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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Jasper, Georgia
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Ok, so I have a little emergency langstroth style deep brood hive ready to go, and they are still hanging off of the hive in a swarm pile. Here are one pics from 30 mins ago:
    20170420_195040.jpg20170420_195050.jpg20170420_195053.jpg
    The hive I have them in now is absolute crap, and I've given up on it. I'll scrap it and use it for more langstroths. How do I effectively retrieve this swarm without severely pissing them off and missing the queen?

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    257

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Make sure to use smoke.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    1,558

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    If all the bees are out side in that cluster (which looks nice sized), I would put two drops of lemon grass oil on the bottom back of your lang hive, I would slide the top of your other hive to where a big portion of the bees are over the lang and then give it a good shake to where as many bees as you can get fall in the hive. I would then set the top aside and if the hive body is light enough to do the same thing, I would do it. If it is too heavy, I would slide it to the side of the tire over a five gallon bucket and try to bang them into the bucket and then dump them in the hive. Then put your frames in the hive with out killing to many bees and then stand back and watch what the bees do. Maby put the cover half on. If you see a bunch of bees raising thier buts in the air on the edge of the lang, most will probly fly in. If they fly out and regether on your hive, that is probly where the queen is. I probly would not use smoke while doing this but if you had a squirt bottle that you could put some sugar water in to spray on them before shaking them, It might help keep them from flying so much and busy cleaning each other and help keep them from nailing you.

    There will be a lot of bees in the air. Maby after you squirt them with sugar water, give them a minute or two to clean on each other before shaking them.

    If can slide the lid and get a bunch in the hive but can't slide the old hive for the rest, It might be enough to intice them in on there own. You should be able to tell which way they are going by how many bees are on the edge of the box you are putting them in are raising thier tails in the air and seeing if the rest are getting smaller. Worst case is you will have to scrape them in something and move them. I do think a couple drops of lemon grass oil in the box you are putting them in will help. Too many drops will hurt.
    Good luck
    gww

    Ps If you can just slide the top over the lang, there might be enough bees that drop in to intice the others on the side of the hive to fly in on thier own.

    The sugar water is to slow thier flying a bit and to maby make them full and happy. I am so lazy that I would probly try it with out the sugar water but I didn't get stung a bunch by those bees already.
    zone 5b

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Kirksville, Missouri USA
    Posts
    1,092

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Get them in a hive before they leave. That's a good cluster of bees.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Marshall county, AL
    Posts
    2,879

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    If the guy you got them from has langstroth hives, see if he will give or sell you one frame of open brood. If so, put it in the langstroth hive that you built, put it all on top of that top bar hive and the bees will walk right into the langstroth.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Jasper, Georgia
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Well, armed with my sugar water, a makeshift beesuit, and a whole lot of courage, I got most of them into a square sterilite container. About 3/4ths of them. Mostly from the center of that cluster. Then I ran over to the langstroth, pulled out a couple
    frames, and dumped most of that cluster into the bottom of the langstroth. Quite a few of them were on top of the frames, as I closed the lid. I'm pretty sure I crushed quite a few of them as I was closing the lid, but they were beginning to dive bomb me and hang on in an attempt to sting. I got one minor sting, nothing major. Soo, I really hope I got that queen into the new hive, and I really, really hope I didn't accidentally crush the queen. Oh God. So much anticipation right now. I'll be back over there at 8am to check and see what they are up too. To put in a nut shell as of to why I gave up on the top bar, it was simply full of gaps and too large. I can't blame them for not liking it. I didnt, that's for sure. This "langstroth-style" (and I say "style" because it is totally makeshift) is much more appropriate, perfect size, pitch black inside, and only two little holes I drilled to create entrances. The frames are foundationless, 17 inches long, 9 inches tall, and 1 and a half inches wide.
    So, to close, as of now, my number one fear is that I squished the queen. If I missed her, I would assume that her girls will leave the langstroth and ball up over her again on the TBH. I would assume that the queen is typically towards the very center of a cluster, is that assumption true?

