the issues of med frames in a brood nest. I find the same issue is true with a deep frame as well. Just not as many breaks in two deeps as there are in three meds. Is this enough of a problems for me to not use mes fraems for the nest? Right now I am thinking no but am still looking at it. I am thinking it may be a hair that does not need splitting. The underlying issue for me is how long of disruption is it for the queen. if it is only a few minutes. no big deal. if it puts her of laying for a day. well that is another issue. The most productive period I saw in my queen was when she had 15 fraems to hop around on just like this. So if it comes down to no space or broken up space. broken space is preferable. If it is between large space or small space. I am not sure it makes enough of a difference.
 
#120 ·
My observations indicate the frame below looks just like this one. An upside down bowl of a semi circle.
Don't forget I was there and I can tell you that you are wrong. As I said, I don't have a photo of it but I remember what it looked like. The frame under the frame shown in the photo was a completion that made a circle when in the hive. I can't this is exactly what you will see in your back yard but I can say what happened in mine. My experience however short has got me thinking that there is almost no rule in beekeeping that hasn't been broken.
 
#111 ·
To me, a brood pattern which encompasses two frames one above the other indicates the size of the population of bees in the colony. A good sized strong colony has no trouble expanding its brood pattern across bottombars and top bars down into the box below. If bottombars and tops bars were a deterent to a laying queen we would see nothing other than full frames of capped brood.

I do see those too by the way.

What are the determining factos concerning where the queen will lay? Proximity to honey and pollen stores? Which cells have been prepared by the Housecleaners? The size of the area which worker bees can maintain at the proper temperature? What else? I'm sure there are other things I am not thinking of.

Then there are the factors which stimulate the queen to lay, such as a nectar flow and length of sunlight.

How do we best use what can be know to dampen swarming tendencys?
 
#114 ·
What are the determining factos concerning where the queen will lay? Proximity to honey and pollen stores? Which cells have been prepared by the Housecleaners? The size of the area which worker bees can maintain at the proper temperature? What else? I'm sure there are other things I am not thinking of.
Where in the cavity the entrance is.
 
#113 ·
Walt, If the greater issue with the breaks is that the queen is reluctant to move back down once she has gone up. could this be dealt with by reversing brood boxes? Sounds something like what Michael Is describing.

Mainly if a gap causes a problem. does it matter if it is one or two gaps the bees are faced with. a gap is a gap is a gap and the queen will resist moving down over it. Ultimately the answer is a brood nest made of one continuous frame deep enough to hold all of the brood nest.
 
#116 ·
Yes, that's one benefit of reversing. Also gets rid of crystallized honey left over from winter, and rotates up bottom combs.

Ultimately...the question is the bottom line. How does this supposed gap between stories, effect anything? I have colonies in multiple boxes make more than 200 pounds of honey this year, average was 108. Very strong colonies going into winter. Little feeding this year. Nucleus colonies building up in multiple boxes building big clusters, draswing out 6-8 frames of foundation, wintwering beautifully. So, if this supposed gap in any way effects the colony negatively...how?

Facts and figures please.
 
#115 ·
>>Is "before dandelion" when you see the very first dandelion flower? If I waited for dandelion bloom (when most plants are flowering), it would be well into swarm season.

Can you maybe give a time in weeks in relation to the start of swarm season?<<

Yes, before or just at the first dandelion flower...not the flow. I rarely see swarm cells at this point in the season. I do think it's important to have supers on if you're in an area, or a season that has a significant flow from maple/willow as we have here. The tree blooms get the bees going, and the dandelion flow fills the broodnest...sometimes a 50 pound or more flow here. That's when the bees start cells....especially if there aren't supers on yet. They used to tell us not to put our supers on before the dandelion flow ended...strong dark and crystallizes. Well, it's better to have dandelion in the supers than bees in the trees.


>>So to be pedantic, your steps would be something like this?

