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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,268

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    small cell silicone matrices

    Talk to someone who is actually using foundation made with these before you buy in! Advertorials dont count Wax, as cast, is very brittle and this process uses much more wax than a mechanically rolled sheet.
    Frank

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Germany, BW
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Im not selling them. I use them.

    The wax is more brittle because there is no paraffin oil in it. Work with it in a warm room.
    The moment the foundations are in the hive , no problem. Yes you need more wax.

    I have never seen a rolled sheet with same direction length of cell size.
    Listen to good advice, then.... make your own decision. fusion_power
    www.vivabiene.de

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Birmingham, AL, USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    I use them with my press.
    http://www.vivabiene.de/g20-Arbeitsweise-SiWolKe.html

    I have bees regressed on small cells. The AMM build very good small cell combs, the carnis build wonky. The carnis are bred for honey production. Cell diameter and direction is same size with this matrices.
    The difference of this matrices is that you have only the cell bottom not the sides stamped out.

    I have my own wax. Im not cooking the wax. 70C is the highest temperature I do.
    Very cool. Do you know if there are any instructional videos or videos showing the process of using these with a press like yours?

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    2,491

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    There are a few articles in German that describe methods to remove chemical contaminants from wax. Going on memory, they use a flocculant followed by forcing the wax through a ceramic filter. Please don't take this as definitive, there could be more methods that work or this could be outdated information.
    NW Alabama, 47 years, 22 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Central Alabama, Shelby County
    Posts
    248

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    >>>>>>Good reading. I like the idea of narrow frames, I simply lack the equipment, skill, and time required to modify the frames and make it happen.<<<<<<<

    I have a table saw. Do you have the 3 hours per 100 it takes to modify them?

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Birmingham, AL, USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by ToeOfDog View Post
    >>>>>>Good reading. I like the idea of narrow frames, I simply lack the equipment, skill, and time required to modify the frames and make it happen.<<<<<<<

    I have a table saw. Do you have the 3 hours per 100 it takes to modify them?
    I'd like to learn as much as I can from experienced folks. If I can learn how to do it reliably, and how to work the boxes correctly, that would certainly help.

    Doing that would mean I'd have different frames in my brood boxes than my supers, right? That would eliminate some of the advantages of going with all mediums, but not the main advantage, I guess.

    The other potential drawback, what about the 10 full frames I'll be getting in my nucs? They won't be 1.25". I guess I could have one brood box normal width and the other 2 filled with narrow frames.

    I'm definitely open to learning and investigating further. Time is ticking and bees will be here soon, so I need to figure something out.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rib Lake WI
    Posts
    975

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    If you don't have the time or the skill to do narrow f just go with the regular frame then you won't have the headache .

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    North Dakota
    Posts
    104

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by aumfc View Post
    Doing that would mean I'd have different frames in my brood boxes than my supers, right?
    No. You would just space the frames farther apart in the supers. They wouldn't touch each other. My understanding is that it's helpful to do this anyway since bees will draw honeycomb wider than brood comb. I'm new too, so don't take my word for it but I'm planning on spacing frames in the supers at 1.5 inches.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Germany, BW
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyMcBean View Post
    No. You would just space the frames farther apart in the supers. They wouldn't touch each other. My understanding is that it's helpful to do this anyway since bees will draw honeycomb wider than brood comb. I'm new too, so don't take my word for it but I'm planning on spacing frames in the supers at 1.5 inches.
    Very cool. Do you know if there are any instructional videos or videos showing the process of using these with a press like yours?
    Its very easy to do the foundations.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2W9-IloHZk
    Im selling the black parts of the combs to a metalworker company. They do a special finish. Get as much money as with honey and have no work cleaning it.

    The clean parts of comb Im just melting and cool down later to separate the cocons and debris. This I scrape away. Then I melt again and press foundations like in the video.

    The press is homemade by a friend, the matrices purchased. A co-worker does the 5.1, Im doing 4.9.

    We do it for free for all who want to go tf and need foundations of their own wax. They send the wax to us and pay for the shipping, sometimes donate money to us.
    The presses are expensive, but we had a wax scandal with companies mixing chinese wax into the organic wax people send them and the combs broke with the warm interior of he beehives.

    My small tf group and those who want to change to tf will try to have natural comb in the broodnest area with narrow spacing and we will use foundations 4.9-5.1 in places without brood or supers. More space there.

    So far I used narrow space 33mm and 4.9 in all areas and it was no problem. But I want to improve to a more natural arrangement giving the bees more freedom to decide.
    Listen to good advice, then.... make your own decision. fusion_power
    www.vivabiene.de

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    270

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    Yes, warmer broodnest is the result
    I have herd this a few times, does any one have a link to a scientific study that small cell bees keep their nest warmer then normal cell bees?

