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Brood breaks for mite control

22K views 45 replies 17 participants last post by  Amibusiness 
#1 ·
Does anybody have any scientific evidence that brood breaks in the hive has any significant value in the reduction of varoa mites. I know it is touted to be a tool in the treatment of mites but have not found this to be the case in the hives I keep. considering when a queen is removed that egg laying ceases for about 30 days the mites that hatch would become phoretic until the new queen starts producing brood and then its just back to business for the mites. So no increase in mites in that period but also no increase in bee's so are not back where we started 30 days ago.
Johno
 
#2 ·
Your points are well taken Johno. I have no scientific evidence that a simple interruption helps control varroa and it may do little unless you are at the same time reducing the population of your larger hives by making splits. A brood break when using cells is about a 3 week gap. It is going to expose pretty much all varroa (with the exception of some in drone brood) to a variable phoretic period of anywhere between a few hours up to 2 weeks. This certainly can't be a good thing for mite populations. I don't understand all the mechanics of what is going on in a brood break but I know large hives early in the season allowed to continue to grow without treatment fare far worse through the season than hives that we're made up as a 3 to 4 comb untreated nuc in the early spring. I just think its simple math relating to the exponential growth of varroa in a hive through a long season.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for your reply Jim, and I go along with creating many nuc's from a large hive will devide the mite poulation among the nuc's and with the many queens will soon out pace the growth of the mite population but at some point in the fall the brood poulations will slow and the mites will catch up so unless the bee's themselves slow down the mites or the beekeeper takes some sort of action the mites will win. So mmaybe splitting into nuc's is just a delaying action.
Johno
 
#4 ·
If it delays the mite population from reaching "critical mass" until after you have removed the honey crop then that in itself is a victory. That is what a brood break is intended to do, delay the reproduction so you have more mite free bees later in the year. At that point you can evaluate the mite loads and make a decision whether or not the mite loads are high enough to consider some sort of treatment.
 
#5 ·
now that i have a method for taking mite counts (alcohol shaker), my current plan is to take mite counts after the spring/summer harvest.

if i find a colony with high mites, (not sure what that is yet, but say > 4 mites/100 bees), the queen gets pinched.

most of the brood in the now queenless hive will be allowed to hatch, and i'll sugar dust them to get rid of the phoretic mites.

if i am still raising queens, the remains of that colony will be divided up into mating nucs.

if i am through raising queens, hopefully i'll have a promising nuc to combine with the 'treated' colony.
 
#15 ·
most of the brood in the now queenless hive will be allowed to hatch, and i'll sugar dust them to get rid of the phoretic mites.
And this is one of the biggest advantages of breaking the brood cycle. I am not a believer in routine PS treatments, but targeted PS treatments as squarepeg points out can be very helpful.
 
#7 ·
We don't have mites in Australia, but I would try moving the queen to different boxes in the hive.

Two ways:
1. Have three brood boxes and the move the queen between the bottom one and the top one every 3-4 weeks. When you move her also move the queen excluder above the bottom brood box or below the top brood box so she can't get into the middle box.

2. Have 2x2 story brood boxes right next to each other and move the queen between them every 3-4 weeks. Have supers centred above the two side by side boxes. It just means you need two bases and you need to make two half width roofs.

Matthew Davey
 
#9 ·
#10 ·
Thanks for the replies, but it appears we are only looking at untested theories as far as brood breaks are concerned. WE really need to investigate this further, in 2013 I will set aside a few hives and do some mite counts before and after brood breaks and see for myself what comes of it.
Johno
 
#12 ·
I think you are missing the point of the OP which is inquiring what mechanism actually increases the effect of a brood break beyond the simple delay in brood rearing. Think of it more as what a traffic light does to traffic when it goes red. Sure cars back up for a bit but does it actually reduce traffic. In the case of varroa, I believe there is an advantage but I cant prove it, perhaps its just rebuilding your bees into a smaller unit with smaller populations that gives you the biggest benefit. I can only say since we have begun such a program our mite numbers are lower and the quality of our bees has improved.
 
#14 ·
I did! I told my wife last night I wasn't going to get out of bed in the morning till 9:00! Been getting up too early the last week and then falling asleep in my recliner in the evening. I'm still too young for that! LOL Thanks for the heads up.
 
#17 ·
Absolutely, and the 3 week brood break followed by some sort of knockdown treatment is an effective way to control mites. A ps dusting, though, is only going to have a lot of effect if the bees can be fairly far removed from where the mites will ultimately end up when they are knocked down though. Powdered sugar is going to displace a lot of mites but may not ultimately kill very many though. Hopguard, OA, just to name a couple options would kill them if that is the route you choose. We are, however, straying from the OP who was wondering just how a simple brood break actually works to control varroa.
 
#18 ·
Once again thanks for the replies, To Michael and the mare and foal analogy I would ask that if the mare and foal are tick infested would the mare not foaling reduce the tick infestation? If we are considering mite treatment I would agree that after the removal of a queen creating a break would be an ideal time for treatment when there is no brood present.
Johno
 
#26 ·
I think it is accepted that brood break effect the mite population. There is good info on MDA Splitter site that shows mite populations and brood breaks.
http://www.mdasplitter.com/

The increase of a mortality rate or decrease of birth rates by a few percent either way can make the difference between extinction of a species. Right now the honey bee at best is holding its own. I believe feral bees are on the comeback. Maybe brood break after swarm season is a contributing factor. I will even bet that our beek practices such as treatments for bees that can’t survive on their own is hindering the feral bees by cross breed inferior bees with them.
When a brood break takes place the phoretic mites move into the last of the open brood, often 5 or 6 mites in one cell. This will kill the brood and halt mite reproduction. This will also happen again when egg laying starts up. During this time mites still die naturally. You just might not be the same results in a different location due to other factors. Humidity is a factor in mite growth percentages. Different genes have different mite tolerances. A break in brood in the winter combined with a break in spring/summer should knock down mites more. Mites also are seasonal with growth peaking in September. And there are factors we don’t even know about that affect the mite reproduction rates. Hives in one part of the country may take 3 years for mite to kill a hive and other parts may take 6 months.