>>1. Add two medium supers to the winter hive, X weeks before swarm season.

X is difficult to pin down exactly. It would vary with region and year. Perhaps best stated... X= before they need it.

>>2. (X - 2 to 3) weeks before swarm season, reverse the brood boxes so that the top box and bottom brood boxes are reversed.

Right, but that reversal should be timed...in my area...to the dandelion flow.

>>3 a. If queen cells have been started at the time of reversal, remove them and add another medium super of drawn comb if necessary, underneath the previously added supers (directly on top of the brood nest).

Yes, and maybe even one on top if the colony is really strong and gathering nectar well. Doesn't hurt here in my area to seemingly over-super a strong colony. The amount of comb space a colony needs to store nectar is much greater than the comb space they need to store the honey that came from that nectar.

>> b. If no queen cells have been started then add another medium super of drawn comb on the top of the hive if necessary.

Yep

>>c. If the hive has already filled most of the supers, then add a medium super of drawn comb below the previous two supers and another super on the top of them.

Yes, but these are the colonies with which I produce cut comb honey. Place a cut comb super/foundation below the two full supers.

>>d. If sealed queen cells are found, remove the queen and keep one queen cell, destroy the rest.

Yes, that's one way. Or destroy the cells and check back in a week or so.

>>4. One week after reversal (max 10 days), check for queen cells again. If more queen cells have been made, then split by removing the frames with queen cells. These can be placed in a box above the inner cover with its own entrance and then reunited when a brood nest has been established.

Yes. You stop the swarm, bring a new queen into laying condition, have two queens laying for a time...although separated. Population is boosted and colony is requeend when units are united.
 
#123 ·
this is all great stuff. thanks especially to walt and michael for the willingness to help us less experienced folks along.

dan, i was in a similar situation this year, in that all i had was foundation to give my establishing colonies.

i chose not to use syrup, because we have plentiful forage here, and i believe natural forage is healthier for the bees. plus, i didn't want to 'confuse' the bees as to the timing of the flows here in terms of when to brood up and down.

but i saw pretty much the same thing you did. they went from making a lot of new wax, to not making any more and just filling up what they had, and then swarming.
 
#125 · (Edited)
We're getting off topic again, but for those concerned about having a gap between brood boxes, the horizontal hive is the answer! A queen doesn't have a problem going horizontally between frames.

I have a double width hive that I'm experimenting with at the moment.
See: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275870-Two-queen-hive-and-different-breeds

It allows easy access to the brood nest, without taking the whole hive apart. A larger area of supers exposed to the brood nest so backfilling must occur over a wider area (not sure how significant this is, but could help in swarm prevention).

You can also use different size supers on it. For example I have two half width supers and a super (10 frame deeps) on it at the moment. The half width supers can also be used as 4 frame Nucs. (Just thinking today that you could fit 3 x 6 frame Nucs.)

The disadvantage is having to have two lids and make a large base (or use two bases). To move it you need a hand truck/trolley/dolly or two people.

Wintering could be an issue in colder climates, but we only have a few days a year below freezing, so it's not a problem. Just move the brood nest hard up against one side.

More experimenting in this area to come.
Matthew Davey
 
#128 ·
He knows he knows because of his nose. I think there is a certain amount of assuming going on here. Assuming what a bee smells. Assuming why a bee does what it does because of what it smells. Assuming that there is any smell of baby bees left after any length of time. Assuming that bees don't work foundation when there are all sorts of determining factors other than those sited.

Maybe they didn't work the foundation because conditions weren't right. Lack of a nectar flow. Lack of enuf bees at the right stage of growth to provide wax production. Just to name a few.

Refering to foundation as a toxic waste dump is a gross exageration.
 
