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258K views 271 replies 88 participants last post by  Michael Palmer 
#1 ·
Michael Bush has asked that I participate in a discussuin on "Wintering Nucs."

I do winter nucs here in the northern Champlain Valley of Vermont and New York. More than 400 this winter. This is sometning that my good friend and sometimes mentor, Kirk Webster, has talked me into. I say talked me into, because at first I was not convinced. I mean, if my production colonies couldn't winter very well, how could 4 frame nucs. Anyway, I did give it a half hearted try...about 15 years ago.

I had a yard to move, one that had dwindled to only 15 colonies. The spot was too windy, and the road too rough, and the neighbors...recently built a house...too angry. Rather than just move them, I split them into 4 frame nucs, installed queens, and walked away. I wintered them on top of other colonies. 90% made it. I thought that was pretty amazing, considering I had done no management.

So, encouraged, I made more the next summer. I had two options. I could remove brood from production colonies, or I could split up weak...non-productive colonies. Since the best time for me to make these nucs is mid-summer, and that's when the crop is on, and would require lots of extra lifting, I chose the latter method.. It has become the foundation of my ability to keep my numbers up, and raise my own stock.

I think the method is simple enough, and what is required of each beekeeper is to get the timing right for each area of the country. Obviously, the time for making up nucs in Vermont will not be the same as for Nebraska where MB lives, or Virginia, or Ohio...etc.

Anyway, here in Vermont, the best time for making up nucs is mid to late July. Non-productive colonies are sacrifised. 1 1/2 frames of brood and bees are place in each nuc box, until all brood from the weak colony is used up. I use 4 frame, double nuc boxes, but the style isn't of much importance. It's what's in the box that counts. Along with the two frames containing brood, I add one comb of honey and pollen, and one empty comb or frame of foundation. This yields 4 - 6 nucs. I find if I make them too strong that they will swarm on the fall flow. So, resist adding extra shakes of bees...as you would with spring made splits. Mid-summer nucs are different. You want them to just build up enough to populate the box with young bees, and then shut down. Remember, when the brood hatches, there will be lots of bees. So, just add enough bees to cover the brood. Also remember...it is mid-summer. The nights are warmer, and chilled brood isn't much of a problem. Swarming is!! So, after making up what nucs you can from the weak hive. I move the nuc boxes to another yard and give each a laying queen or ripe cell.

The split up hive can often be saved, if you find the old queen, as they still have all the field bees. Give the one box on the bottom 4 to 6 combs of honey, and 4 to 5 empty combs, and the old queen. They build up quite quickly. When there is hatching brood, the unit can be requeened with the last round of mated queens...in August, and wintered on top of another colony. If you have a longer season, it can be increased to 1 1/2 stories, and wintewred on a stand that way.

A few weeks after making them up, they must be checked for strength. Those with exceptionally prolific queens will begin swarm preparationa on the fall (late) flows. Don't let this happen. If it does, you lose your bought or raised queen, and they often go into winter with small clusters...although many will still winter. Uf they are getting too strong...cups with eggs, or young cells are started, remove a frame, and add a empty or foundation. As long as there is a flow on, you have to manage them. Some will be so strong that you can remove two frames and give an empty and a foundation, or two empties. The idea is to have them packed with bees at the end of your last flow, with a couple frames of food, and no cells. THis is where the iming comes in. It's just something you will have to experiment with.

For winter...here...I want about 20 pounds of feed for winter. I don't want every cell and nook and cranny filled with honey or syrup. The bees still need clustering space...just like a full sized colony. I remove each frame, and see hoe much additional feed they will need to have 3.5 frames of feed...in a four frame nuc. They are moved in late fall, and winter on top of a production colony's inner cover. No communication hole or screen between the two. This gives them a nice warm dry place to winter. Further south, they can be wintered on a stand, and even stacked on top of each other...wintered in blocks of 6 or 9 double boxes.