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    1,558

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Beebomb
    Good luck.
    gww
    zone 5b

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Then I ran over to the langstroth
    you want the new hive as close as you can to the old hive
    The frames are foundationless, 17 inches long, 9 inches tall, and 1 and a half inches wide.
    going to give you problems. too wide... deal with it once they are settled and you have brood to anchor them, let them settle for now

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    1,558

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Beebomb
    To msl's point, I built all my stuff using the plans here.
    http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/
    Good luck
    gww
    zone 5b

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Jasper, Georgia
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    @gww and @msl, Like I said, it's far from perfect, but it was the only decent thing I could whip up fast enough to get them in something quick. And I appreciate the plans, that will definitely help for once I have the cash to pick up some better lumber.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Jasper, Georgia
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Btw, in the cluster I posted pics of, would it be typical for the queen to be towards the center of that cluster? And if so, would she be literally in the middle, like bee-on-bees? Or would she be at the bottom clinging to the surface the cluster is attached to?

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Jasper, Georgia
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Oh, and I should have specified, the new hive is no more than 5 feet from the old one.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    1,558

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Beebomb
    I have not much more experiance then you. I have watched a bunch of youtube vidios. I am thinking that she could be anywhere in the cluster and probly moves around. If it is any consulation, I think the queen is the easyest bee to dislodge when shaking. I also could be wrong but think you should have left the lid a little bit open because that is where the bees were closest to and it might take them a bit to find the entrance. I don't think it is worth worrying about now, tommorrow morning should tell the story. If the queen is not in the box, they will probly gether back where they were and you will get to do it again.

    If you see some bees at the old place but most stay in the box, I bet you have her but you could always go and look at what is on the old hive just in case. I think some will still gether there and it might take a couple of days for them to get used to where the hive is. They might for a couple days fly to the top bar and then to the lang as a habit but it will probly work out.

    You will know more in the morning. As far as the plans go. I made my first hives with every free board I could find laying around from other projects and raided some of dads barn wood. Mine are pretty junky also but you will be better off if you could build them to standard demensions for incase you buy some professional ones, they will work together and you don't have to continually do a cut out over and over every time you need to add room.

    I hope this helps in some way.
    gww
    zone 5b

  14. #54
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Monticello, Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    95

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Good lord you sound like my clone fellow student youth What has the education system taught us? When we cant memorize it word for word, wing it. Bend the rules, probably break some, go with the flow and pray you got at least a passing grade. There's a lot of good stuff in here but in the heat of the moment just be ready to act. In your free time browse the forums or some good places like Bush Farms. I promise the practical exams the bees will dish out are a lot easier than some crap my professor try to pull in Chemistry! I'm only into my second year so here's my little bit to offer: mind your pests. You do have them. Apivar is real nice and easy to use. Hive beetles are obnoxious but a couple of beetle blasters or a Freeman Beetle Trap bottom board ought to do it.
    A hive in the yard, a sting in the foot, and a little lass sold to tens of thousands little furry insects. How absurd!

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,612

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    With that many bees I would not dare to deviate from the standard. This is an area that I will not even though I've experimented with
    different hive style and frames before. Without a standard hive and frames they will build comb and propolized everywhere. Do you factor in the bee space first? You are lucky that they still stick around. Give them some standard equipment to make everybody's life easier.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Kirksville, Missouri USA
    Posts
    1,092

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    I would get the rest of the bees into the hive this morning if they are still there. Take each piece of the top bar hive and walk it over to the lang with the lid open and shake/bang them off into the open lang. Then get rid of the top bar hive from the location. You can walk away leaving the lid open for the bees to figure it out for a while.

    With too wide frames, you can expect that the bees will build combs spaced a bit closer than 1 1/2", which means IF they start in the middle of one frame, as they go to the next frame, it could be 1/8" off center of the frame. The next one could be 1/4" off the center of the frame, etc. It will get messy. They may even just build comb perpendicular to the frames and really make a mess. If you don't have a key down the middle of the top bar, worse yet. That big of a swarm will build comb very fast and it would be hard to keep up with it if it doesn't go too well. If they stay, and make a mess of the comb in there, work to get a second box that's the right size and just put it on top and let them grow into it. You can always take control and get rid of the first box later if you are unable to get the comb right. Maybe they will build comb just right for you.