#129 ·
Refering to foundation as a toxic waste dump is a gross exageration.
Yes, the problem with written words...
It was a figure of speech. I use foundation myself but I would not use it as a lure in a swarm trap. Nor would I use freshly drawn comb in a swarm trap.
If I were feeding, which I don't do, I would pull up a couple of filled frames below into a box of foundation above to entice the bees (maybe the queen) to go up into the box of foundation and draw it out instead of backfilling the brood nest and swarm. Why would a flow matter if he was feeding? I think it is the smell you don't have to. Most people that I read about pull up filled frames into an empty box of foundation. I had the same problem on my first hive, like most newbies that start off with new "beginner hives", no drawn out comb and you can't pull the deep frame into a medium box even if you know it helps. First you need like equipment and then you need to know it helps. Smell or no smell.
 
#132 · (Edited)
Gees Rader I didn't realized that everyone on beesource is ignorant and needs you to translate all my words into your words so they would understand.
Ace, I don't even attempt to translate your words into something others can understand. You post so much BS, its unlikely that even you can make sense out of it, taken as a whole. :eek:

But I do sometimes offer a public service by highlighting some of your bigger follies.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/follies

And thanks for providing more fuel for future follies. :lpf:
:digging:
I really like those animated icons.
 
#142 ·
u no the answer

I know I don't have the intellectual capacity of others, nor the drive or interest to expand my base all that much, but, I believe my grasp still exceeds my reach, inspite of those who look down from on high w/ their ability to find papers on the internet, read them and regergitate. Let them work w/ Michael Palmer or Chuck Kutik or even Jon MacDonald for a week and come to some meaningful understanding of the Honeybee and me.

I wish I knew what the honeybee knew, ya know?
 
#135 · (Edited)
The problems with the written word are actually very well known. that is why they test readers for things called "Comprehension". The writer is not responsible for the comprehension level of the reader. just as I am not responsible that Barry could not understand the messages he deleted. I guess Barry thinks nobody should have access to knowledge he can't understand.

On the issue of bees and smell and it's effects on a bees behavior.

Social behavior is one of the primary reasons there is interest in the Honey Bee Gnome. It was one of the reasons it was selected as one of the first things to be mapped.

Foraging is a social behavior. so there is significant interest in how it works and is it genetic.

Foraging ability is connected to ability to smell.

Quote from http://www.springerlink.com/content/t170h01p60268760/fulltext.html?MUD=MP

In the search for genes important for the regulation of division of labor, the foraging (for) gene seemed a promising candidate. In addition to PKG-dependent regulation of the response to food-related stimuli in a variety of organisms, for has been shown to be involved in regulating foraging behavior in both larval and adult Drosophila. (taste and smell ar both food related stimuli)

Also from the same paper
In recent years, the honeybee has emerged as an excellent model for molecular and genetic studies of complex social behaviors. By using the global gene expression methods as well as the candidate gene approach, it is now possible to link the function of genes to social behaviors.

In his book “Sociobiology: the new synthesis”, E.O. Wilson argues that sociality is rooted in biological processes, and hence associated with the function of genes (Wilson 1975). Nevertheless, sociality, like other complex behavioral phenotypes, is difficult to analyze in molecular terms, probably due to its polygenic nature as well as confounding epigenetic factors

polygenic in a nut shell is that several genes or even several genetic behaviors all come together to make a single social behavior. this makes tracking it down to the genes that express it very difficult.
link to a definition of polygenic http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/polygenic

This is a link to the wiki for "epigenetic"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
here is my more common language explanation of it. Genes can change their roll or their significance over time without actually changing the gene. In a way they simply become weaker or stronger in their expression. This is one answer as to why a bee changes jobs over the course of their life time. Certain genes begin to shut down while others become active is one way to look at it. but all the genes have been there all along and they do not change as far as their physical make up. So genes do not morph into some other gene.