Now, another plan is to start them earlier...say mid June here. These will positively swarm. So, after they fill their section, they are again split...say in mid-July. In this way, the original 4 - 6 nucs becomes 8 - 12. So, from your original weak colony, you can get anwhere from 4 to 12 nucs. Some years, the second round of splitting will yield 3 nucs from each original nuc, and will yield 12 - 18 nucs. This of course depends on where you keep bees, how strong your flows are, and how well they build up.

I think the biggest problems you will face are swarming, chalk brood, and poor queens. But if you make enough, you will have some spectacular nucs, some average nucs, and some duds that can be requeened and given brood from nucs that are too strong.

That's it for now. Have to go to Darts, where we're playing a top ranked team. We beat #1 the other night 20-10 :) I went out with 140 in 301, if you know what that means.

I'm sure I haven't been entirely clear on my procedure, and there will be plenty of questions...so I'll answer them as they come in.
 
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#62 ·
Mosherd, I am a believer in upper entrances for winter. My plan is to use feedbag inner covers (fbic) and then above that a piece of 2 inch closed cell foam insulation. I am thinking of cutting a notch in that foam and then lining that notch with a little wood so that the bees can't get at the foam. This exit will be at the front of each nuc. Above the foam I will add the migratory style wooden cover I have on the nucs at present. I will probably wrap the hives after thanksgiving to seal off any drafts due to poor wood to wood fitting caused by my rudimentary woodworking. I am more confident checking the bees if they are in individual boxes. I don't like having to lift the cover of both to see one.
 
#64 · (Edited)
Mike- That's a great clarification of what you are doing now. Makes perfect sense. I'm in one of those marginal flow areas. Most years it comes to a screeching halt around mid to late June. This year we are getting some rain so the bees are maintaining, at least for now.

When you add brood to the cell builder, is it mostly open brood or capped?

Thanks, Richard
 
#69 ·
Jeez, Mike, just when I thought I had your old system figured out... This is like the switch from DOS to Windows.
Ha!!
having learned DOS first.. i find that it makes all computing easier. But seriously, it is just a slight turn not a huge shift. Nucs are great brood builders. When I first started making them a few years ago, I made some in may and did exactly this, raised brood from them. Made nucs from more nucs, etc. Now I too have raised a few queens in nucs.
 
#72 ·
I had a mean hive that I was having trouble finding the queen, but she was an egg laying machine. Just kept pulling frames of brood and making nucs with new queen cells. Got new colonies started and kept the mean hive population down to manageable numbers:)
 
#73 ·
I did my last graft of the Summer today and plan on putting those cells into their nucs sometime around the 25th of July. Of course they will need to mate and start laying, putting us at early August. Then 21 days after that is the 3rd or 4th week of August before the first cycle of brood hatches out. My question is that I want to overwinter each nuc in two 5 frame deep nuc boxes stacked on top of each other. Should there be enough time for them to manage this before winter assuming I will be starting the nucs with 2 frames with brood on it? Should I do 3 frames of brood?
 
#75 ·
Good to know. I am curious what the difference in climate is between northern VT and northern CT. I have some extra frames of honey that I can load up in the 2nd story to cut down on feed if I need to. I will definitely give 3 frames of brood and maybe some extra shakes also. Thanks for your advice.
 
#76 ·
WOW! This thread is just what I have been looking for. Thanks to all for the great info and though provoking questions. And especially to Michael for all of the time he has obviously put into this.
I am at the point in my beekeeping where I'm either going to stay small, 8-10 hives, or go gangbusters. I've really been looking hard at overwintering practices and minimizing losses. All of what you folks are discussing is very timely.
Thanks again.
 
#79 ·
Heres something i noticed . I have a friend that wrapped a hive with foam last season...it was the only one to make it through the winter ..its still wrapped in foam...my point being...it had no bees bearding ...where mine is ...the insulation keeps a steady temp.
 
