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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    7,756

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    touche clyde. it's interesting to me as well how you continue to characterize the progress that many are reporting here as chimera. the only other contributor i see doing that these days is also a bee supplier who expresses how annoyed he is having to explain away to his customers why the traits they are interested in don't exist.

    straw man? ok. just my best guess since you don't give us any other reason for the negative criticism.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Worcester, MA
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    176

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    touche clyde. it's interesting to me as well how you continue to characterize the progress that many are reporting here as chimera. the only other contributor i see doing that these days is also a bee supplier who expresses how annoyed he is having to explain away to his customers why the traits they are interested in don't exist.
    At least they may not exist in HIS bees. Some times it's hard to believe something exists if one hasn't seen it for oneself.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    NE PA
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    94

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by grantsbees View Post
    At least they may not exist in HIS bees. Some times it's hard to believe something exists if one hasn't seen it for oneself.
    ,,,,,,,,, be thay red legs , ankel biters , VSH , or any other genitics. There is yet to be a silver bullet. All bs aside if there was everyone would be buying them,,, period. that said
    Anyone who is honest with themselves knows it is a combination of IPMs and genetics that permit survival of tf bees ,,x i will also add there are probaly also some that have achieved full eradication and have not suffered reinfection,,, all that considerd,,, when a bee seller gets a phone call most people asking about bees beeing mite proof,,,,,,, (mythical silver bullet) are or would be first timers new people, who got some dulusional ideals of easy beekeeping,,, so suggesting to these coustomers that said silver bullet dose not exist. Is the best service possible,,,,, . After all it is true as it applys to many of these callers,,,,,, experanced beeks already know what thay want and where to look

  4. #64
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    May 2016
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    Worcester, MA
    Posts
    176

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by birddog View Post
    All bs aside if there was everyone would be buying them
    I think you are a bit over simplifying this. There is no "silver bullet" but there are genetics out there that are more mite "resistant" than others. Not mite "proof"

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choo...fighting-bees/

    There is plenty of evidence to support this. So if what you say is true that if there were a better adapted breed for resisting mite infestation that "everyone" would go buy them. Well, there are... and not everyone is. IMHO it's the devil you know.

  5. #65
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    May 2016
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    Worcester, MA
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    176

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by birddog View Post
    when a bee seller gets a phone call most people asking about bees beeing mite proof,,,,,,, (mythical silver bullet) are or would be first timers new people, who got some dulusional ideals of easy beekeeping,,, so suggesting to these coustomers that said silver bullet dose not exist. Is the best service possible,,,,, .
    So basically instead of guiding these "inexperienced" people to an abundance of helpful resources about choosing TF or Not, you're telling these people "run along kid, you'll never get to play with the big boys. Now scram!"

    That's just swell.

    P.S. something is wrong with your keyboard

  6. #66
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    5,127

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Here's the other angle though, on advertising your bees.... I can say I have VSH Mite Biter Russians, but is that what I really have? I've had this discussion with a local commercial beek, and on the point of using those terms to help sell or make your bees more noticeable, he simply asked me... "do I advertise my bees as being resistant?" The short answer is no, even if he had some traits, his point was, if he cannot guarantee every single queen meets the traits as advertised, there's no point in advertising them as such. Also his point was if people want a specific type of bee, he'll let someone else deal with their disappointment when they don't live up to their high expectations.

    On the point of a lot of new TF beeks ignoring mite issues etc.. I don't mean to lump them into a TF bashing incident, it's just easy to single them out I guess. I think the main question is, why is this misconception in reasoning being propagated and by who. I know MB would be the first person to tell them their hive died of mites if in fact that was the case and he was diagnosing it with them. I'd like to hear from some of these people who started these posts, what is their reasoning behind excluding the possibility that mites killed their hives simply because they're adhering to the philosophy of being treatment free when most hard tangible evidence would most likely lead to the conclusion that if you do ignore your mites, it's probably the most likely cause that a hive dies.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Worcester, MA
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    176

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Here's the other angle though, on advertising your bees.... I can say I have VSH Mite Biter Russians, but is that what I really have? I've had this discussion with a local commercial beek, and on the point of using those terms to help sell or make your bees more noticeable, he simply asked me... "do I advertise my bees as being resistant?" The short answer is no, even if he had some traits, his point was, if he cannot guarantee every single queen meets the traits as advertised, there's no point in advertising them as such. Also his point was if people want a specific type of bee, he'll let someone else deal with their disappointment when they don't live up to their high expectations.
    Can you advertise selling packages with a guaranteed "good queen"? The short answer is "no". You can't guarantee anything once they leave the supplier. So, MY point is why not educate your customers. If you care about the beekeeping community and want to keep it going with young people carrying the torch, help them out. Otherwise all the cranky old beeks will be leaving the young curious beeks hanging out to dry when they have so much potential.