Again from the paper.
One model that has recently emerged as promising for sociogenomic studies is the honeybee. This insect, which lives in large social colonies, offers a unique combination of an obligatory social species with a relatively simple nervous system, and a good understanding of its sociobiology. Honeybee researchers can now use an array of genetic and molecular tools such as brain EST database (Whitfield et al. 2002), various cDNA libraries, microarrays (Whitfield et al. 2003), high-resolution genetic maps (Ruppell et al. 2004), RNAi and transgenic technologies (Kimura 2001; Farooqui et al. 2003), and most recently, the honeybee genome

Bold lettering is mine. but it shows that this information or conclusions are a result of many studies having been conducted over many years. Most recently and significantly is the honey bee gnome.

The impact of the gnome and the advancements it has made possible is significant. you will have to look that up on your own.

Again from the paper
Behavioral development in honeybees has been shown to be associated with various physiological and neural processes, (Taste is a neural process)

Genes that are likely involved in the regulation of division of labor have also been identified successfully by the “candidate gene approach” (Social behavior of the bee is not only thought to be genetic. they are identifying the genes)


The effects of cGMP and PKG signaling on behavior can be found in both the sensory and central components of the nervous system. These effects on nervous system function can be either long-term organizational, direct short-term effects on neuronal function, or both (Sensory is sight, smell, taste, feel and hearing)

Induction of feeding behavior is also closely linked to cGMP/PKG signaling in a wide variety of invertebrates.

PKG signaling has been recently implicated in both natural behavioral polymorphisms and social behaviors in fruit flies and honeybees, the details of which are discussed below.

In the search for genes important for the regulation of division of labor, the foraging (for) gene seemed a promising candidate. In addition to PKG-dependent regulation of the response to food-related stimuli in a variety of organisms, for has been shown to be involved in regulating foraging behavior in both larval and adult Drosophila. (this simply makes the case that PKG is in fact connected to foraging behavior)

In honeybees, foraging is not an individual decision but rather is regulated on the colony level, suggesting that in social insects the initiation of food gathering behavior is independent of the physiological state of individual colony members

The above presents a problem. If foraging is on a colony level and independent of the physiological state of the bee. is ti really genetic. Well here is where it gets tricky. It basically comes down to a colony wide stimulus of a gene. which may happen via pheromones.

The allelic variants in Drosophila suggest that variations in behavior are due, at least in part, to differences in the expression levels of for, which can be translated to differences in PKG activity levels (Osborne et al. 1997). We cloned a for ortholog from the Western honeybees Apis mellifera (termed Amfor after A. mellifera foraging), and showed that the protein encoded by this gene is more than 80% similar to the Drosophila for gene.

Basically foraging is a result of how much this PKG gene is stimulated. Better yet look at this.

It is also possible to activate PKG genes via pharmacological treatments. In a nut shell a bee that forages when you want at the drop of a hat if you give them the right drugs. Okay not so good for TF thread.

This paper did not focus on taste specifically but taste related behavior of foraging. I have seen others that are on taste specifically and what is said in this paper is consistant.

Bees can be genetically bred toward both the eating of food supplements and foraging through the gens of taste and smell. they are associated with each other. so You have to use both of them together.
 
#137 · (Edited)
The problems with the written word are actually very well known. that is why they test readers for things called "Comprehension". The writer is not responsible for the comprehension level of the reader.
So if the "writer" just strings words together in a random fashion, and the "reader" can't make sense out of gibberish, the problem is the reader's lack of comprehension. Right!! :eek:

Gibberish is a generic term in Englishfor talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning. This meaning has also been extended to meaningless text or gobbledygook. The common theme in gibberish statements is a lack of literal sense, which can be described as a presence of nonsense. Gibberish should not be confused with literary nonsense such as that used in the poem "Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibberish
Just as I am not responsible that Barry could not understand the messages he deleted. I guess Barry thinks nobody should have access to knowledge he can't understand.
You are quite correct. It is obvious that Barry does not want the world to recognize your brilliant mind.

