Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112
Results 221 to 240 of 240
  1. #221
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Rosebud Missouri
    Posts
    1,582

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    River
    I get the gist of it well enough to move forward. I think our fall flow was closer to the month of september and first frost early october and so in the end there is no cookie cutter method untill I watch a few years and put what you said to my area.
    Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond to my question. It all helps. My friend is a tipper also but can not tip my hives because they are made out of every kind of wood known to man and so the wares do not all weigh the same. Last year I just picked a date and lifted each box guessed what I was missing, added three gal and a sugar block and called it a day. My hives were sub standard size wise and so now I am wanting to graduate to the big boy hives and judge well enough to not feed also. I will get there.
    Thanks
    gww
    zone 5b

  2. #222
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    2,019

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by lharder View Post
    I have had quite a bit of death in my second year hives, but I believe some cream has risen to the top and I may have identified some promising genetics.
    This sort of self-delusion is not credible. Just to give sense of scale, the avocado variety breeding trials (for Mexican mite resistance) I was involved in had 64,000 initial crosses from selected stock, to be followed by 64,000 F2 and F3 crosses from the promising candidates of the initial cohort. Avocados, of course, can be backcrossed, selfed (with pollen storage), and the selections can be cloned indefinitely. Contributing varieties are typed and trialed, and crosses are known. Candidate size is calculated from Fst ratios and heritability of observed traits.

    Harder started with 8 or so queens from 3 sources (Hawaiian, Saskatraz, and what not) if I remember correctly. Open-mated, that initial stock will submerge in the "mutt" pool. Colony death by mischance will ensure that the remaining stock is essentially random in nature.

    Harder has generated random mutts, which he claims is cream. That is his perogative, and every year yet more amateurs market so-called survivors for king's ransom to the guillible.

    The credible breeding programs have selection n= 5000 to >10,000. Backyard breeding generates mutts of the landrace local to the area.

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Byron, Il, USA
    Posts
    102

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    This sort of self-delusion is not credible.

    The credible breeding programs have selection n= 5000 to >10,000. Backyard breeding generates mutts of the landrace local to the area.
    Mutts of the local landraces have been under fierce selection pressure by mites since the 1990s, across the entire northern hemisphere. The backyard breeder with a half-dozen hives isn't going to make much progress, but he is starting with stock descended from an order of magnitude greater numbers than your 64,000.

  4. #224
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    2,019

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by AR1 View Post
    Mutts of the local landraces have been under fierce selection pressure by mites since the 1990s, across the entire northern hemisphere. The backyard breeder with a half-dozen hives isn't going to make much progress, but he is starting with stock descended from an order of magnitude greater numbers than your 64,000.
    In trial after trial, those local mutts are vulnerable to Varroa. Only in the fevered dreams of the descendants of Dr. Pangloss do they show mite resistance.

  5. #225
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    west central Arkansas
    Posts
    961

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    In trial after trial, those local mutts are vulnerable to Varroa.
    Local is a lot of different places. Do you have literature on trial studies on local areas around Hamilton, AL or Shreveport, LA? Are all varroa and related viruses created equal in all locale?

  6. #226
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    2,520

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    In trial after trial, those local mutts are vulnerable to Varroa.
    For perspective, how many colonies did you dedicate to breeding for mite resistance? Were you within a couple of orders of magnitude of the "credible breeding program" suggested above?

    How do you explain the ability of bees to manage mites at least in some locations?
    NW Alabama, 47 years, 22 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  7. #227
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Byron, Il, USA
    Posts
    102

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    In trial after trial, those local mutts are vulnerable to Varroa. Only in the fevered dreams of the descendants of Dr. Pangloss do they show mite resistance.
    Mites are a parasite adapted to attack honey bees. Of course the bees still remain vulnerable. It's a situation roughly similar to the American Indian when first exposed to European diseases. 90% of the population died in the first generation, and large numbers for generations after. And, significantly, lots of Europeans died then and continue to die from those same diseases, but not in the same order of numbers.

    What I hope for is a population that is in a stable equilibrium with the mites and their load of viruses. Hives will continue to die, probably forever, as the mites and viruses evolve in tandem with the bees. Some races of bees already show considerable resistance, Africans for example seem to have no trouble maintaining high wild populations. You seem to be saying that it is flat out impossible for bees in North America to survive without constant interventions. That doesn't appear to be true. They may not be the happy, humble, gentle Italians from the pre-mite era, but beekeepers kept bees before Italians became popular too.