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Birmingham, AL, USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyMcBean View Post
    No. You would just space the frames farther apart in the supers. They wouldn't touch each other. My understanding is that it's helpful to do this anyway since bees will draw honeycomb wider than brood comb. I'm new too, so don't take my word for it but I'm planning on spacing frames in the supers at 1.5 inches.
    Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rib Lake WI
    Posts
    975

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I have herd this a few times, does any one have a link to a scientific study that small cell bees keep their nest warmer then normal cell bees?
    I don't think the brood nest is "warmer" there are more cells per square inch so you need fewer bees to cover the brood that equals faster growth of the population.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rib Lake WI
    Posts
    975

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by aumfc View Post
    Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?
    There is no reason you can't use the narrow frames just start them useing all your frames to get them drawn out. Sometimes they will make a honey frame so wide it will go into the space of the frame next to it. Once the frames are drawn you can remove a frame then space the rest.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    5,096

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Narrow frames in the supers is counter productive. You want the comb wider as it's easier to uncap and yields more per frame.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    270

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the bee guy View Post
    I don't think the brood nest is "warmer" there are more cells per square inch so you need fewer bees to cover the brood that equals faster growth of the population.
    I have hurd that as well but can't find anything to back that up either.. ie a study saying a small cell bee is bigger compared to its cell size vs a normal cell bee.
    The fallacy of that argument would seem to be assuming large and small cell bees have the same adult size. Doesn't smaller cells means smaller bees? are they are smaller by the same factor the cell is smaller, so then you need the same ratio of bees to cover brood... yes there is more brood per square inch, but there are also more bees per square inch.

    Now it could be that BTU output to body size isn't linear, or it could be overwintering clusters are based on biomass not numbers and small cell bees over winter with more individuals so in spring they can cover more brood cells... but I haven't been able to find anything to that effect.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Birmingham, AL, USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Narrow frames in the supers is counter productive. You want the comb wider as it's easier to uncap and yields more per frame.
    Thanks. I don't mean narrowly spaced. I'm talking about using frames in the super that have been narrowed in order to be spaced more tightly in the brood boxes.

    The reason for this would be to only have to deal with one frame that could be used anywhere in the hive.

    I'd like to chat with someone running small cell in all 8-frame mediums.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rib Lake WI
    Posts
    975

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I have hurd that as well but can't find anything to back that up either.. ie a study saying a small cell bee is bigger compared to its cell size vs a normal cell bee.
    The fallacy of that argument would see to be assuming large and small cell bees have the same adult size. Doesn't smaller cells means smaller bees? are they are smaller by the same factor the cell is smaller, so then you need the same ratio of bees to cover brood... yes there is more brood per square inch, but there are also more bees per square inch.

    Now it could be that BTU output to body size isn't linear, or it could be overwintering clusters are based on biomass not numbers and small cell bees over winter with more individuals so in spring they can cover more brood... but I haven't been able to find anything to that effect.
    It is hard to sift out the bs so far I haven't been able to do it on the small cell thing. But I do have hives on both but not enough to tell a differance.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    51,763

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    >Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?

    I do. If they are obviously using it to store honey, I space them 7 to an 8 frame box once they are drawn. The narrow frames are slightly easier to uncap as the end bars are skinnier so you can cut 1/16" deeper on each side.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Birmingham, AL, USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Thanks. Is anyone using the narrow frames in the honey supers?

    I do. If they are obviously using it to store honey, I space them 7 to an 8 frame box once they are drawn. The narrow frames are slightly easier to uncap as the end bars are skinnier so you can cut 1/16" deeper on each side.
    Thank you. Do you make your own narrow frames from scratch or trim available frames down?

    Do you also have 9 frames to an 8 frame brood box? Encounter any issues when working within that tighter space than you would with only 8 frames? Thank you for any experience you can share.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    North Dakota
    Posts
    104

    Default Re: Small Cell Foundation Help, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by msl View Post
    I have hurd that as well but can't find anything to back that up either.. ie a study saying a small cell bee is bigger compared to its cell size vs a normal cell bee.
    The fallacy of that argument would seem to be assuming large and small cell bees have the same adult size. Doesn't smaller cells means smaller bees? are they are smaller by the same factor the cell is smaller, so then you need the same ratio of bees to cover brood... yes there is more brood per square inch, but there are also more bees per square inch.

    Now it could be that BTU output to body size isn't linear, or it could be overwintering clusters are based on biomass not numbers and small cell bees over winter with more individuals so in spring they can cover more brood cells... but I haven't been able to find anything to that effect.
    I didn't think brood was usually reared in winter. They aren't talking about warmer in winter, just easier to keep brood at appropriate Temps during a rearing season?

    That said, I'm pretty sure this is all conjecture without evidence. The only evidence I've seen to support narrow frames comes from Mr. Bush's website where he has a picture of some cross-comb that was spaced at 1.25 inches on center. I have not seen any data with a sufficiently large sample size for good confidence in that measurement.

    I do like the idea of an extra frame per brood box though...

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