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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Marshall county, AL
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    2,897

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Oh honestly. When will this rubbish end.
    The day after screened bottom boards stop being produced.

    People believe what they want to believe and dismiss evidence that doesn't agree with their opinions. Lunacy is what I call it. That and puffing their chest out to make themselves look important. There are those whose opinion should be viewed as fact. Yours would be one of them IMO, and there are those who's opinion should be viewed as them spouting off half baked ideas, intended to make themselves look important. There are about 50 of them for every one of your type. We've got no shortage of the later on beesource. So many in fact that when I recommend new beekeepers that I personally know to read beesource, I give them a disclaimer about the chest thumpers.
    The more I learn about bees, the less I know.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,166

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Looks like no one is paying attention to this fact. Too bad.
    You did. (I'm sure others are. Smart folks are often quiet. It's more the irony that interests me.)
    David

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Chardon, Ohio
    Posts
    525

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Who is the author of this chapter?



    Can you please give reference to these European measurements? It looks to me like most of these are European.

    http://beesource.com/point-of-view/d...-of-cell-size/
    "ABC and XYZ" has one chapter for each letter of the alphabet. The original was written by A.I. Subsequent editions were edited by E. R, Root LL. D., H. H. Root and J. A. Root. All were dead by lthe 1972 version which was edited by various unidentified consulting editors. All original scientific references are archived at both the Univ of Wisc at Madison and Cornell.

    The only current paper that deals with historical cell size measurments and does the math so you get the correct answers is:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...istorical_data

    This paper exams exactly the same data Lusby used to claim small cells were natural and completely debunks her ideas on historical cell size measurements.

    It is worth noting that the paper that triggered this thread about small cell size bees actually having larger mite counts than bees on natural cell size comb is not the first scientific publication to show this. It is a puzzle to me why cell size would have any impact of the % mite counts. I see no obvious reason unnatural small cells should either result in more or less mites than normal natural cell size bees. But, the experiment replicates so it must be true. I am sure the Gurus will tell us shortly why both studies are wrong. Also why the above referenced study is wrong on converting historical data to modern measurements. And how Root totally blew the observations he made on what cell sizes bees actually prefer.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,166

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Looks like no one is paying attention to this fact. Too bad.
    Things can get interesting and complicated when they are multifactoral or, more properly, multi-consequential. I don't know if this study looked at the long term effect of cell size on the length of the bees' capped pupation period, which some have credibly suggested may affect reproductive success of varroa in the cell.
    David

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    51,897

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    I pointed out, several years ago, that if Dee Lusby's psuedodrone theory is true, then you would expect the mite population in a small cell hive to have an entirely different curve than on large cell. The mites would be most successful in a small cell hive in early spring because they would be reproducing almost entirely in drone cells. Later as drone cells decrease they would be less successful causing the population in summer to drop and by fall to be quite low. That would fit what I see on my trays on the hives with screened bottoms as far as less and less mites as fall approaches rather than what I saw with large cell where the number skyrocketed in the fall.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheor...l Cell Studies
    Last edited by Michael Bush; 04-17-2017 at 12:17 PM. Reason: fixed link
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    957

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Clean View Post
    University of Georgia article, "Small Cell Foundation And Varroa Mites" found mite infestation of small cell hives at 46.6%, which was much higher than the 5.2mm cell with infestation of 27.7%.

    http://caes2.caes.uga.edu/bees/perso.../Berry1109.pdf
    I was looking at those numbers, read the paper and realized they referred to the proportion of mites that was in the brood vs adult bees.

    Did I read correctly that the mites counts never did rise all that much in the study and that no treatment was done, staying within local thresholds?

    Could it be that these bees had other mechanisms in place for controlling mites? I also noticed that it was 5.2 vs 4.9 comparison (please correct me if I'm wrong), but wouldn't a more appropriate comparison be 5.4 vs 4.9?

    I am totally agnostic about the affect of small or natural cell. I have mostly natural comb in my TF hives, and really am so far clueless as to why some hives are successful and others are not. I have some suspicions that basic mechanisms for mite control are in place for many colonies and success has more to do with adaptation with local viral environments, but am willing to be persuaded otherwise with time and more information as I go down this path.

    I think it is safe that bees have multiple mechanisms for mite/virus resistance and if small cell is useful, it may only be useful for some bees with the right genetics. If this is the case, then a more subtle experiment is needed where small cell bees with the supposed genetics, are placed on large cell foundation to see if they do worse. Or perhaps a better study would be to take typical bees, put them on small vs regular cell, leave them TF and see the trajectories of the respective apiaries with regard to survival, genetics, mite control and virus resistance. Is there divergence in mite/virus strategies over time between the 2 groups?

    I also wonder a bit about the disruptions we subject bees too and we expect them to roll with it within a single season. It may result in subtle but statistically significant differences between groups. The question is whether these differences are a result of what we are trying to measure, or a result of some disruption.

    So I remain skeptical but open minded on the concepts being debated, but also the experiments (and this is not a slag on the good efforts of scientists) that try to parse these out. Good ecology is difficult. Long term work is much better as short term work can be mostly noise.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,166

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    Good ecology is difficult.
    "It's not easy being green." Kermit
    David

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Central Alabama, Shelby County
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    "All lies and jest
    Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
    And disregards the rest"
    Paul Simon

    Setting all of the bruised egos aside, you can find a study/theory to support any opinion. The bottom line is what happens in the backyard.

    Twelve years large cell, 5th year TF small cell, there are a few mites out there but they are limited, no loss of a production hive in over 3 years. That is what really counts

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM, U.S.
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    I read a bit of the "small cell" theory and enjoyed it, to the point that my next cut-out (yes these were natural comb bees) was put on small cell wax foundation.

    It took them a couple weeks before they drew it out- I think they didn't like it.
    Now when I do mite rolls, they are 'always' right in the middle for counts.

    Bottom line to me- I still have to treat for mites on small cell. But do I dare use these combs in any other hive? cant' pull brood for nucs, etc.

    fwiw- I do not plan on ever going down the small cell path again-

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Germany, BW
    Posts
    851

    Default Re: Study: Small Cell does not reduce Varroa mite infestation; it can increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoor N8 View Post
    I read a bit of the "small cell" theory and enjoyed it, to the point that my next cut-out (yes these were natural comb bees) was put on small cell wax foundation.

    It took them a couple weeks before they drew it out- I think they didn't like it.
    Now when I do mite rolls, they are 'always' right in the middle for counts.

    Bottom line to me- I still have to treat for mites on small cell. But do I dare use these combs in any other hive? cant' pull brood for nucs, etc.

    fwiw- I do not plan on ever going down the small cell path again-
    Did you measure the cell size in your natural comb?

    How long did u use sc? Did you regress step by step?

    When did u introduce sc? What time of year? What place in the hive?

    What did u use? Plastic, Wax?

    Why are u not able to use this in another hive? Do you have different systems?
    Listen to good advice, then.... make your own decision. fusion_power
    www.vivabiene.de

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