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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by beepro View Post
    The newly mated young after the solstice queen that can overwintered will
    withstand the arctic chills here better. Under our normal environment, they can
    multiply quickly on hive expansion days. Remember that she is still a 2-3 months young queen but
    overwintered nevertheless. So she can carry the colony through. Without these young queens my
    mite bomb nuc manipulation cannot be done here. She can often outlay the old 2nd year queen and beat the mites population too. That's why if I can to overwinter as many of these late mated queens as possible. Since she's in the nuc stage, the focus will be on hive expansion and not on swarming impulse on an early Spring flow. On purpose, 3 years in the testing mated and emerged in a hive mite infested level nuc hive. I'm almost there with all the equipment preparation for another round this Spring.
    Yes. Yet another reason to do OTS on June 20.
    I'll be putting pink dots on the 2017 post solstice queens. Yellow on the pre-solstice.
    In fact I'm trying to come up with a system to mark my queens where I can tell what year and whether it's pre or post solstice just by color. Then compare which has better winter survival rate.
    I wonder if a post-soltice queen could make it thru two Illinois winters. So far not many have made it that long in my yards.
    Internet credibility is an oxymoron

  2. #22
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    Nov 2009
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    Columbia, MO
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    I admire Mel's commitment to his OTS system, but is there any scientific research to confirm that queens raised after the summer solstice are more apt to survive the winter and be better queens the following spring?

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by SWM View Post
    I admire Mel's commitment to his OTS system, but is there any scientific research to confirm that queens raised after the summer solstice are more apt to survive the winter and be better queens the following spring?
    I don't know about that; the big claim I've seen is that they lay like a spring queen. That was true of the queens I bought last August. I guess that could help them survive the winter.

  4. #24
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    Oct 2016
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    York County, VA, USA
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    309

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    A common enough description of "science": observation by the "generally respectable," followed by interpretation by the "appropriately certified." Someone without certification, but who becomes respectable enough to be given a public hearing, is commonly awarded some honorary degree or other, thereby becoming certified.

    One only has to read the reports provided by adequately careful observers, and make one's informed interpretation of these observations to be doing what falls under my definition of "science." Disselkoen has an apparent conflict of interest. But that doesn't mean his information is less correct. It just means he might not be fully objective. Or he might be. "Apparent" does not mean "actual." Listen, then make your decision. "Science" brought you "all cholesterol plugs your arteries.... Oh, wait.... maybe not. Oh. There are _two_ kinds of that stuff. But coconut oil is ba.... oh. wait.... But you don't really want to be eating fat in your diet, anyway... Oh...." Listen, think, then decide. You, too, can do "science."
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  5. #25
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    Dec 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    6,707

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    I'm part science and part observation with my little bee experiment through out the years. Third year into the
    testing and still have not learn them all yet. One can only be certain by testing a small batch to see the yearly
    results. The reason I still have bees to keep and expand on is that mainly 95% of my hives are from the overwintered
    nucs with a late after the solstice queen that I hand selected coming from good genetic background. They are the local
    mated daughter queens. The obsolete ones will be weeded out during the qualifying and selection process made during the
    winter time as we have mild winter here. Combine Mike Palmer's nuc and Mel's (late) solstice queen with my
    mite bee bomb brood removal (winter) nuc management method = winter survival bees. The proof is in the box. A well fed young strong queen coming from good genetics will make the difference between winter survival or a hive crash. Many will not select their queens for winter survival, I do. So select them carefully!


    Young queen on Spring expansion is amazing:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  6. #26
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    Apr 2010
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    Lexington, VA, USA
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    376

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTiefster View Post
    A common enough description of "science": observation by the "generally respectable," followed by interpretation by the "appropriately certified." Someone without certification, but who becomes respectable enough to be given a public hearing, is commonly awarded some honorary degree or other, thereby becoming certified.

    One only has to read the reports provided by adequately careful observers, and make one's informed interpretation of these observations to be doing what falls under my definition of "science." Disselkoen has an apparent conflict of interest. But that doesn't mean his information is less correct. It just means he might not be fully objective. Or he might be. "Apparent" does not mean "actual." Listen, then make your decision. "Science" brought you "all cholesterol plugs your arteries.... Oh, wait.... maybe not. Oh. There are _two_ kinds of that stuff. But coconut oil is ba.... oh. wait.... But you don't really want to be eating fat in your diet, anyway... Oh...." Listen, think, then decide. You, too, can do "science."
    1491: the science is settled the earth is flat
    1492: oops!!

  7. #27
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    Nov 2009
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    Columbia, MO
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    194

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTiefster View Post
    A common enough description of "science": observation by the "generally respectable," followed by interpretation by the "appropriately certified." Someone without certification, but who becomes respectable enough to be given a public hearing, is commonly awarded some honorary degree or other, thereby becoming certified.