  8. #68
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    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    5,127

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    I get your point on educating them grantsbees, but sometimes time is short and you know some people get fixated on a notion and you aren't going to change it. Easier to not waste your time and defer them to someone who will sell them what they want to hear.

  9. #69
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    May 2016
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    Worcester, MA
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    176

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Easier to not waste your time and defer them to someone who will sell them what they want to hear.
    Funny how this is used to justify someone's point which was, in essence, saying they practice something that is not "easy". Sad to hear they are taking the "easy" way out of their phone calls where potential customers are looking for help.

    Never assume the people calling for mite-free bees are not open to learning exactly what that means and what the alternatives are.

    I'm sorry but this subject strikes a nerve with me. My first experience with a supplier was dealing with an owner who came off as very cold and dismissive. He wouldn't even tell you what state he got his bees from. Ironically, this guy runs a "Beekeeping Academy". pfft.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
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    3,330

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    <Snip> Also his point was if people want a specific type of bee, he'll let someone else deal with their disappointment when they don't live up to their high expectations.<Snip>
    I feel strongly enough about this that when I sense someone is jumping in on a faith based treatment free endeavor, then I will not sell to them. I have heard people bad mouthing others over bees they bought and allowed to die, but will admit no personal responsibility. I am just not going to get involved with them.

    Trying to change a persons faith based conviction is not very rewarding.
    Frank

  11. #71
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    Mar 2013
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    598

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Crofter, I will have to agree with your argument to not sell to someone if they will assume no personal responsibility. However, from a business point of view, it is also a good idea not to sell to them. I guided a person in my area to a very reputable package dealer a couple of years ago. This person (the buyer) refused to treat in spite of my urging them to do so on numerous occasions. After their bees died for the second year in a row, they went online badmouthing the seller about the horrible quality of the bees they were sold. I have no doubt the seller lost business because of it. Experienced beekeepers know it was not the sellers fault. New beekeepers, the ones who would be buying the packages, would believe it to be true.

  12. #72
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    May 2016
    Location
    Worcester, MA
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    176

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dudelt View Post
    Crofter, I will have to agree with your argument to not sell to someone if they will assume no personal responsibility. However, from a business point of view, it is also a good idea not to sell to them. I guided a person in my area to a very reputable package dealer a couple of years ago. This person (the buyer) refused to treat in spite of my urging them to do so on numerous occasions. After their bees died for the second year in a row, they went online badmouthing the seller about the horrible quality of the bees they were sold. I have no doubt the seller lost business because of it. Experienced beekeepers know it was not the sellers fault. New beekeepers, the ones who would be buying the packages, would believe it to be true.
    No bees for YOU! (Seinfeld reference)

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Penobscot County, ME, USA
    Posts
    1,083

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by crofter View Post
    I feel strongly enough about this that when I sense someone is jumping in on a faith based treatment free endeavor, then I will not sell to them. I have heard people bad mouthing others over bees they bought and allowed to die, but will admit no personal responsibility. I am just not going to get involved with them.

    Trying to change a persons faith based conviction is not very rewarding.
    It appears to me to be much like trying to convince a Christian Fundamentalist to turn atheist.

    This thread seems to have gone a little sideways. The OP asks for
    "Some advice from a well seasoned beekeeper..."
    , and based on his posting history, description and admission that he just "considered" treatments, the most likely answer is mites...but he doesn't like that answer, and gets snarky about "must be mites" and says
    It's OK. Its my fault. I was warned about going to sites like this. They all just repeat the same thing.
    Well, shoot, mites are a problem for most of us and we know it, but he has fallen victim to some cult-like thinking/advice and refuses to believe it. One way or another, you have to take the existence of mites into account and deal with it...whether that's treating, or making increase faster than your hives crash, or spending every minute of the day picking them off with tweezers. Mites are here and they aren't likely to go away any time in the near future.

