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Actual weight of 3 lb. package

18K views 79 replies 20 participants last post by  Chemguy 
#1 ·
I picked up, and installed, 5 three pound packages of bees today. Out of curiosity, I weighed the packages before I shook the bees out, and after. Just wondering if anyone else has done the same.

Now, a package will include:
1. The wooden housing unit
2. A can of syrup
3. Three lbs of bees (ideally); and
4. A queen in a queen cage, with candy.

Now after the bees have been sitting in the cage for a while, they should be eating some of the syrup. And since they have been unable to use the bathroom, theoretically if you put three pounds of bees in the package, after a few days the bees should weigh more than three lbs. At least theoretically. Here's the results that I got:

Weight with bees:
1. 6 lbs. 7.9 oz.
2. 6 lbs. 4.9 oz.
3. 6 lbs. 12.2 oz.
4. 6 lbs. 5.9 oz.
5. 5 lbs. 14.6 oz.
Average: 6 lbs. 5.9 oz.

Weight when bees removed, can returned (minus weight of benton cage, as it was installed with bees):
1. 3 lbs. 13.2 oz.
2. 3 lbs. 11.9 oz.
3. 3 lbs. 15.2 oz.
4. 3 lbs. 13.5 oz.
5. 3 lbs. 6.2 oz.
Average: 3 lbs. 12 oz.

Which means the difference was (or the actual weight of the bees and benton cage):
1. 2 lbs. 10.7 oz.
2. 2 lbs. 9 oz.
3. 2 lbs. 13 oz.
4. 2 lbs. 8.4 oz.
5. 2 lbs. 8.4 oz.
Average: 2 lbs. 9.9 oz.

Which essentially means I didn't buy 3 lb. packages. I bought 2.5 lb packages (or probably a little bit less, after they gorged themselves on syrup). Not really that big of a deal in the end. Just interesting.

I always thought that package suppliers shook a little bit more than 3 lbs. in each package. I guess I thought wrong ;)

Anyone else ever notice the same?
 
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#42 ·
I would bet good hard money that if you had actually weighed packages 20 years ago you would have seen the same results... we just didn't have beesource to gripe!...;)
As for sears. I still have some boxes of foundation from the mid 70s that are from sears.......
 
#43 ·
I would bet good hard money that if you had actually weighed packages 20 years ago you would have seen the same results... we just didn't have beesource to gripe!...;)
Lol, maybe. But 20 years ago they didn't switch the name from "3#" to "#3". If they were selling bees for less than the weight for over 20 years, why switch the name all of a sudden?
 
#44 ·
Not sudden been done for over 5 years........ I cant answer all those, I can just tell you whats been conveyed to me. I have been working closely with several major package guys for the lest few years on a new product. I am Dang sure every one of these guys bust there buts to send out quality bees on time with good queens. and its not an easy task to ship bees and be sure they arrive alive. The post office and UPS love to kill bees, weather is a unpredictible at best, and keeping hives stong is not easy. Watching and helping these guys and seeing there dedication, well to be honest it makes me want to just ________ some of the whiners.... Even some of my customers..... I had two this year who wanted "gaurnted bees" I said guaranty what???? they didn't have a clue.........
so my post are intended to help explain and vouch for the guys ALL of which are way to busy to come to these forums and post.......... Yes I am sure there are a cpl clowns out there.... but dang few.... with about 30 main guys nationwide producing right at 600,000 packages..... these guys are serious about happy customers and bust there buts to do it..... these guys are in the yard working by 7am, and don't quit until well after dark.......and every one will stop to talk to you even if your only picking up 1 package. and so far only 1 has not allowed my full access and pictures.... And that one just didn't want the pictures...... I guess you could say I take it personal when someone runs these fine TOP of the line beekeepers in the ground. without them, most of us would have a lot less to talk about!
 
#47 ·
Last year Koehoens had UPS put allthere bees in plastic bags cause they were "makeing honey" The post office routinly ignores ventalation and inverts packages that say "this side up" (bees starve) as well as leave them out on the loading docks... There was a bit of sarcasm there, but they definatly don't take the care they did 20 years ago........
 
#48 ·
The post office routinly ignores ventalation and inverts packages that say "this side up" .
I am sure this is ignorance which may or may not be solved by special handling. I don't know what all the policies of the USPS are. The thing is how do you ship them coast to coast if you don't have their service?
 
#54 ·
Well, well, well Mr. Charlie...........Lets play the blame UPS game. Koehnens run a fabulous ship but I would bet a 1000 bucks that the "honey" was a leaking syrup can. That or they shook the bees on a honey flow and the bees got to hot and threw up all over themselves and it leaked out, UPS happens to have other customers who really don't want their packages arriving all sticky....... Can you blame them for bagging them.