    One only has to read the reports provided by adequately careful observers, and make one's informed interpretation of these observations to be doing what falls under my definition of "science." Disselkoen has an apparent conflict of interest. But that doesn't mean his information is less correct. It just means he might not be fully objective. Or he might be. "Apparent" does not mean "actual." Listen, then make your decision. "Science" brought you "all cholesterol plugs your arteries.... Oh, wait.... maybe not. Oh. There are _two_ kinds of that stuff. But coconut oil is ba.... oh. wait.... But you don't really want to be eating fat in your diet, anyway... Oh...." Listen, think, then decide. You, too, can do "science."
    Well, I can see that I pushed your buttons by using the term "scientific research". Yes, my own observations are weighted much more heavily as well, so we agree on that. To be clear, I'm not doubting the premise that queens raised after the summer solstice will do better the following year. I'm just trying to understand it at a deeper level for my own curiosity. So I'll rephrase the question: What is it about a queen that emerges on June 25th that makes her better equipped to lead a colony the following year than a queen that emerges 10 days earlier on June 15th, before the summer solstice? If you don't know the answer, that's okay because I don't know it either...but
    I'm searching for it.

  8. #28
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    Dec 2015
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    285

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Is it possible it is not a difference in the queens as much as a difference in the number of winter bees they layed in the fall? Once again, I have seen it suggested several times that a queen hatched after the summer solstice will lay like a queen who is in the spring build up. This late brood break and rapid fall build up could help the hives control mites. It could give the hive more and healthier winter bees. This could make it appear that the queen born after the summer solstice is much better than the spring queen that has reduced brood rearing in the fall, wintered with less and less healthy bees due to varroa. Or worse yet the queen that did not reduce brood rearing, but, protected tons of mites in her brood right up until winter. No?

  9. #29
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    Oct 2016
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    York County, VA, USA
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    309

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    SWM: Well, yes (as he lifts his head sheepishly to reply), I do respond on some topics in a rantish fashion. Michael Faraday was not a college-schooled, certificated person, but a well-reasoned, astute observer. While having the first half of that, I occasionally muster the skill to be the second. I make mistakes, too. But no one should take the word of a certificated person when it runs counter to his own eyes. Yes, your eyes may fool you, but then you're not observing carefully enough. We should just keep at it and remember our limitations.

    Seems we are in basic agreement. Look at the development history of Walt Wright's "Nectar Management" for some hints he provides on this topic of post-solstice queens. Walt's observations included that his queens laid like anything into the open brood space he provided through his checkerboarding, in his time and place, with his bees. Then they were superseded for reasons he didn't determine. His observation was that it routinely happened. Some others who corresponded with him did not see the same things with their bees, at least not as a uniform pattern. But Walt's observations dovetail with Disselkoen's observations about post-solstice queens being a Good Thing To Overwinter. Disselkoen makes what appear to be speculative words about day-length sensitivity, concerning the validity of which I have no idea whatsoever. But both of these astute observers found that later-summer queens were beneficial. Neither concluded confidently why this should be so.

    Disselkoen credits Miller with noting and publishing the tendency of worker bees to turn cut cells into queens at the bottom of chevron-trimmed comb. Miller, in Disselkoen's view, didn't recognize that simply turning a cell into a downward facing cup seemed to be the crucial trigger. Hopkins found this in his "turn comb horizontal" method of making queen cells, but Disselkoen uses both in a simple fashion to guide and suggest to the bees where to place queen cells. The bees don't always listen, but there is a bias in their response.

    It would be useful to understand why post solstice queens did well in these two areas. I find it uncompelling that the bees simply out-reproduce the mites. There is always a population reduction in bees, and the mites don't automatically die off as the bee population decreases. Now, if the queen rears the winter bee population with fewer brood cycles, that also cuts off some of the growth cycles of the mites, and could reduce the mite infestation proportion. But (as you said of yourself) I don't know.
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  10. #30
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    Sep 2008
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    2,322

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    There is no difference between the queens you describe if they are raised in my area. What affects a queen's ability to lay eggs is the number of eggs she has available to lay, the amount of sperm she has stored to fertilize them, and the number of eggs she has been required to lay to build a worker population to collect the spring nectar flow.

    A May queen will do just as well laying the fall/winter bees as one raised after June 21, if she is in a healthy, well fed colony. She has not been stressed by having to lay large numbers of eggs for the spring buildup. The winter adult bee population is the foundation for the buildup the following spring, and many beekeepers fail to properly manage the colony to encourage the bees fall buildup. When the colony fails overwinter it is blamed on an "old" queen dying, or excessive moisture.

    The solstice is just another day, ignore the "gimics" and raise well nourished virgins from good stock, and furnish healthy drones for her to mate with. Have new queens in all of your colonies by the middle of July and watch your winter survival rate climb.
    40 years - 25 colonies, 32 Nucs - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

  11. #31
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Columbia, MO
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    194

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Thanks, DerTiefster, for your response and I think we are in a same place. Both passionate about honey bees and why they do what they do.
    The learning experience about bees has kept me fascinated with them for 40+ years and those who follow us will be doing the same thing
    after we are gone.