:ws:


Wow, fun follies with both Acebird and Daniel Y in the same thread! :lpf:
 
#138 ·
Edited, Mark you are right I thought I was on a different thread. dangers of coming here via e-mail notifications. I was wondering where this conversation took such a down hill turn. nope it was not so. this thread is just normal for this place. I like this place. I can come here and treat people like crap. it is normal behavior
 
#140 ·
Okay Mark let me say it in littel words.

Smell and taste is foraging related. Comb building is foraging related. So if you can effect foraging which the above makes a very good case of showing just exactly how to do that. It is very likely that you can effect comb building.

I tend to give the children a pile of blocks and let them learn to stack them up. I don't think others learn by me setting in the middle of the floor putting every little piece in place for them.

My overall point is that beekeepers think they have been doing such a great job for so long regardless of the obvious evidence otherwise. You think you can find and use answers? You and most others can't even understand the answers when they are handed to you. They would get deleted because they are confusing.
I love your short Posts I tend to skim over your Treatises or skip over them completely. Short and sweet is what I prefer. Shallow and simpleminded as I am.

The Posts of your which got Deleted were w/out context to anything in this Thread which came before them and seemed to be in response to PMs which deknow had sent you, so Replying in public w/out Dean's part was confusing and of limited value. Barry is the arbiter of these things. Take it up w/ him through PMs.

I am only respoinsible for what I say, not what you hear. I believe that is what some are refering to. I don't think that comes across well in text communication, where the meaning of what one writes should be somewhat more accurately conveyed in a manner more clear and easily understood. Regardless of typos or misspellings

Thanks for the tutorials. Luv u 2.
 
#143 ·
mark, i regretted making that post immediately after i clicked it in.

i wasn't at all challenging intellect, but rather maturity. :)

it was a round about way of asking the posters to move on from squabbling like a couple of kids at recess, and get back to the issue at hand.

sorry for the confusion.

me thinks me posts too much. :)
 
#145 ·
I should have preficed my second comments by writing that I was not responding to your Post but to Posts of those disparaging my intelect.

We're good 'peg. No problemo Doc.

I appreciate a beekeeper who has a decent balance of knowledge and understanding and handson experience. One reason I like Randy Oliver, Wyatt Mangum, Jerry Hayes, Larry Conner, and others to numerous to name who write so well about their research and their experience.

There are reasons they don't participate on beesource.

DanielY, have u ever considered joining and Posting on Bee-L? Maybe you aught to give it a try.
 
#146 ·
Now that we've got the personal comments out of the way, can we get back to the topic?

I've been talking with Walt about the development of wax builders during swarm preparations. (Walt, Hope you don't mind me sharing this.)

He pointed out that house bees are used as storage tanks for nectar once the brood nest has been backfilled and this causes wax makers/builders to develop. This is important in that a swarm must be able to build comb. Before the swarm, little wax is produced.

If I put the process in a tree like structure you can see the major trigger points:


Excess incoming nectar
|
----- Causes backfilling of the brood nest​
|
----- Causes reduction of space for the queen to lay​
|
----- Causes less open brood​
|
----- Causes excess Nurse bees​
|
----- Causes extra feeding of larvae​
|
----- Causes Queen cells​
|
----- Causes house bees to be used as storage tanks​
|
----- Causes wax builders to develop​


So Checkerboarding and Overhead nectar management work at the first level, avoiding backfilling of the brood nest in the first place. But this requires drawn comb!

Opening the brood nest is focused on the next level down, as it aims to give the queen more space to lay (despite the backfilling) and also helps to develop wax builders. Once wax builders are active, comb is more likely to be extended to store nectar and so backfilling is reduced.

With that, I've realised that I'm also looking at the second level when suggesting that maintaining proportions at 1/3 open brood and 2/3 capped brood is ideal during swarm season.

I think it's important to develop wax makers before swarm prep, but can't see how it can be done without opening the brood nest. (Of course the other option is that you fill the hive with sugar water. Obviously this is NOT something to be encouraged, especially if you want a honey crop!)