As someone whose customers fork out over 30k a year for shipping bees overnight each year (all over the US) I know what the issue is. Our success rate went up 5- 7 points when we "cannned" the syrup cans. Especially the kind Koehnens use. Since every package gets shook in the morning and are in the customers hands by 6 pm the next evening the necessity of the extra mess and weight of a syrup can is just a disaster waiting to happen. Our success rate in getting live bees to people has hovered at 98.5- 98.7 % the last three years since the cans went bye-bye. Swarms live in trees longer than 48 hours all the time.

Pickup packages is another story... They get the feed and I let the customers determine what appropriate handling is to keep the syrup in the cans.

BTW not sure if UPS shipped bees 20 years back.......
 
#49 ·
We went from the weight of a package... to the size of dimensional lumber, to the quality of Toyota vehicles, to the Walmart business model and on to the shipping practices of the Postal Service. Just when I think I have seen it all... this forum never ceases to amaze me.
 
#51 ·
At any rate package production isn't a get rich quick scheme. Many have failed over the years and the entire industry is dependent on Reputation.

I don't believe there is a Package producer out there intentionally trying to scam anybody. It is a pretty competitive industry which keeps all of the producers on a similar standard.
 
#53 ·
This has been a fascinating thread from the OP to the stream of consciousness to this last post. I love to see the data but I really love to see the results. In the end, I'll vote with my pocketbook. The good product and service will get my repeat business and kudos on a forum and the poor ones will get a dishonorable mention and not a penny more. Thanks to the OP for collecting the data and for starting this cool thread.
 
#57 ·
There is another aspect of packages that I don't quite understand. Some package sellers charge more for one shipped over pick up. Seen as high as double the prices but mostly around a 50% increase and you still have to pay for shipping charges. Why such a drastic increase in price for a shipped package over one thats picked up?

Disclaimer: No judgement being made just would like to be better informed. :)
 
#61 ·
Once again not speaking for others.....

Here are some of our reasons:

1. Most shipped packages (ups) are small orders which means more work per package: Less secretarial work. less labeling, less complaints in general BECAUSE THE BIG ORDER FOLKS TEND TO KNOW A LITTLE MORE WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

2. Higher risk involved when the packages are not cared for by the producer or the purchaser. (TIME IN TRANSIT ISSUES)

3. In order to keep our success rate high we custom build the shipping boxes with lots of amenities for both ventilation, damage prevention, and numerous other types of bee loss's
a. This is neither cheap from either a time or material expense comparison as opposed to the regular old "packages"

4. Our shipped price includes a nightly trip to visit the UPS planes in either Sacramento or Oakland. We hold on to them till they "have to leave"
No handing them over to a driver. This eliminates the losses in the truck, distribution center and the second truck going to the plane.

5. A dozen other reasons to long to list.


Shipped packages may or may not be more expensive in the big picture. They are certainly can be more convenient for the customer in many situations.

For those who need to drive 100 miles one way to pick up a small order our service through UPS is right on track when all your true costs are included. On the other hand: If you live in bee country and want 100 it would be insane to pay the expenses that UPS requires to get them there promptly.

Like everything else in life people must weigh the cost vs benefit vs risk assessment and go from there.
 
#58 ·
#59 ·
My mentor JN Russell sold packages and queens... I know how he did it, but have no idea if every package producer does it the same way. I do know though that if you did not like his packages you would never have to worry about buying another one... and still he had more orders than he could fill!
I don't know how many producers weigh their bees before packaging... but JN didn't. He used a small stainless wire box that slides into the bottom of a funnel. You shake the bees into the funnel until the small cage at the bottom was full.. as you slide in a new empty cage the full one comes out. The full cage is poured directly into the package box and queen/syrup inserted. The cage he used is the same cage he has always used. I never measured it, but assumed it was roughly 3 #'s of bees. It was a standard... didn't change... didn't need to change. Will every package weigh exactly the same? I doubt it. Will it matter? I doubt it.
But the thing about spending your hard earned money and getting ripped off.... if you REALLY think that getting 2.73 pounds of bees instead of the advertised 3# really matters to you.... don't buy from them anymore.
I know if I sold bees, I want happy customers ... I WANT them to be happy doing business with me. I will sell bees anyway the customers want them.... and I HOPE I am never accused of shortchanging anyone. I doubt however that I will weigh every package.... I will measure by a known volume that SHOULD be 3#'s.
Honestly... if you never sold packages or queens.... it is easy to criticize anything about what you buy... but if you don't like them, just buy from them anymore... simple.
Maybe there are unscrupulous packagers occasionally... but I dont think they represent a large number. People that sell inferior products end up out of business before too long. But from a sellers perspective.... a single customer cannot expect to get a whole lot of special treatment ... like many of them DO expect.
FWIW
 
#65 ·
I used one supplier ,my brother another. My packages weighed a little over or a little under 3 LBs. Weighing a flying insect, that is pretty impressive. His packages were visably closer to 4 lbs. I switched. Not because of the weight, it is the bee in the middle that matters. His queens were better.
I get packages are part of a sound business plan, they were never part of my hobby plan. My solution is simple to plan, harder to do; first, be a better beekeeper and then get a better bee.
 
