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  1. #1
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    Default OAV with a fogger

    Hey all any use a fogger for OA treatment? I saw a video with a guy using this method and wanted to if anyone was doing this

  2. #2
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    Athens, AL
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger


  3. #3
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    Ocala, Florida, USA
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    OA or mineral oil?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    OA. You mix it with alcohol. Seem interesting and much faster but I've never done it

  5. #5
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    I mentioned on one thread that OA fogging with glycerine sounded like a promising path to investigate and was accused of being somehow vague or unscientific or something undesirable in other ways. I still think it sounds worth pursuing, but I don't have the necessary combination of resources and inclination. It seems that what you'd want is for a carrier with OA to be atomized very finely and have the droplets stick to the bees without plugging their trachea or making them too soggy to fly. I guess I should sit back and watch. Let me go make another batch of popcorn.

    Michael
    I thought I made a mistake once ..., but I was wrong.
    (David Sebree. No, not that David Sebree)

  6. #6
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    Ireland
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    http://apis-donau.com/blog/2016/11/0...gainst-varroa/
    I havent used it, it looks easy enough.It would be interesting to try it on a heavily infested colony
    Last edited by Black and Amber; 02-16-2017 at 04:35 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    I wonder if Randy Oliver has played with this method. It is so much faster

  8. #8
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    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Quote Originally Posted by johnwratcliff View Post
    I wonder if Randy Oliver has played with this method. It is so much faster
    Not trying to sound like a commercial, but I can do a hive in 30 seconds with my new Provap 110.
    --shinbone
    (7th year, 10 hives, Zone 5b, 5500')

  9. #9
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Yep it's fast but the fogger approach is just as fast and $70. I may buy one this summer and just test

  10. #10
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    Chardon, Ohio
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Thermal foggers reach a real high temperature. If the stuff you are fogging can not withstand high temperatures it is decomposed. Oxalic acid in glycerin starts to break down at a temp of 100 deg C according to all sorts of available literature and a bit higher than that and decomposition is really fast. Foggers are way hotter than this. Glycerin has a boiling point of 290 deg C so you are going to have to get at least that hot. The net result of fogging a glycerin solution of oxalic acid would be zero oxalic acid getting in the hive. Draw your own conclusions.

    You might also want to think about all the really smart people that have been fighting varroa mites for years and using oxalic acid to do this for years. Yet there are zero reports of anyone using foggers to apply it and actually killing mites this way. Do you think those people have not thought of that idea long ago? After all, someone asks this question on this forum every couple of months. So, it is far from a new idea.

    There is also the problem that such an application is illegal in the US.

    If you still want to try it go ahead. But please report your before and after mite counts by some meaningful measurement like an alcohol wash. Do not waste everyone's time with sticky paper counts that tell us nothing. Also fog both with and without oxalic acid in the glycerin so we can see if any drop in counts is simply bees grooming off glycerin.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    I will do some counts before it will be this summer before I do it

  12. #12
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    Feb 2015
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    Wayne, WV, USA
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Isn't formic acid one of the by-products of oxalic acid being heated up too much?

    Aren't there some really big problems (like killing the whole hive) when people treat with expired MAQS, causing a flash treatment of formic instead of time-release?
    "The amazing thing about the honey bee is not that she works, but that she works for others." St. John Chrysostom

  13. #13
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Yep..... and you can imaging what hot asid is goiing to do the foggers internals

    Its less then a gram of OA per CC at randys 1-1 mix , but lets call it 1 gram

    1cc yields about 70CF of thick fog at 1m vis, normal fog in open air would be 3x more CF.
    A double deep is > 3CF so even if breakdown didn't happen the hive would be getting like 0.042g of OA per double deep

  14. #14
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    would mineral oil do better in the fogger than alcohol ?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Quote Originally Posted by allan View Post
    would mineral oil do better in the fogger than alcohol ?
    I would expect a hive to die slower if fogged with mineral oil and oxalic than if it was fogged with glycerin and oxalic. With mineral oil it could take a year or more depending on what else you did wrong.

  16. #16
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    York County, VA, USA
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    This is not a "dig" at anyone, but a serious question. I've not yet seen results reported from OA/glycerin fog, but only porous pad applications. Would one have found replies containing this kind of phrasing, "depending on what else you did wrong," a decade ago if one had asked about piping sublimated oxalic acid vapors into a live colony?

    Michael
    I thought I made a mistake once ..., but I was wrong.
    (David Sebree. No, not that David Sebree)

  17. #17
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    I have fogged some nuc hives with the remainder of the OA/glycerin that I used with kraft paper on 6 hives last fall, mixed to the Argentinian formulae. Results: I am not yet dead and neither are the nucs and those six hives are booming. I normally search for and mark queens in early march, I am doing it now and I have 4 medium boxes crammed full of bees and have to struggle to locate queens. I have never had this many bees so early.
    Johno

  18. #18
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTiefster View Post
    a decade ago if one had asked about piping sublimated oxalic acid vapors into a live colony?l
    No one would have batted an eye, at that point there were plenty of published studies, commercial vaporizers go back 15+ years here is a manual dated 2002 http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/oxalicthorne.html

    OAV is not new, its just becoming invogue state side

    but you other point stands, "on paper" is great, but no one will know for sure till it's done in a controlled experiment and replicated.
    The problem is when people do an uncontrolled one, it leads to snake oil cures that persist on the net.
    johno is out there and trying, and I respect that, please keep us posted
    but without data, pre/post mite counts, controls, large sample size ect its subjective at best
    What someone with a better chemistry back ground then me should do is run the numbers, assuming full reaction, and calculate the formic output and compare it to the dose size for a flash treatment

    Richard, what in the mineral would cause the death of the hive, Not challenging the statement, wanting to understand the mechanism of action given its history as a mite treatment

    allan- mineral oil will not dissolve OA, its the wrong type of solvent...ie polar vs nonpolar. in a nutshell if it will not mix with water, it will not dissolve OA
    Last edited by msl; 02-19-2017 at 11:41 AM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    could the oa be emulsified with the mineral oil ?
    Last edited by allan; 02-19-2017 at 12:31 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: OAV with a fogger

    Just a follow-up note: when I think of "fogging" I think of mechanical means to atomize a liquid material for its own interest or the interest in something dissolved or suspended in it. A heat-induced vaporization is not what I think of, although if it makes a hard-to-see-through suspension in room temperature air as does steam from a kettle in an already humid room, that does indeed qualify as "fog." My personal introduction to the term "fogging" was in my youth from aerosol pesticides, and that is the concept I was attempting to ask about: an aerosol of glycerin/OA, depositing on all exposed surfaces the same material being applied to "paper towels" or other porous pad. No heat-induced decomposition would be involved in that, although the term could be used for thermally driven foggers which might cause decomposition.

    Michael
    I thought I made a mistake once ..., but I was wrong.
    (David Sebree. No, not that David Sebree)

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