  12. #32
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    Dec 2015
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    Harrison Ar
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    There is no difference between the queens you describe if they are raised in my area. What affects a queen's ability to lay eggs is the number of eggs she has available to lay, the amount of sperm she has stored to fertilize them, and the number of eggs she has been required to lay to build a worker population to collect the spring nectar flow.

    A May queen will do just as well laying the fall/winter bees as one raised after June 21, if she is in a healthy, well fed colony. She has not been stressed by having to lay large numbers of eggs for the spring buildup. The winter adult bee population is the foundation for the buildup the following spring, and many beekeepers fail to properly manage the colony to encourage the bees fall buildup. When the colony fails overwinter it is blamed on an "old" queen dying, or excessive moisture.

    The solstice is just another day, ignore the "gimics" and raise well nourished virgins from good stock, and furnish healthy drones for her to mate with. Have new queens in all of your colonies by the middle of July and watch your winter survival rate climb.
    Just so I understand correctly. At the top your saying A May queen will do just as well as a queen raised after June 21. At the bottom your saying have new queens by the middle of July and watch your winter survival rate climb. Are you saying requeen at any time between spring and the middle of July and it will make no difference? Survival will increase due to a queen hatched in that period (spring thru the middle of July)?

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    York County, VA, USA
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    309

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    It is quite possible that Disselkoen's attribution of a day-length effect is only a guess. Motivated by post-spring queen survival, but no mechanism was suggested and it's hard to test out such a link. It is, however, a plausible link. Lots of things have day-length dependencies. I don't know that bees do, though. Tropical areas show little variation in day length. Bees can operate there year-round. Some places elsewhere, like protected coastal areas, have nearly year-round bee weather _and_ a day-length variation. Testing for such a link in those places might be fun.
    "I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong." (heard often from the late David Sebree) Still making them, myself

  14. #34
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    Apr 2010
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    Lexington, VA, USA
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    376

    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    This thread needs to be re-titled.

    I agree with AR Beekeeper.
    I would call your attention to this blog post by a knowledgeable beekeeper. https://honeybeesuite.com/what-are-w...at-do-they-do/
    I think Mel's methods based upon his studies of the leading beekeepers writings from the past from a practical view are spot on. He may not articulate them in "science speak" but his results will speak for themselves.
    The recent studies showing that our pollen in some ways is deficient is also a concern and caused me for the first time to open feed a pollen sub/supp this past fall and the bees took it like there was no tomorrow resulting, in part, in an explosion of bees this spring.

  15. #35
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    Jan 2015
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    Penobscot County, ME, USA
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by AR Beekeeper View Post
    The solstice is just another day, ignore the "gimics" and raise well nourished virgins from good stock, and furnish healthy drones for her to mate with. Have new queens in all of your colonies by the middle of July and watch your winter survival rate climb.
    I have generally been instructed that a young queen, a year or less old (and certainly less than two years old) performs better than an older queen that is two or more years old, and I can see that this idea may have some merit.

    But I see no merit or logic in insisting that queens produced before or after a sharp dividing line such as a 'solstice' will have any differences in performance that cannot be more accurately attributable to other factors. This appears to me to be little more than an 'old wives tale' generated by observer bias- "This queen is doing very well. Oh, yeah, she was hatched after the solstice, that must be the reason." Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  16. #36
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    Dec 2015
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    I don't know if it does or doesn't matter, but, it is not just a random date. It signifies a change in day length which could have an affect on behavior.

  17. #37
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    Jan 2011
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    Clackamas Oregon
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    OK, wow correct me if I am wrong after reading the two papers (Ed’s and SiWolKe:
    I do not have to make a hive queenless to raise 20 cells, just place the cells above an excluder
    I do not have to make up mating nucs, just place cells in a deep between boxes (method B, Below seemed to be preferred).
    I could run two queen colonies through our flow (nothing blooms here after blackberry in June), newspaper the two half’s or simply remove the old queen.
    Debate is out on the solstice, but again we hit a dearth at that date so raising queens after that date may have advantages for overwintering (Dr. Dewey Caron says using left over field bees)
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  18. #38
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    May 2015
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    Champaign, Illinois
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrightjr View Post
    I don't know if it does or doesn't matter, but, it is not just a random date. It signifies a change in day length which could have an affect on behavior.
    Zactly my thoughts. June 20 is the longest day of the year. After that every day is shorter. You don't notice it for a while but them bugs do. They've got atomic clocks and the finest GPS units nature can produce. They find their way back to a tiny little hole in a forest of trees.
    Internet credibility is an oxymoron

  19. #39
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    Apr 2010
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    Lexington, VA, USA
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    aunt betty: Yes they are amazing little creatures and that is why we are all so taken with them and trying to learn everything we can about them.

  20. #40
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    Sep 2008
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    Default Re: Requeening honey bee colonies without dequeening

    If the length of the daylight period has an affect on a queen emerged on June 21, why would it not have the same affect one emerged on June 1?
    40 years - 25 colonies, 32 Nucs - IPM disciple - Naturally Skeptic

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