    Your 9" foundationless new comb will be extremely fragile to the point if you hold the frame anything but strait up and down, the comb can break off and fall to the ground. Once they tie it to the sides and bottom it will be better.

    You are in the middle of a crash course in beekeeping. Keep at it and learn along the way and you will have some valuable lessons learned.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    Framed hives require precise dimensions, throwing something together leads to lots of problems. I say this as fact, not a judgment, your doing what you can with what you have.
    to any other readers who might find them selfs in the same spot, I would suggest a Tanzanian style TB hive ( box with strait sides) that match the OG hive top bars as a quick fix.

    another and possibility better option would be a Comfort style( Warreish) box hive, each section is just four 1x6x12 and some thin cut top bars or bamboo skewers. The rest for the bars is just 2 wooden strips attached to the inside. you could bang a few boxs together out of cupple of fence pickets
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tN90jDml44
    The main advantage here is the smaller (11"ish) top bar alows you to zip tie/wire it to the topbar of a lang frame or KTBH if you wish to convert later so you keep your options open

    to the OP... you have them in a box, leave them, deal with the problems down the road once they (and you) have settled

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Jasper, Georgia
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    @beepro, Perhaps you missed my earlier paragraphs. I appreciate your opinion, but if I could afford to use standard equipment, don't you think I would have? I spoke with a friend who kept hives for quite a few years, and he suggested I just get something crude but acceptable immediately, or they would leave. Basically, he said that if I take a drink cooler, and jerry-rig it to be "langstroth style", that it would work temporarily. My whole goal for right now is to keep them from leaving, and if they make a mess out of it, I will deal with it later. This is what the scene looks like this morning, pics from about 20 mins ago:
    20170421_110511.jpg20170421_110500.jpg20170421_110510.jpg
    I know, some of you are going to hate me for this. It's the best I could do yesterday. It has even sized frames, it's waterproof, only two small entrances (easy to defend), is pitch black on the inside, and is about perfect size. Soo, after doing a transfer like this, from one hive to another, does this appear to be a usual response? As you can see in these photos, they are on both at this point. One thing that I noticed, that gave me hope for this craziness, was that the bees were going in and out of the entrance of their "langstroth" with pretty good frequency. Is that a good sign? Btw, I don't intend to have them in this d*nm disgrace to hives everywhere for long. Just 2 or three weeks, max. Then I will get them into something better, one way or another.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Lancaster Co PA USA
    Posts
    12

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    best way to learn is to do things . And you are doing things. Thats good keep it up . Looks like fun Lol. Enjoy your bees

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    1,558

    Default Re: THEY ARE MAD! New guy here

    beebomb
    Is it hot where you have the bees? If it is too hot you might have to rig up some shade. To me the cluster looks about the same and so there can not be many bees in side the cooler. Does it look that way to you? I believe I would put a popcycle stick or a couple of quarters and prop the lid of the cooler up enough to let some air in even if it let light in. Some of the old books say that a swarm won't stay if the hive you are putting them in is two hot. Once they are in it is a differrent story because they get organized and then cool the hive with fanning. You have to find a way to get them in and working first. Just so you know, I admit to not having a lot of experiance.

    If it was me, I think I would give them another squirt of sugar water just to keep them busy with each other while I thought of what I was going to do next. Do you have any lemon grass oil? It is a couple of bucks but walmart might sell it in the pharmacey.

    You do not have you bees locked down yet. The only way that your pictures would show any success is if as many bees where in the hive as are out of it. Then it would just be a case of the hive not being big enough. I do not think the swarm is that big. Something is stopping them from accepting what you are giving them. during day light, I don't see that much wrong with your long hive except a screened bottom and maby being devided making it small or hot.

    I don't know how to tell to win this game and only can give things to try.
    Good luck
    gww
    zone 5b

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