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  1. #1
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    Default Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    It's an early study that deserved my attention. There is no match in advanced title search. I believe it has interest to some of us.


    REQUEENING HONEY BEE COLONIES WITHOUT DEQUEENING
    By I. W. FORSTER* (Received 15 October 1971)

    ABSTRACT
    Two-storeyed colonies can be successfully requeened by raising
    the original queen and the brood nest above a division board, rearing a young queen from an introduced cell in the bottom storey, and then reuniting both storeys when most advantageous. There is no need to
    find queens, and colony manipulation is reduced to a minimum.


    source: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...eedAccess=true

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Listen to good advice, then.... make your own decision. fusion_power
    www.vivabiene.de

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Sibylle the procedure is different. If you do not know the article I advise you to read it. You will not give your time for lost. It is a very short article.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    I'm not sure how that relieves one of finding the original queen. You need to know the box she is in.

    I rather like the artificial swarm idea. Move the old queen to a nuc with sufficient stores, nurses, and brood to get a fresh start. Let the old hive raise a queen. If anything goes wrong, you can recombine, or donate brood from the nuc. If you decide to pinch the old queen later, the nuc can be recombined with the original.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    Sibylle the procedure is different. If you do not know the article I advise you to read it. You will not give your time for lost. It is a very short article.
    Sorry.
    Listen to good advice, then.... make your own decision. fusion_power
    www.vivabiene.de

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    I combined two queenright colonies this Fall. Repeated attempts to locate an older queen (to remove her) failed over several days during bad weather and I ultimately gave up. The colonies were initially separated by an inner cover with the center hole open, and a sheet of newspaper over that. After a number of days the inner cover was removed from the middle of the stack (the newspaper had been chewed through).

    I'll see what's what come Spring. I really didn't have much choice as it was so late in the season and better weather was not to be expected. Unfortunately, neither queen was marked, so unless there are two queens in there when I inspect in the Spring, it isn't likely that I'll know which survived.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Hi Eduardo, I cannot see the point of leaving the older queen to be destroyed. I re queen my hives every spring with my own queen cells as part of my swarm prevention practice, when the spring weather allows. The 2nd season queen with a frame of capped brood becomes a nuc to be sold later. Of course the colony has to be watched for the cell to emerge and eventually for the new queen to start laying.
    Johno

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Hi johno, In my case I may have to eliminate some old queens for the first time, because I do not wish to duplicate my number of hives. On the other hand I am not sure that in my country I can sell in a few months 600 nucs. Purchasing power here is lower than in the US and many beekeepers recover their winter losses by spliting their hives or picking up swarms.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    I have read in many different sources that you can just place a ready to emerge queen cell in the top of the top honey stores box. The cell will emerge and the virgin will kill the old queen most of the time, as a superceder replacement. There are a couple people here in the forms that do this, I can't recall just who at the moment though.

    The ready to emerge cell is to be placed in the top honey storage area to give her some separation from the brood nest area which is below. A virgin queen is programmed to search out and kill other queens, and the old queen is slower as she is full off eggs and actively laying. I have read that this works in a high percentage of the colonies it is done on, and seems much easier than what is described in the link in the first post above.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
    I have read in many different sources that you can just place a ready to emerge queen cell in the top of the top honey stores box.
    Yes Ray, I also think some of us do it with success.

    However if I find it difficult to sell the 600 nucs, I intend to sell about half. As I am not sure how many, I believe I.W. Forster's proposal fits well with this level of uncertainty. Those who come to sell I'll pass them to another box. Those who I do not sell I'll put out the divider board and let nature take its course.

    About the technique you refer Szabo wrote this paper:
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...543?src=recsys

    One question: in Portugal, beekeepers value more nucleus with a new queen compared to a nucleus with a one-year-old queen. I have the impression that in the USA it is the opposite, that you value a queen who has overwinter well. Is it correct?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by RayMarler View Post
    I have read in many different sources that you can just place a ready to emerge queen cell in the top of the top honey stores box. The cell will emerge and the virgin will kill the old queen most of the time, as a superceder replacement. There are a couple people here in the forms that do this, I can't recall just who at the moment though.

    The ready to emerge cell is to be placed in the top honey storage area to give her some separation from the brood nest area which is below. A virgin queen is programmed to search out and kill other queens, and the old queen is slower as she is full off eggs and actively laying. I have read that this works in a high percentage of the colonies it is done on, and seems much easier than what is described in the link in the first post above.
    I re-queen that way except I use a queen excluder under the queen cell. I just lift the top box, put on the excluder, pop in the frame that has a couple of queen cells on it, place the cover on, then remove the queen excluder in a couple of weeks. The virgin queen will go through the excluder prior to being mated and will kill the old queen, then leave for her mating flight. A very easy and reliable way to re-queen.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    stan.vick,
    I am curious - why do the bees who have the old queen that is still laying not defend her and kill the new queen. I once saw bees ball a young queen that returned from her mating flight and land on the wrong landing board. I was suprised how quickly they attacked her and she didn't even get in the hive.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by billabell View Post
    stan.vick,
    I am curious - why do the bees who have the old queen that is still laying not defend her and kill the new queen. I once saw bees ball a young queen that returned from her mating flight and land on the wrong landing board. I was suprised how quickly they attacked her and she didn't even get in the hive.
    I think it is the lack of or weak queen pheromones of an unmated queen, I have taken a newly emerged queen and placed her at the entrance of a hive and watched her march into the hive unchallenged while there were plenty of guard bees on duty, I did this out of curiosity because I had the same questions that you have. I have used the method many times, so it's not just a fluke, it works time after time.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Thank you. That is something I did not think of weak queen essence.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo Gomes View Post
    One question: in Portugal, beekeepers value more nucleus with a new queen compared to a nucleus with a one-year-old queen. I have the impression that in the USA it is the opposite, that you value a queen who has overwinter well. Is it correct?
    I think it depends on the beekeeper you ask. Some want a nuc with queen as early in the season as they can possibly get, and that means an over wintered queen in nuc, which would be available before any spring mated queens. This factor may also play into the location of where the beekeeper is keeping bees. In the far north or north-east where the season starts later, or in the south where the season starts earlier.

    Some beekeepers say an over wintered queen that was mated late summer of the year before and over wintered, is a better chance of being a good queen than a recently mated early spring queen. I myself am undecided in this, as there are so many variables in bees, and I've seen both good and not as good queens from the year before, as well as the current year spring queens.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    The newly mated young after the solstice queen that can overwintered will
    withstand the arctic chills here better. Under our normal environment, they can
    multiply quickly on hive expansion days. Remember that she is still a 2-3 months young queen but
    overwintered nevertheless. So she can carry the colony through. Without these young queens my
    mite bomb nuc manipulation cannot be done here. She can often outlay the old 2nd year queen and beat the mites population too. That's why if I can to overwinter as many of these late mated queens as possible. Since she's in the nuc stage, the focus will be on hive expansion and not on swarming impulse on an early Spring flow. On purpose, 3 years in the testing mated and emerged in a hive mite infested level nuc hive. I'm almost there with all the equipment preparation for another round this Spring.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    I confess to not having read the paper, but Eduardo's description seems to be the same words which would be applied to a Snelgrove board vertical split of a colony. Is it somehow different?

    Michael
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often in my youth from the late David Sebree)

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