    When people talk to me about bees, if they seem to be stuck on the TF bandwagon I'm probably going to cut the conversation short. I just don't have the patience anymore.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    NE PA
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    94

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by grantsbees View Post
    So basically instead of guiding these "inexperienced" people to an abundance of helpful resources about choosing TF or Not, you're telling these people "run along kid, you'll never get to play with the big boys. Now scram!"

    That's just swell.

    P.S. something is wrong with your keyboard
    And there in lies the issue guiding inexperienced. Many on the tf wagon will encourage said inexperienced beginners to jump in feet first resulting in failure. Often times preachers are so busy spreading there message thay fail to observe there audience, you know the ones who cant tell the difference between a virgin queen and a drone. It is my opinion educating that audience should point out the additional challenges of tf and encourage learning basics first before jumping in feet first into more advanced methods , any yes as im shure there's some streight shooters in the crowd. However the number of deluded beginners suggests not nearly enough and thats where the silver bullet bees delusions comes from, its not coming from the pro treatment crowd
    Example.13 new beeks for 16 in our association 11 tf. 2 pro
    Of 11 tf all were done by end of july even the 1 with a successful tf mentor of 2 pro 2 remaning as of end November 1 will fail this winter im sure,,, beeing fair one could say just as with pro treatment 50% are destin to fail however that still leaves a 100% failure rate among 1st time keepers dulusional about better bees and tf. So my point is this i dont have any bitches with tf or you even keeping your tf bees next to mine,vsh crosses by the way. My ***** is the falure among the tf crowd to disclose the full truth. Seems peoplt are all too happy to share how great there genitics are and how sucessfull there genetics are and how wonderfull tf is however rarley do we see much about the down sides and or how tf is a handycap to most beginners who will have a difficult task learning to keep bees while dealing with mites. And again these people aren't getting the idea of great genitcs and a screend bottem board and your golden from the pro crowd. Thats just a fact

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rib Lake WI
    Posts
    1,059

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artur_M View Post
    You want humor? here is the humor:

    The beekeeper has 7 problems and all 7 are about mites
    I don't care who you are now that's funny!

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Glen Ellyn, Illinois
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    I lost a hive after a bout of -15 F weather. Several clusters of bees located on different frames. 2"of dead bees on the bottom board. They had plenty of stores in 2 deep boxes. I treated for mites with OA vapor 2 months prior. My other 3 hives look healthy. It would seem Tracheal Mites may be the culprit?

  17. #77

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpekarek View Post
    It would seem Tracheal Mites may be the culprit?
    Welcome.
    What would make you suspect tracheal mites?
    -15F is pretty cold.....
    OAV may or may not be an effective treatment depending on when and how it is applied.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Glen Ellyn, Illinois
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Welcome.
    What would make you suspect tracheal mites?
    -15F is pretty cold.....
    OAV may or may not be an effective treatment depending on when and how it is applied.
    Tracheal mites was just a guess. The OA treatment seemed to be effective. I tested my 4 hives twice after treatment using a wash. That die-out had no varroa mites on one test and 1 mite on the second test. The hive had an estimates 30,000+ bees. My hives are protected from the winds and moisture wasn't evident in the hive. There was 50+ pounds of honey and pollen in the hive when the hive was lost. The bees that were still on the frames were in 6 or 7 separate clusters in the hive. I read somewhere that separate winter clusters may indicate tracheal mites. I'm a 1st timer, so any insight you can give is appreciated.

    Chris

  19. #79

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpekarek View Post
    I'm a 1st timer, so any insight you can give is appreciated.

    Chris
    First....you treated for varroa in October/November in IL? Very late to be effective. Although it may knock down a lot of mites, the damage had already been done. The winter bees....bees that must be the most durable.....had already been parasitized. As a result you probably went into winter with sickly/weakened bees.
    If, going forward you choose to use oav as your primary mite control you might reexamine the timing and repetition cycles to get the best results.

    Second....in my experience multiple, separate winter clusters may indicate queen issues. Queen pheromones along with brood pheromones are the glue that draws the bees together.

    Good luck.
    Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Glen Ellyn, Illinois
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: Cold snap brought tragedy... but did it?

    We were in the mid to upper 60's into the 1st week of November. I treated in mid-October with OA. Next year I guess I will treat earlier. Thanks

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