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  1. #381
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    The Virus argument is a hollow one often used by bonders. We are not treating for viruses (mainly cause we can't), there for by bond theory they will be bonded out Hives with extra mites didn't make it in the study pops, regardless if they were more virus tolerant or not. It would seem the genetic cost of mite resistance is less then that of virus tolerance.. IE less vectors and they don't need the higher tolerance. Mite resistance is virus resistance and if you are resistant, tolerance takes a back seat and may be an unnecessary expense. Nature does not reward those who spend unnecessary resources.
    +1
    If I remember well the conversation I had with John Kefuss when I bought him queens about two and a half years ago he never seemed to be focused on viruses. The mites seemed to me to be their focus.

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  3. #382

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    +1
    If I remember well the conversation I had with John Kefuss when I bought him queens about two and a half years ago he never seemed to be focused on viruses. The mites seemed to me to be their focus.
    How are Kefuss bees doing ?
    TF since 2008, max 1 nuc/hive, no swarm collecting, www.buckfast.fi, YouTube juhanilunden

  4. #383
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    Sybille my point is simply this: in this case the scientists concluded in a way not coincident with the interests of their financiers. I am sure that other cases will exist that make your general statement that I quote from you incorrect and unfair.
    I don´t think I´m unfair, I´m just a sceptic. I´m using science too, I use the studies as a tool. And why not? They can´t be religion. Every other year there is more to the results, something new or different added.

    I would like to hear about Kefuss queens too. How do they perform in your environment? Did you treat those colonies?

    I will meet Kefuss and Juhani in April in Austria, it seems. I look forward to the speakings!
    zone 8a, sc, dadant square, wax comb, tf, 4 years beekeeping
    www.vivabiene.de

  5. #384
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Hi Sybille and Juhani!

    I purchased the virgin queens in May 2015 that were introduced into pre-orphaned nucs. The colonies with hybrid bees daughters of these queens in February 2016 had varroas visible and in some of them I saw DW syndrome. I treated these colonies.

    With regard to production in 2016 in general they produced less than the local ecotype of bees (a.m. iberiensis).

  6. #385

    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    Hi Sybille and Juhani!

    I purchased the virgin queens in May 2015 that were introduced into pre-orphaned nucs. The colonies with hybrid bees daughters of these queens in February 2016 had varroas visible and in some of them I saw DW syndrome. I treated these colonies.

    With regard to production in 2016 in general they produced less than the local ecotype of bees (a.m. iberiensis).
    Do you have untreated Kefuss bees?
    What are the mite levels?
    Did you do inseminations/controlled matings to get more pure "Kefuss"?
    TF since 2008, max 1 nuc/hive, no swarm collecting, www.buckfast.fi, YouTube juhanilunden

  7. #386
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    I am bummed to here that

    One more case for IMP I suppose. The message of "buy better stock next time" is a little emty, hard to think of a better starting point the Kefuss' stock....

    but that bring us to this weeks study The Pan-European Genotype-Environment-Interactions Experiment
    http://www.coloss.org/the-gei-experiment/

    621 hives, 16 strains of bees (commercial stock), 21 locations in 11 countrys, all kept TF to see what would happen. There is a lot of content here, so here are some cliff notes
    84.3% losses in 2.5 years
    only 38.4% were from mites
    The strain local to the area lasted an advrage of 83 days longer despite being at statistical the same mite infestations
    location matters, the hives placed at Avignon lived an advrage of 711 days, outher places didn't fair any were near as well. as a note for SiWolKe the German sites didn't fair to bad either, Kirchhain 597 days, Mönchgut 661 days Schenkenturm 413 days.
    "management decisions based upon hard data.The easiest person in the world to fool is oneself"- Randy Oliver

  8. #387
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    I could not access the article proper because the Journal of Apicultural Research is behind a paywall. I would be interested to discover why less than 1/2 the colony deaths were mite related. Over here anyway, the only thing that kills colonies that is not really the beekeepers fault is if the queen dies mid winter and the replacement has no drones to mate with. Anything else that kills hives such as starvation, etc, can be mitigated by the beekeeper if the hive is being properly cared for.
    I'm also not sure how they can give cut and dried figures as to x percentage died from mites and x percentage died from something else. Because my experience is the line is blurred. Often when a hive dies of something that was not mites, it was mites that weakened the hive and was the major factor in bringing about the other thing that killed the hive. So a hive that died for example of attack by wasps, may have done so because it was weakened by mites, and would not have done so if it never had any mites.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  9. #388
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    copy paste the title of the individual peer reiviewed studys of the program in to goggle and you can find free access sites
    ie put in
    The influence of genetic origin and its interaction with environmental effects on the survival of Apis mellifera L. colonies in Europe
    and this is you 2nd hit
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...IBRA.1.53.2.03
    They biased the mite losses on mouthy mite counts...I too felt the number was low
    Last edited by msl; Yesterday at 12:17 PM.
    "management decisions based upon hard data.The easiest person in the world to fool is oneself"- Randy Oliver

  10. #389
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Coloss.org is Peter Neumann, agroscope liebefeld.

