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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Squarepeg - no. we where not tested.

    Crazy Roland

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Squarepeg - no. we where not tested.
    understood roland, thanks for the reply.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Hey Squarepeg - I downloaded and read the research paper from PLos. Would you like a translation and opinion?

    Crazy Roland

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Hey Squarepeg - I downloaded and read the research paper from PLos. Would you like a translation and opinion?
    is milwaukee the beer capital of the world? heck ya roland, what's your take?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #25
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    Dec 2008
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    OK.

    They did alot of work, but not much of it is applicable. Too much reliance on "Whiz-bang" machines instead of sweat in the bee yard. That said, they raised more questions than answers. It IS a matter that needs close monitoring.

    I will try to translate their conclusion tomorrow.

    Crazy Roland

    P.S. Beer? the currency of barter in this part of the world.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    First, I would like everyone to turn to page 363 in this month's ABJ and read Jerry Hayes opinion. Then, here goes with my OPINION:

    I will confess than I amnot current with all of the "Whiz-bang" machines, so I look for discrepancies in data I do know. The first was when they looked at the genetic code and found it shared patterns with Galleria mellonella, which they called the "honey comb moth". Although technically correct, we all know this creature as a wax moth. Interesting....

    There may be an unexploited clue in that wax moths may be the vector for this STRAIN of gammaproteobacteria.

    Jerry claims this bacertia is not new, whereas I interpret the paper to say that this STRAIN is new.

    The following is my transcription of the conclusion in the paper, credited to Burritt et.al. with my notes in parenthesis:

    "We report the isolation and characterization of the novel(new) Ss1 bacterium from the hemolymph(like blood) of diseased honey bees(Why the use of an adjective?) presenting(with) evidence of decreased cellular immunity(they where under attack). Ss1 was also isolated(found) from a subset(not all of them) of V. destructor(mites) cohabiting with septic(sick) bees.
    We linked this infection to wintertime failure of hives in western Wisconsin(land of the cheeseheads), but did not establish a causation of hive failure to this bacterium(could not prove bacterium made bees die, just that dying bees had more bacterium than healthy bees). Additional studies are needed to elucidate the transmission and impact of Ss1 within the complex environment of the hive(true that)."

    I agree with Jerry in that if a bee is in the process of dying, you would expect to see the vultures circling, and this bacterium may be just setting up shop before the curtain is all the way down.

    They totally missed Koch's postulate. Please go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates

    They should have , and tried and failed, to reintroduce the bacterium to healthy bees. They have a vector at hand, the mite. They could have introduced infected mites to transmit the bacterium. Without the fulfillment of Koch's postulate, the paper is not worth much.

    We did learn that it is likely that the mite is a vector, as is the wax moth. This reinforces the view that it is important to control all possible detrimental forces to the hive.

    Crazy Roland

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    It is only fair to point out that the team did try to apply Koch's Postulate, but were cold-anaesthetizing the bees, which all died as a consequence. And in their conclusion states quite openly that more work has to be done, emphasis mine:

    "Question on Causation

    We attempted to apply Koch’s Postulates to confirm the pathogenic potential of Ss1 in live honey bees. This was done by inoculating hemolymph directly in live bees to determine whether Ss1 could experimentally replicate natural infection and disease in test subjects. However, because of high mortality in honey bees from cold-anesthetization, we were unable to utilize experimental methods to achieve this goal. Therefore, our results contrast a recent report [61] utilizing cold-anesthetized honey bees as an infection model of bacterial sepsis. At this time, we are not aware of other reports that describe experimental injection of adult worker honey bee hemolymph to establish sepsis caused by honey bee pathogens. Despite association of Ss1 with disease, death, and winterkill in honey bees, our studies do not provide causal evidence for Ss1 in hive failure. Consequently, we cannot rule out other factors in associated bee maladies.