I think I heard over 6 month, they can winter on the bees and out live the bees.
 
#21 ·
The first part of my working life was spent in an accounting office which taught me that I hate counting, and for that reason I avoid counting mites. I am hopeful that incorporating a brood break and keeping bees in 5 over 5 frame nucs will allow me to avoid worrying about mites.
I think that between Mike Palmers (MP) nuc method, and Mel Disselkoen's "Outbreeding the mite theory" is the sweet spot in maintaining an apiary free of mite treatments.
Mike's nucleus methods are well documented here, but Mel's are less so. The OP asked if there was any scientific evidence to support the brood break as a viable method of mite control, and in a nutshell I haven't seen any.
MP observes that his nucs don't need treating for mites but doesn't posit any theories as to why, and in addition to the nucs he overwinters colonies in 2 deeps and a medium (if memory serves).
Mel starts a fresh queen laying after June 22 from a split, and overwinters in a single here in the midwest. Roland overwinters in a single. I am overwintering the majority of my colonies in 5 over 5 frame nucs.
5 of my 18 nucs did not get a brood break this summer, and I am curious to see their survival rate as compared to my others that by spring will have endured two brood breaks - the one where their queen emerged and waited then mated and the other enforced by winter.
I haven't treated my production colonies for mites. I have 11/12 alive so far in 10 frame equipment. Yesterday it was -16F in the morning, and all my mites are phoretic. If my production colonies live I intend to take a leaf out of MP's book (please hurry up and write one) and use the best as a basis for nuc making. I will consider surviving production colonies a bonus, otherwise I think of them as caretakers of comb for next years splits.
I will throw out another complimentary theory here that comes from processing the anecdotal evidence from the extensive experience of MP, Mel, and Roland. What if the answer is what the bees tell as when they want to swarm? They want a cavity the size of a single deep. They want this volume because it is the size that they have evolved to overwinter in most successfully, and, for undetermined reasons, this volume best suits the bee and the numbers therein least suit the mites.
 
#22 ·
Perhaps this is a crazy idea but what would happen if one did the following for a mite infested hive.

1. Remove all the brood comb and freeze it.
2. While the comb is freezing, treat the hive with oxalic acid vapor.

It would seem that type of brood break would greatly reduce mite populations if not elliminate them.

Tony
 
#23 ·
>Sure cars back up for a bit but does it actually reduce traffic.

Traffic is not the same thing. Cars are not having babies. During the "red light" the Varroa are not reproducing. Most people doing a brood break are making a break of at least three to four weeks and that is three to four weeks that the Varroa are not reproducing. That is a lot less mites.
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
True, bad analogy on my part. The crux of the thread, though, is if there is something more at play during a brood break that complicates varroa reproduction rather than a simple delay for the period of time in which there is no larvae of the proper age for mites to infest.
 
#25 ·
Tony that is the theory about frames of drone comb, mites are supposed to prefer drone cells over worker cells. I dont know the ratio you would find between mites in drone cells and worker cells, but the freezing of capped drone cells is another recomended practice.
 
#28 ·
Maybe it is accepted by some that brood breaks effect mite population, but a theory is not accepted until proven and I have not seen any lierature that lays out the proof of this. I have not seen any results of mite counts before and after brood breaks so I tend to remain skeptical. Bearing in mind that the mites breed at a ratio of at least 2:1 so Mels theory works when you continue splitting hives into nuc's and therefore stay ahead of the mite breeding curve like a ponzi setup sooner or later the mites will catch up unless something else plays a part.
Johno
 
#29 ·
Johno: Perhaps you would want to lay out the specifics of what you tried. Time of year, length of break, length of brooding season, size of hives, estimated mite loads at the time you began etc., did you do it to all the hives in a given location or just some?
 
#30 ·
Jim,I I started 2012 with 9 hives and for swarm prevention when swarm cells appeared in March through july the queen and some bee's were removed and hived in nuc's thi happened with 7 hives, the other 2 were packages that grew fast and swarmed.I caught them and hived them in August. They were the first hives I treated with formic acid and a fume board with large mite drops. theoretically there mite loads should have been relatively light after the brood break. I have been Requeening hives with Daughters from my carni queen and also from a VP spartan queen so there have been brood breaks in my hives throughout the year. Unfotunately I have not been sampling bee's for mite loads, and by seeing evidence of mites have been treating with formic acid and counting the mite fall. however I think I am going to hve to sample mite loads before and after any thing that I do and document the results to reach a conclusion as to what works or not. I must admit that I do not accept some of the stories that abound unless it is a proven theory, must be my suspicious nature or as Americans say just plain ornery
Johno
 
#33 ·
Jim,I I started 2012 with 9 hives and for swarm prevention when swarm cells appeared in March through july the queen and some bee's were removed and hived in nuc's
This type of break does not permit a true broodless period and therefore would not be as effective as a true 28 day broodless period. You're saying that you made splits with queen cells that were already present, which means that you might have a laying queen in roughly 16 days. You would still have plenty of capped brood at the end of this period. When I attempt to induce a broodless period I make a cut-down split and make sure there are no queen cells present at the time of the split. You can either allow the colony to produce a queen or when sufficient time has passed introduce a cell. In VA the ideal time to make this brood break is in early June once the main spring flow has ended.
 
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