Comments?

Matthew Davey
 
#147 ·
Excess incoming nectar
|
----- Causes backfilling of the brood nest​


I think you need to add another line between these two. It isn't incoming nectar that causes backfilling of the broodnest...its the fact that there is no overhead comb space for nectar storage. This occurs because the colony has hit the top of the cavity...tree or hive. In a tree, there's no one there to provide overhead nectar storage space. In a bee hive there is...via supering/reversing/checkerboarding, or what have you.​
 
#148 ·
matt, i am still in the process of consolidating my notes from last spring, but i did notice some wax building in my establishing hives (overwintered nucs) prior to swarm issue. (especially on foundationless frames, but also on frames of foundation in new honey supers).

all of these overwintered nucs swarmed within a 4 - 5 week period from late march to early may.

walt points out in his paper that the priorties are different for establishing hives, and this may be why i saw that.

otherwise, most of the observations walt describes are what i saw as well.

you are approaching your summer solstice there. did you have swarming this spring?
 
#152 ·
... i did notice some wax building in my establishing hives (overwintered nucs) prior to swarm issue. (especially on foundationless frames, but also on frames of foundation in new honey supers)...
Squarepeg, were they still in Nuc boxes when they did this?
Also, did they run out of space well before swarm season?

My thoughts are that wax building can start earlier if they run out of storage space when the brood nest is full of brood (brood batches, for example) and temperatures are still too cold for swarming. House bees are used for nectar storage and so produce wax. If the foundationless frames had drawn frames on either side and were directly above the brood nest, I would think they would build wax, especially in a Nuc.

I have not had any of my hives swarm, but they are all in establishment mode. Even the two queen hive. I have been encouraging wax building for some time now as I have no spare comb. I looked through mine last Friday and still have heaps of brood!

In terms of Repo cutoff, I realised that the major flow was starting last Friday. Because my hives have been already building comb there was no signs of "wax dumping" so I organised with my brother to have a look through his hives on the Saturday.

When we went to one of his hives we found the queen was being balled in a plum size cluster of bees. (She is no longer.) We had a look in the hive and found queen cells. These cells were made of new wax and looked like they had just been capped. So it looks like Repo cutoff just occurred.

My brother had put on a queen excluder on last time he inspected by himself and put a super on top. (I would have discouraged him from the excluder). So anyway, of course they didn't go through the excluder and started backfilling when they ran out of space.

This is the same hive that last year, superseded and then swarmed. Although it was a few weeks later last year.

We took the excluder of, so hopefully between now and when the queen(s) emerge, the flow will encourage them to start building wax and stay put.

Matthew Davey
 
#149 ·
I am very interested in all this limits stuff and still don't know anything about it specifically. I need to order Walts book but with limited funds. it is a no go right now. Actually I have reached a self imposed threshold only beekeeping. the only money that I will spend on bees from now on is money they have generated. No honey no money. sorry Walt.

Anyway I am hoping someone can make a guesstimate on whether I unknowingly dealt with this cut off.

I got my bees about May 10th of last year as a healthy 5 frame nuc with a queen that was already laying and out of room. I put them in a 10 frame box. They drew this comb out over about a two week period and started putting some nectar above brood. but for the most part this box became wall to wall brood. I had a second deep on the hive by June 1st that was all foundation. no empty drawn comb. the bees moved up and started drawing comb fairly well.

I did notice during one inspection that the queen was actually laying eggs before cells where completely built. eventually she filled most of this deep with brood and I had added a med above that planning for the bees to store honey their. The queen by this time had moved back down tot eh lower deep and i did not think there was a lot of risk she would go all the way up to that medium to lay. But the bees would not move up into he med. Eventually I put sugar water back on the hive to entice them to go into the med. and they did finally start drawing that comb. but as I recall this was a delay of about a month. From thr time I put that med on the rest of the summer, nothing happened in my hive that seemed completely right to me.