  8. #228
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,174

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    This is where understanding the overlay of varroa mites' life cycle with bees' life cycle is important to understanding how brood breaks actually affect the ratio of the populations of bees and mites in the hive.
    This study may be of some help: https://eurekamag.com/pdf.php?pdf=002705986. If I understand the study, it shows that, if a cohort of phoretic mites is removed from brood and placed with adult bees, the average additional life expectancy of the mites is thirty-one days and the maximum additional life span of individual mites in the cohort is "around ninety" days. (By the way, this maximum "additional" lifespan is likely close to the actual "total" maximum life expectancy of an adult female varroa mite because of the likelihood that some of the mites in the cohorts studied had only recently emerged from the cell in which they were born.) The study apparently shows that between 20% and 60% of the mites die within the first twenty days after the brood is removed. If this study accurately reflects the longevity of varroa mites in the absence of bee brood, it helps explain why those varroa infestation charts show low rates of infestation on January 1. And, likewise, those charts corroborate the study's findings.
    David

  9. #229
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kamloops, BC, Canada
    Posts
    964

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    This sort of self-delusion is not credible. Just to give sense of scale, the avocado variety breeding trials (for Mexican mite resistance) I was involved in had 64,000 initial crosses from selected stock, to be followed by 64,000 F2 and F3 crosses from the promising candidates of the initial cohort. Avocados, of course, can be backcrossed, selfed (with pollen storage), and the selections can be cloned indefinitely. Contributing varieties are typed and trialed, and crosses are known. Candidate size is calculated from Fst ratios and heritability of observed traits.

    Harder started with 8 or so queens from 3 sources (Hawaiian, Saskatraz, and what not) if I remember correctly. Open-mated, that initial stock will submerge in the "mutt" pool. Colony death by mischance will ensure that the remaining stock is essentially random in nature.

    Harder has generated random mutts, which he claims is cream. That is his perogative, and every year yet more amateurs market so-called survivors for king's ransom to the guillible.

    The credible breeding programs have selection n= 5000 to >10,000. Backyard breeding generates mutts of the landrace local to the area.
    My star queen was a local mutt and not a product of my lack of brilliance and she is still doing great. But it may mean I have some background genetics to work with. Her daughters are pretty good too...so far. Time will tell. I'm actually selling bees into the local community so far, so my genetic reach is starting to extend. I had a customer come visit me and she thought the bees looked awesome. How is your tf yard JW?

    Meanwhile, it an exciting time in the apiary. My main concern is not dying but swarming. I have some strong hives coming out of winter and I'm adding boxes. The whole apiary is gathering momentum, even the weak colonies coming out of winter. Some overwintered nucs are in 5 medium boxes already and the daytime highs haven't reached 70 yet. I'm finding it hard to find days to do pleasant bee work in. Pop the lid, lift some boxes, find lots of bees in all the boxes, add boxes. My warmest site is just beginning to bring in excess nectar. The others are a week or so behind it.

    Just as a note, my official hive count coming out of spring is 35. That is queen right hives with brood. Went into winter with about 60. Slightly more than 50%. Last year at this time, I was at 16 hives.

  10. #230
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    8,177

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverderwent View Post
    This study may be of some help: https://eurekamag.com/pdf.php?pdf=002705986.
    There is a possible flaw in that study.

    Their results differ from other studies done on varroa longevity, and also with a trial I did myself. However they do mention the other studies including one finding mites living up to a year, so at least they are not hiding anything.

    To the flaw. There are some bees that treatment free folks like to refer to as "mite biters", and some bees that have none of this trait. The study used bees they described as Apis mellifera iberica, but no mention was made about any mite resistant traits these bees had or didn't have. If they were "mite biters", and there was no brood, the short lifespan of the mites could have been due to that. This could explain the difference in findings between this study and other studies.

    My own experiment, I kept bees broodless for 48 days, and at the end there were nearly as many mites as there had been at the beginning, which led me to conclude if the mites are not breeding they live longer. That was using gentle, non mite resistant italians, which obviously did not do any damage to phoretic mites.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  11. #231
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Germany, BW
    Posts
    862

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    In trial after trial, those local mutts are vulnerable to Varroa.
    Trial after trial, those bred " mite resistant queens" are vulnerable to local virus.


    . If they were "mite biters", and there was no brood, the short lifespan of the mites could have been due to that. This could explain the difference in findings between this study and other studies.

    My own experiment, I kept bees broodless for 48 days, and at the end there were nearly as many mites as there had been at the beginning, which led me to conclude if the mites are not breeding they live longer. That was using gentle, non mite resistant italians, which obviously did not do any damage to phoretic mites.
    OT, there are many who say a brood brake will not help. Could be, after a long winter brood brake there should be no mites left, but there are. How prolific are they?