    Conclusion

    We report the isolation and characterization of the novel Ss1 bacterium from the hemolymph of diseased honey bees presenting evidence of decreased cellular immunity. Ss1 was also isolated from a subset of V. destructor cohabitating with septic bees. We linked this infection to wintertime failure of hives in western Wisconsin, but did not establish causation of hive failure to this bacterium. Additional studies are needed to elucidate the transmission and impact of Ss1 within the complex environment of the hive."

    I would have been happier if publication by this team had been done after more of the unanswered questions were answered. And it is unfortunate that poor reporting has made this investigation sound like a new killer bacterium is on the loose....which may be true but the jury is still out. Way out.

    It will be interesting to see what further work tells us. For now, reason to be interested but not too concerned. Link to paper, repeated here.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    many thanks roland for presenting your take on the findings. i think you summed it up nicely.

    are you still seeing the occasional yard with problems and if so are you any closer to figuring out what's happening with those?

    i believe at last mention you were leaning toward toxins from the environment.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #29
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    True that, Wilson. It seems they went off half cocked.

    If I where to gamble a wild guess, this pathogen might compare to Pneumonia in humans. No health humans contract it. Something else weakens you, and then you get Pneumonia a die.
    It may be a pesticide that does the weakening, and I hope it is tested for.

    Squarepeg - we lost a couple yards before fall. Worse than the year before. Expect 20 percent survival. Did not do any research yet, but plan to after we see how the hives winter. The pattern will actually be more about how each location does.

    The jury is still out, but leaning tword toxins.

    Crazy Roland

  10. #30
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    Jul 2012
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    Tsawwassen, BC, Canada
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Again, just to be fair, pneumonia does not have be an outcome of poor health. It can strike the unlucky healthy as well. And these days, you don't usually die, thanks to treatment options.

    So sorry to hear of your losses, Roland. Hoping things turn around.

  11. #31
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    Apr 2014
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    Alexandria, Virginia
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    5Mite Drop OAV.jpg hiya! First of all I am sorry for your loss but you are definitely doing something or not doing something. OAV is great if used properly. As you know OAV kills the phoretic mites. with that said you must repeat the treatment every 4-5 days for about 15 days or longer. WHAT, AM I CRAZY? Nope....OAV is probably best used in the late fall when the brood production is starting to wind down...it makes this task easier. But you have to do it. And you have to monitor the post treatment mite drop to see an ANTICIPATED drop in the mite count on the IPM. Otherwise, you are wasting your time with this treatment. The attachement shows my mite drop over time using OAV. There is an initial knock down and most of my hives responded predictably except for hine #5 as you can see. You have to continue the treament until you see the anticipated mite drop. So as far as a new illness, I have not heard of any new illness mentioned in any of the trade journals-yet...keep us informed. Varroa is a killer. diligent monitoring and treatment when necessary is a requirement throughout the year. BTW-So far ALL my hives have made it through the winter which makes 100% overwintering in 4 years. neener-neener-neeeeeener!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by beeeee View Post
    Last Thanksgiving I had 15 hives that were alive and looking good. I had 5 regular hives and 10 nucs. For the last two years I have been using vaporized OA. I have my doubts about how effective this has been for me. I did not vaporize my nucs because I thought the brood breaks were supposed to take care of the mites? There is a study being conducted at Stout University in Menomonie Wisconsin. They have discovered a new illness that has been present in large numbers in hives fr om Wisconsin and Minnesota. I had some of my bees tested at Stout. They were all positive for the illness. I would like to hear from beekeepers who are familiar with vaporization of OA. Does the stuff work?

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    It seems they went off half cocked.
    I don't know about that. While they say they haven't established causation, I read it as a bad sign. If I put my detective hat on, I see a smoking gun. More investigation will be necessary before they can say yea or nay for sure but one thing seems clear- the dratted mites have to be kept in check.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Wilson, - true that. I was speaking in broad generalities.