    A quote out of an interview:
    Where are we currently facing the problem of Varroa mite, which has swept away countless bee colonies?
    In Switzerland, all honey bee colonies are infected with it. It is a vector, a gateway for viruses, much like certain mosquitoes transmit the malaria parasite. For a quarter of a century, unsuccessful attempts have been made to breed bees that are tolerant to this pathogen. Something is wrong. By natural selection, however, there are colonies who can cope with the pathogen and survive. The Asian honey bee has also learned to live with it. We need to research the traits for this resistance. Bee dying is often the result of several factors: the bees do not find good food, have a diarrhea, and then the beekeeper may go on vacation at the wrong time.
    So now they actually start the research to find out what really happens.
    zone 8a, sc, dadant square, wax comb, tf, 4 years beekeeping
    www.vivabiene.de

  11. #390
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Do you have untreated Kefuss bees?
    Not now, given the results I reported.

  12. #391
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I'm also not sure how they can give cut and dried figures as to x percentage died from mites and x percentage died from something else. Because my experience is the line is blurred. Often when a hive dies of something that was not mites, it was mites that weakened the hive and was the major factor in bringing about the other thing that killed the hive. So a hive that died for example of attack by wasps, may have done so because it was weakened by mites, and would not have done so if it never had any mites.
    I'm not sure how cut and dried figures could be arrived at either. But to me it seems it could be a 2 way street. Mites might weaken hives so it succumbs to other factors, or other factors may weaken hives so it succumbs to mites. For instance, how much energy would a small hive under extreme robbing pressure have to combat mites as well? There is only so much energy to go around and stress of one sort or another would start to add up.

  13. #392
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    The case for sweeping viruses under the rug as of little concern is very premature. We have only a poor resolution understanding of them.

    The example of tf bees having troubles in new environments means something is different and a good candidate is that the pathogen environment is different from the old one. Since viruses and mites are tied together at the hip, it makes sense that a sudden loss of mite resistance may not be do to mite resistance but viral.

    I mentioned before that I talked to a sheep ranger. She told me that they would bring in some new genetics every so often. The animals were in wonderful shape when they arrived, but would soon degrade. But they made sure they got lambs out of them, and the lambs would do much better. She thought that they were used to a different nutritional regime and couldn't adapt. When she had to buy feed, they had to be careful of its source (non irrigated preferred) as the sheep would start to suffer otherwise. Bees are likely to have similar issues. You can get around it by creating bees that are indiscriminate with queens that lay lots of eggs regardless and focus solely on honey production. But you have to treat. The other route is to stay with locally adapted bees, so they have most of the bases covered and have the energy to deal with mites without treatment.

  14. #393
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    Default Re: A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as the path to TF for new ba

    Iharder
    The example of tf bees having troubles in new environments means something is different and a good candidate is that the pathogen environment is different from the old one. Since viruses and mites are tied together at the hip, it makes sense that a sudden loss of mite resistance may not be do to mite resistance but viral.
    I just watched a trees for bees vidio today where the guy made simular cases for trees. That maples grow good in michigan and florada but a florada maple would not do good in michigan and vice versa even though they were the same tree.

    I would swear that he said the same about a differrent tree that when planted would die almost every time but then suckers from it would do better. I think he was talking redbud on that tree.

    I don't even know if this fits your point but it came to my head cause I seen it just today.

    One other comment that I can't remember who to attribute it to was that even before mites, long term beekeepers would have big ebs and flows of hive deaths with some years being almost catastrophic. I have read several life lines of virouses that get hot and then run thier course and kinda die off. I don't think having virusses pop up is that much of an out of line thing to happen and for them to fade into the back ground also happens. On a differrent thread they are talking they parilize virus that is worse then the stuff that usually does not kill a hive and I saw randy oliver refer to it also today on a vidio and for now it seems to be something that will have to run its course and there is expectation that it probly will. I do not see how mite vectored virus would be differrent though I know they can go either way, IE get worse and die out or just get worse.
    Cheers
    gww
    zone 5b

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