#83 ·
MP: i am fascinated by the thought of overwintering in nucs. i am in upstate ny but right on the pa border. i just made up a few mating nucs out of 10 frame medium boxes..spilt into 4 sections though i'm finding that i don't like the 2 frame set up so i am using 4 frames each side. anyway, how would i make this a 2 story set up for overwintering? i cut the grooves into the box and have luan panels that stick up from the top for the separate tops. i'm just having a hard time envisioning how to make this 2 story. do you have any pics you could share so i can see your set up? i sure would appreciate it. thanks!
 
#84 ·
MP: i cut the grooves into the box and have luan panels that stick up from the top for the separate tops.
I have used Deep queen castles which also have a little bit of masonite sticking up as a divider. While possibly not ideal, it is what I had to work with at the time and I have had no problem putting 4 frame nucs on top as a 2nd story (this was an idea I borrowed from MP ). On some there appears to be a small gap, but bees can not get through and you could always duct tape it if you were really concerned. it has not created any problems for me. In my set up using QC's I have 5 frames downstairs and 4 upstairs. This year I am trying using a division board feeder upstairs. I also winter using individual nuc boxes.

I have not perfected the art of posting photos here yet, but here is a link to some photos. I can take a few more that show how the divider sticks up a bit if you want... but as I said, has not created any problems.
http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l224/winevines/OW%20Nucs%202%20Story/

In this photo you can see the lime green shim on one side which brought the top box up over the level of that little bit of divider sticking out. I have found the shim was totally unnecessary. Now that I look at this photo, above the shim is actually the cover to the bottom nuc on that side and the top box is an entirely separate nuc. You get the idea hopefully...
[URL="[/URL]
 
#86 ·
My comfort level in having a divided box is low. Overwinter I made 18 individual 5 frame boxes. At the time of writing I have a group of 4 and a group of 5 double story nucs. We are just about to go into Goldenrod bloom. When I come back from vacation in two weeks I plan to weigh them, and feed to a wintering weight. When the weather gets cold, probably around Thanksgiving I plan to push the group of four together and the group of five together and insulate them.
Some have upper entrances some have lower entrances. I may leave it that way and see what happens. Kirk Webster, another nuc. proponent has a website with links to his writings; He says that the upper ventilations keeps the dead-outs dryer and the combs in better condition, but stops short of saying that upper ventilation increases winter survival.
Working with nucs this summer has been fascinating. I am hopeful that with luck some will survive until spring. Last year I had one side of a divided nuc survive overwinter despite the bitter cold. If I am lucky enough to have half of these survive I will have enough bees not to have to buy packages in the spring.
 
#88 ·
I think an upper entrance is critical and increases winter survival. Not sure if Kirk has mentioned the icicles hanging out the bottom entrance in nucs without upper entrances but I know we both had that issue. Way too wet inside the nuc with no upper. My photo doesn't show the auger hole I use...these nucs don't have one yet. I drill a 3/4" auger hole just above the hand hold and below the ears on the top bars. No more moisture problem.
 
#89 ·
http://www.bobhackbees.com/over-wintering-or-not.html
http://www.yulesapiaries.com/VideosandPics.html
i found these links last night. the second link has a video presentation given by MP about overwintering nucs. enjoy!
i sort of overwintered a nuc last yr. i had a great little swarm from July that was building like crazy and then it went through a torrential downpour we had and mostly all the bees drowned.(i found out then how having an upper and lower entrance was a must!) anyway, my hubby and i had built an ob hive that summer so i put them in there with 3 combs of honey and 1 brood and the other mostly empty. they did great over the winter and didn't really want any sugar water. it was great seeing what they were doing all the time too!
 
#90 ·
Mike, Kirk mentioned the icicles. He wrote that it was disconcerting, but didn't affect survival - it only affected the quality of combs on nucs that died out. Your advice has served me well in the past, so I think I'm going to drill me a few holes.
With the two story nucs do you have a goal weight going in to winter? How do you gauge that the two story has enough stores?
 
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