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Depending on your replies, I may have to quit before I start.

10K views 31 replies 18 participants last post by  beepro 
#1 ·
After reading numerous articles and watching a countless number of videos I have a concern that has been nagging at me. There is a feral hive near me that is a survivor hive. It has varroa, lived through the past brutal winter and has been there for at least 9 years maybe more. I believe this hive is isolated and up to this point the genetics have not been diluted by imported bees. I realize that the genetics of this hive are extremely important and I want to get a swarm off this hive in order to get those genetics but we all know what a hit or miss proposition that is. My concern is that I have 2 packages of New Zealand bees coming in 2 weeks and I'm worried that drones from these packages will dilute the genetics enough that the wild hive will lose it's survivability. Do you think this may be a problem? Thank you in advance for any replies.
Colino
 
#2 ·
Wouldn't worry about it. If they've been there 9 yrs then there is enough of a population there to drown out the noise from your 2 packages.

Any "dilution", if bad, will be selected out of the wild population anyway. "Survivability" is best thought of at the population level, not the hive level.
 
#4 ·
I have the same situation here where I work. A survivor hive that has been in the cinderblock wall for at least 7 years. I have a trap out there right now because my son wants this particular hive...genetics, no treatments, not being fed sugar...all the "pure" reasons. But I've also warned him there are no guarantees concerning the queen. This hive swarms every year and if the new queen mates with a drone from a hive where the beekeeper does all the "wrong" things, then are her genetics now polluted? I think most of the feral hives in this area have come from beekeeper's swarms so there is nothing very special about them. All that I do know is the hive in the wall survives on its on and that's good enough for me. Whether hygienic genes is the reason...who knows?
 
#14 ·
Trapping out the colony without getting the queen will end that genetic line. You'd be killing the one thing you want to save.
Catching swarms from that hive is the way to go, you would get one of her daughter queens every time you catch a swarm.
 
#5 ·
When I had to bring in package bees into my mating area, I would run the packages through a queen excluder. This will isolate all drones for removal. I did not intend to keep any package queens, so my intent seems different than what you're doing. Would it matter in your case? Not sure, but this would give you some peace of mind. Of course the packages will eventually produce drones, which given your concern will still be an issue. I assume you don't own this survivor colony, correct? Is the colony in conventional boxes? If so, could you negotiate a split or a graft? How certain are you that there are no other colonies within miles of this survivor? Package bees vary, and I know nothing about the ones from NZ, but the ones I'm familiar with (GA) have VERY little mite resistance.
 
#7 ·
i'm glad i don't sell queens. a certain beekeeper has sure poisoned the well where bees from georgia are concerned.
i have a neighbor a couple of miles from me that started 20 hives about 10 years ago with rossman packages and queens and hasn't treated them.
he doesn't manage them, he just likes having bees. he loses some and he catches some swarms every year.
they are no longer "pure" italians but they did start with georgia commercial stock and show the influence. my bees have have a couple of generations of open mating behind them now and they too are mutts and i started with stock from south alabama, north georgia and east georgia. supposedly the south alabama and north georgia queens had glenn apiaries vsh stock behind them, i don't know.
i know that i do see an occasional adult mite but i don't see any deformed wing virus. also in late february and early march several of my hives drag a lot of drone pupae out of the hives.
my neighbor lets his hives cast swarms and i force brood breaks in mine so by definition i suppose we treat but no pesticides and still plenty of bees.
 
#8 ·
Do as the post above suggested. Pour the new bees on top of a queen excluder as you put them in the hive. Kill all the drones. Set out swarm traps to catch swarms from the feral hive. Raise queens from the swarm and requeen your package bees with swarm derived queens. Then you are propagating the survivor stock.
 
#10 ·
Some packages come without any drones at all, because the bees are harvested by smoking the bees up through a queen excluder.

However if there are drones and you want to remove them here's an easy method long as weather is not too cold, you'll need 2 queen excluders per hive. Put a queen excluder on the bottom board and then an empty super on it. Shake the package in & put another queen excluder on top and then the hive, being the part with frames etc that you want the bees to be in. Overnight the bees will move up through the excluder, remove the bottom super complete with both excluders you have the drones trapped in there, you can smoke then leave for a while to encourage any remaining workers to leave.

The queen of course should be introduced to the top box and all this depends on weather being warm enough to risk having bees & queen temporarily separated.

Greater issue is the on going drones that will be made from the imported queen.
 
#15 ·
First off let me thank everyone for their replies.

Greater issue is the on going drones that will be made from the imported queen.
That is my main concern, these ladies are isolated, there are no other hives within 5 miles. So any genetic pollution will be my fault.

I think your goal should be how to dilute the New Zealand bees with the 9 year survivors.
That will be my goal if I can catch a swarm from them, but I'm risking altering their genetics/survivability if I don't catch a swarm before I produce drones which mate with a feral queen.

Trapping out the colony without getting the queen will end that genetic line. You'd be killing the one thing you want to save.
Catching swarms from that hive is the way to go, you would get one of her daughter queens every time you catch a swarm.
I have no intentions of trapping out the colony, in fact I won't even take starts from it because I don't want to chance killing the colony with some stupid mistake.

After weighing all the pros and cons from everyone it seems my only option will be to move my bee yard over to a neighbors' place about 6 miles away, at least until I can catch a swarm and re-queen my hives from the feral colony. I just didn't want to have to travel to keep my bees because here they would be only a couple of 100 feet from the house. But to insure the integrity of the feral hive and protect what could be an important resource I may do it instead of giving up the idea of keeping bees.
Colino
 
#13 ·
My concern is that I have 2 packages of New Zealand bees coming in 2 weeks and I'm worried that drones from these packages will dilute the genetics enough that the wild hive will lose it's survivability.
No I don't think it is a problem. I think your goal should be how to dilute the New Zealand bees with the 9 year survivors.
 