    BadBad... - Yes, I was harsh. My feeling is that there is something much more lethal, and sudden, out there. We do not see hives gradually decline, with dead bees present. We see empty hives where 2 weeks earlier they where in great shape. Could mites do that? Sure. But would the populations of mites reach threshold in all of the hives at the same time? We often see one or two weaker hives unaffected and survive. If it where mites, they would drift to the remaining hive, and we do not see mite issues in the remaining hive.

    Yes, we need to keep an eye on this.

    Crazy Roland

  14. #34
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    Apr 2014
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Look I only see one other post by the OP.

    We do not know what he was doing before he killed his apiary. We don't know how he treated his hives or if he treated correctly using OAV.

    From what I am seeing here , this sounds like an overwintering issue where VD exploded in his hives.

    In his 2nd post he points to something a professor said about a bacterium....

    Well, there is no mystery here folks.

    With a certain mite load and threshold, the hive becomes stressed and the stressor become untenable during the winter and anytime VD can grow unchecked.

    At other times you'll see DWV, a sure sign of VD infestation. I think there are 20 known viral associations with VD. Some are symptomatic and others are asymptomatic.....

    Without his postmortem assessment on each hive, a detailed description on his treatment method, technique and schedule, 33 posts here are all just conjecture.CHEERS!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Wilson, - true that. I was speaking in broad generalities.

    BadBad... - Yes, I was harsh. My feeling is that there is something much more lethal, and sudden, out there. We do not see hives gradually decline, with dead bees present. We see empty hives where 2 weeks earlier they where in great shape. Could mites do that? Sure. But would the populations of mites reach threshold in all of the hives at the same time? We often see one or two weaker hives unaffected and survive. If it where mites, they would drift to the remaining hive, and we do not see mite issues in the remaining hive.

    Yes, we need to keep an eye on this.

    Crazy Roland

  15. #35
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    Apr 2014
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    Alexandria, Virginia
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Look I only see one other post by the OP.

    We do not know what he was doing before he killed his apiary. We don't know how he treated his hives or if he treated correctly using OAV.

    From what I am seeing here , this sounds like an overwintering issue where VD exploded in his hives.

    In his 2nd post he points to something a professor said about a bacterium....

    Well, there is no mystery here folks.

    With a certain mite load and threshold, the hive becomes stressed and the stressor become untenable during the winter and anytime VD can grow unchecked.

    At other times you'll see DWV, a sure sign of VD infestation. I think there are 20 known viral associations with VD. Some are symptomatic and others are asymptomatic.....

    Without his postmortem assessment on each hive, a detailed description on his treatment method, technique and schedule, 33 posts here are all just conjecture.CHEERS!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Wilson, - true that. I was speaking in broad generalities.

    BadBad... - Yes, I was harsh. My feeling is that there is something much more lethal, and sudden, out there. We do not see hives gradually decline, with dead bees present. We see empty hives where 2 weeks earlier they where in great shape. Could mites do that? Sure. But would the populations of mites reach threshold in all of the hives at the same time? We often see one or two weaker hives unaffected and survive. If it where mites, they would drift to the remaining hive, and we do not see mite issues in the remaining hive.

    Yes, we need to keep an eye on this.

    Crazy Roland

  16. #36
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    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    Here's my view on it.... sometimes the obsession of the why actually makes it impossible to accept the truth. I find it interesting the first conclusion about this bacteria is that it's causing death in beehives when in fact all we know about it is.... well not a lot, except it seems to be present in a lot of hives that died out, which can be said about a lot of things.

  17. #37
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    Apr 2014
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    471

    Default Re: Lost them all again this year

    virus, not bacteria....
    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Here's my view on it.... sometimes the obsession of the why actually makes it impossible to accept the truth. I find it interesting the first conclusion about this bacteria is that it's causing death in beehives when in fact all we know about it is.... well not a lot, except it seems to be present in a lot of hives that died out, which can be said about a lot of things.

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