#69 ·
A (probably premature) update on the 5 packages. As everyone mentioned, performance matters so much more than quantity. So I checked today to see if there was a good queen release (and if eggs were present). Out of 5 packages, all 5 successfully released their queens, and 3 appeared just fine overall. One had emergency cells, and few other eggs, suggesting that the queen was poor or not properly mated. Not definitive, of course. One showed no signs of eggs, queen, or anything. I gave that one a frame of eggs from an established hive to see how they do.

Time will tell, but if 40% had queen problems, not too happy so far.
 
#73 ·
In short, I don't know. They came from GA, and were provided through a middle man. When I asked the middle man where they came from (before I ordered), he told me "a producer in Georgia". He became uncomfortable, and somewhat defensive, when I asked what apiary. I think he suspected I was trying to steal his source or something. I don't know.

I was in a bind as my nuc provider backed out, and I had few options that late in the season.
 
#71 ·
I don't care so much about the exact weight, I for one order a 3 lb. package and know that the bees I wanted I got. It is all about the bee you want and be happy with their results.
It is hard to estimate if you have 3 lbs. or 3.2 lbs. out in the field.
I the supplier had to weigh each and every single package he would have to charge at least 50% more for the bees because of the time it would take to get 3 or 4 more bees in there for you.
And no I am not a bee supplier, just a novice BEEK!
 
#72 ·
I the supplier had to weigh each and every single package he would have to charge at least 50% more for the bees because of the time it would take to get 3 or 4 more bees in there for you.
I expect this is a joke.

The costs would increase to provide exact weights, no doubt. But one supplier on here already admitted that he purchased a scale that will get him within a range that's acceptable (and not .5 lbs short), at a cost of $1,200. How many packages does a producer make a year? If the going rate for packages is roughly $85, do you really think it will take that package producer $42.50 worth of EXTRA time to weight the package? Seriously? If he bought that $1,200 machine, do you think he would only sell 29 packages that year (and then the machine would break, requiring you to buy it again next year)?

If some are already weighing the packages, and are charging prices in the same range as those that are not, it proves that its possible to actually account for what you are selling, and not "eye balling" it.

We are also not talking about "3 or 4 more bees". There are 3,500 bees to a lb (on average). My packages were under weight by 6.1 oz (on average). Meaning each package was under by 1,300 bees (on average). That many bees is noticeable, especially to the trained eye, whether you are in the field or not.
 
#77 ·
Status update:

In the end, one queen ended up being a drone layer. Two others were superceded (one of which wouldn't lay at all, the other only put out a half a frame of eggs so the workers could overthrow her). After 3 months, these three hives are about 7-8 deep frames a piece.

Another package expanded into 20 deep frames, and appears fairly healthy.

The last package expanded into 20 deep frames and 10 medium frames, and tried to throw off a swarm yesterday (although I caught it and made a split instead).

So, one appears to be doing fantastic, one average, and three substantially sub-par. That, plus all the weights were low, won't be going back.
 
#78 ·
Your certianly entitled to go where you like!,, Looks to me like your math is off though, 3-29 to 6-1 is 2 months...... All suppliers had problems with queens this year..... I used bees from 3 different sources and queen issues were normal this year.... about 25% queen problems this year. The ones I installed on 3-28 75% or done with double deeps and into supers. a few are into the 2nd supers...
 
#80 ·
I installed my first bees this year, and they were packages from Olivarez. They were both nominally 3 lb each, but I did not weigh them. One was significantly heavier than the other and both were in excellent shape (5-10 dead bees in each, live bees in apparent good health). So, was one 'short' and the other on weight or above? Were both short or both above? In the end, since I am a hobbyist, it really doesn't matter to me. I received good bees that have built up well. The queens are laying very well.

Still, the OP brings up an interesting question, one that I was glad to read and which I had not considered. In any measurement, there is error. 3 lb on one scale may read as 3.1 lb on another and 2.9, 2.6, or even 3.4 on others. Add to that uncertainty the loss of weight through water loss (respiration, depends on temperature and humidity during transit) and there's yet another variable thrown in.

Why not perform an experiment? Fill a package, weigh it. Fill a milk jug with enough water to weigh the same as the package. Put the package in the garage or shed for 2 days, weigh it and the milk jug again on the same scale. I'll bet that there will be a loss of weight for the package.
 
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