Maybe it was problems with getting bees to to take to foundation. maybe they had already started back filling the nest. I am not sure. But if there was anything I could have done to have gotten different results I would sure like to get a 20 20 hindsight education from it.

I live in a city so the likelyhood that there was no flow at all is not likely. But as far as I can tell these bees stopped massing stores.

I realize this year they should be stronger and more productive. I want to be prepared to make better management decisions in the coming season. I know this year I will be looking more at honey production and the steps to manage it than I was last year. but still their is a lot I think I missed and did not do. and I still don't know what that is.

The good news is that two days ago this hive had a cleansing flight that startled me. so far wintering seems to be going very well for them. Keeping my fingers crossed.
 
#153 ·
I have been able to read Walts book now.

First I will say it has a lot of observation and conclusion in it. Not that those conclusions will not eventually be shown accurate. but this alone is a very slippery slope. I think the best discussion I have seen on it for a while is by Michael Bush on his web site under scientific studies. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm

It is simply an area full of pit falls. It is difficult to see for ourselves when obvious things are actually misleading.

I will say some of what Walt describes answers what I saw in my hive last year. I believe now that I was drastically expending the brood nest and the bees responded with an immediate and powerful reduction of it. They also never had enough time to explore and accept added space. My observations would support that bees are not immediately welcoming of empty space placed above them. I more than once saw bees lined up along the top of their upper honey frames peering into the new empty space. A few brave souls could be found on the foundation of the upper box. This actually went on for several weeks. I did not break up the deep of honey they had made over their brood nest. So I don't know if I had if they would have taken to that med better or not. I do know that starting a hive by checker boarding even the brood nest increased their acceptance of it immediately. I then did the same with a deep above them with the same results. I then stopped the method due to warning from other beekeepers. Had I continued this on up into the honey supers. I had the impression I would have sen continued accelerated expansion. I will knwo more this year as this time I am not goign to listen to the warnings. If I kill off my colony, at least they will leave a ton of honey behind.
 
#154 ·
>>Squarepeg, were they still in Nuc boxes when they did this?
Also, did they run out of space well before swarm season?

sorry matt, i just now saw your post.

no, they overwintered in full sized deeps, that had been reduced down with a divider board.

prior to swarm issue, the deeps had been filled with comb, and a medium super had been filled as well.

i think my mistake was adding a second medium super in between the deep and the drawn super.

i believe it created a 'barrier', and started the backfilling and swarming.

in the future, i will add undrawn mediums of foundation on the very top, or the very bottom, keeping the drawn comb contiguous.

(i like the ritecell foundation for honey supers, because i have a tendency to spin them too fast, and have frames with just wired wax foundation disintegrate in the extractor)

as for walt's observations, i found all of them to be spot on in my experience.

he and mike bush had asked for folks to experiment by putting in foundation and foundationless frames before swarm season. i tried it, and found that the bees will draw foundationless frames sooner and faster the frames with foundation.
 
#156 ·
could be ace. i felt like it might have to do with the foundationless frame presenting the bees with a 'space' to fill in between combs already being worked, as opposed to a 'wall' or 'barrier' that the foundation presented.
 
#158 ·
i think they would see drawn comb as something they could and would use right away, much different that a 'wall' don't ya think. i didn't feed last year, and found that most of the comb drawn for the year was primarily during the main flow.
 
#159 ·
An update on my brother's hive.

They have not swarmed. In fact there is now quite a bit of brood, both capped and open. There is also now a number of darker bees in the hive, even a number of black drones. But it doesn't add up!

The only thing that makes sense is that the new queen had already been laying when the the old queen was balled.

No new comb had been drawn, only existing honey comb built out much wider, starting to be capped. So we put on another super and alternated this with the top super, so every second comb has foundation.

Matthew Davey
 
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