#16 ·
If you don't want to travel to keep your bees and not want to dilute the survivor stock then
use a chain saw to make a hole big enough to reach in to get some larvae for your graft. This
way you can have some survivor queens to head your New Zealand package bees too. It is a little
bit of work but can be done. Seal the hole back after you are done and every year you will have some
survivor stock to propagate from.
 
#19 ·
I believe that you are worrying about something that you don't need to. You seem to be assuming greater genetic effect than actually can have. You overestimate the effects that one set of genes may have on another.

Isolation is relative. No colony of bees can exist 9 years w/out there being other colonies nearby. Nearby meaning w/in the maximum distance which swarms fly away from their parent hive. And also w/in drone congregation area range. So, just because you don't know about them they are out there somewhere.

I wish you well w/ whatever swarm you might gather off of this feral colony, just don't get your hopes and expectations up too high. One thing I would bet on is that they are swarmy. That's how feral colonies survive, survive mites.
 
#21 ·
I'm not worried about imported bees in general, just what effect the genes from them will contaminate a long surviving feral hive. Because like you say N.Z bees are not necessarily cold weather bees and I don't want to ruin a good feral hive. I am just glad to have been able to locate bees at all this year.
Colino
 
#22 · (Edited)
For what it's worth, I agree with the posts that state that there are almost certainly a number of feral survivors in your area. I don't see how one feral hive can survive 9 years or even 3 without other feral survivors for queens to mate with. Your NZ genetics will have much less effect on say 10 colonies than on one.
Who knows, the gentics may even have a positive impact on the feral population by bringing in more deversity.
If you do want to keep your genetics from the feral survivors, just eliminate as many of your drones as you easily can. Then next year or even this year, split your hives and let the new queens mate with the drones from the ferals. Or, pinch your queens after they have started laying. Or similar techniques. That is the easiest way to get those genetics in your hives.
View yourself as fortunate.
 
#23 ·
Ok I'm getting a clearer picture now. There must be other feral hives around but I know for sure that there are no commercial or hobby hives within 5 or 6 miles. Whatever DCA there is around here is most likely feral, so it's pinch the new queens after they start laying and let them raise their own queens which they may do anyway according to a video I watched by Michael Palmer. When the new queens mate it will be feral drones that do the job because the packages probably won't be producing any drones at first. While the new brood won't be fully feral they might inherit enough survivability to make it through our tough winters. I don't expect much honey this year anyway and what I really desire is longevity of my stock with minimum intervention all the while not having to drive to the neighbors to tend my hives.
Thank you all for putting my mind at ease, this forum is truly an important resource.
Colino
 
#27 ·
Also because you don't know how good the genetic is after it is mixed with your NZ bees,
you might want do a split or 2 before pinching your package queens. You don't want to
deal with a laying worker hive. I would evaluate first before making them queen less.
Okay I won't pinch them until they've built up enough to start a couple of nucs with the 2 queens and I will leave the parent hives with resources to build new queens. Thanks.

I think this is much ado about nothing.
I've formulated a plan about what I want to do with my bee keeping so I'm just being cautious and I want to build for the future. I don't need to use my bees for income so I want to do it in as environmentally compatible fashion as I can. The bees have been there for 9 years and I have lived long enough to know my ability to screw things up. If I have to destroy something just because I need something to do than I won't do it. With the plan everyone has helped me work out it looks like a go. Besides if it is a none issue I've got the time to be, "better safe than sorry".
Colino
 
#25 ·
Also because you don't know how good the genetic is after it is mixed with your NZ bees,
you might want do a split or 2 before pinching your package queens. You don't want to
deal with a laying worker hive. I would evaluate first before making them queen less.
 
#28 ·
Your best insurance for longevity will be in numbers. The more hives you have going into winter the better your chances of succeeding in a severe environment.

If you got 10 swarms off that feral hive chances are at least a few would not make it (just the inherent variability in nature). If it were me I'd keep the original two queens if they are building up good but do at least one split from each hive and let them raise their own queens in nucs. Then you have at least four hives going into winter w/ at least two 50% native queens (if one or both hives supercede then daughter queens would be average 75% native).

Those NZ bees may surprise you.
 
#30 ·
I discussed our swarm window with another bee keeper from around here. It turns out that it is mid July to mid August, so that really leaves little time for swarms to build up for winter. Any swarms that do make it through our winters will be good stock. I'm putting out 36 traps this year within a 25 mile radius, so some of the swarms will be from managed colonies and some will be feral, I think I will combine any I catch into hives with good numbers in the hopes that they over winter. I'll try to determine which would be the best queens to keep and these hives will be kept at my neighbors place 5 miles away. Of course all this depends on if I catch multiple swarms or any swarms at all. If I catch swarms from the feral colony I'm concerned about, they will be in my home yard.

Colino, you appear to want to do the natural thing so let nature weed out the genetics that don't work.
I never ever thought I would think of myself as a tree huger, but grand children have a way of changing your world view.:D
 
#32 ·
Remember that the drones also have the 50/50 genetic make up. How do you handle the NZ drones in your
parent hives to control this part? Do you allow your NZ drones to fly freely or let the F1 daughters to make the
50/50 drones with less of the NZ genetic influence. Don't forget about the drones too.
 
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