    If the mite biting trait is a learned behavior and not a genetic trait a brood brake could eliminate this behavior. Is there evidence it is genetically determined? Im not informed about this.
    Alois Wallner breeds mite biters but they do VSH also and he still treats a part of his stock.
    Listen to good advice, then.... make your own decision. fusion_power
    www.vivabiene.de

  12. #232
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    2,287

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by AR1 View Post
    Mutts of the local landraces have been under fierce selection pressure by mites since the 1990s, across the entire northern hemisphere. The backyard breeder with a half-dozen hives isn't going to make much progress, but he is starting with stock descended from an order of magnitude greater numbers than your 64,000.
    Adding to that we can note Manley's wisdom:

    "In most farm stock stress is laid particularly on the male because he may
    sire a large number of offspring, whereas the direct progeny of the
    female are very limited in number. Now we breeders of hive-bees
    have the great advantage over those who have to do with most
    domestic animals in that from one desirable breeding queen we can
    readily produce a virtually unlimited number of young queens.
    Though in a state of nature a honey-bee queen would only produce
    half a dozen or so daughter queens, and maybe a couple of thousand
    drones, in the hands of a competent breeder she can be made to give
    an almost unlimited number of both.

    It is usually considered that too much in-breeding may lead to
    deterioration in the stamina and fecundity of animals, though about
    this there is some disagreement. When there is no trace of any bad or
    degenerate strain in the stock, in-breeding does no harm, I think; but
    unless one is quite sure that this is the case, it is probably better to
    arrange, as far as possible, in our breeding apiaries, that the drones
    flying there shall be produced by queens of the very highest
    character, while the young queens with which they are expected to
    mate shall be derived from breeder queens of a different strain, but
    equally outstanding qualities. In this way, although it is impossible to
    be certain that all matings will be as desired, yet it can be managed
    that a very large proportion of our young queens will be the product
    of the male and female parents from which we wish them to be
    derived."

    R.O.B. Manley, Honey Farming, page 62 of the pdf, 83 of the book
    http://www.biobees.com/library/gener...gROBManley.pdf

    In the beneficial ambient environment of a thriving feral population effective selective reproduction can progressively raise desirable traits like productivity in the immediate location. The more productive stocks will have an influence on the immediate feral population, in an effect extending outward in vaguely concentric circles, meeting opposing traits pressing inward. The larger the apiary (and the more effective the selection, and, up to a point, the longer it goes on for), the more pronounced this effect will be.

    If at any time the pressure toward productivity ceases, yes, the apiary genetics will 'submerge in the mutt-pool'.

    An analogy: 'a shark must keep swimming or it will sink.' Likewise selective genetic husbandry must keep selecting (effectively) or it will cease to have any effect.

    While the apiary is being kept in good condition by ambient natural selection and (effective) beekeeper selection, offspring can fairly be described and sold as 'treatment free and productive.'

    Mike
    The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

  13. #233
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    8,177

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by SiWolKe View Post
    If the mite biting trait is a learned behavior and not a genetic trait a brood brake could eliminate this behavior. Is there evidence it is genetically determined? Im not informed about this.
    No idea, nobody here claims to have any mite biters so I've never seen one. However about the debate if the behavior is learned, best I've been able to follow it, the idea bees teach it to each other was first proposed as a hypothesis, gained popular acceptance, but has not been demonstrated in a properly done study.

    To me anyway, most bee behavior is genetic, however they can learn, and an experiment showed bumblebees learning by watching other bumblebees. So to me the jury is out. But one of the first things I noticed about beekeepers when I first started is the amount of whacky ideas people come up with so I never jump on any theory till it has some real life evidence.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  14. #234
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    2,520

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    The funny thing with bees is how many of those "wacky" ideas turn out to be valid.
    NW Alabama, 47 years, 22 colonies and growing, sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 14 frame square Dadant broodnest

  15. #235
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    8,177

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Like I say FP, once there is real life evidence, I'll climb aboard.

    As a young kid with my first few bees, long before either varroa or the internet, I joined the local bee club. Most others there were old guys who had bees for years and I took everything they said as gospel. Later I got a job with a commercial beekeeper and end of that season returned to my hometown for the holidays and again visited the bee club. Only then, I realised what a load of trollop some of those guys had been telling me, which I now was able to discern by real world experience.

    I know what it is to be new, gullible, and easily led, I have been there.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  16. #236
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Germany, BW
    Posts
    862

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    till it has some real life evidence.
    Beekeepers dont want this evidence.

    They regard bees as they treat little kids, thinking they have to show them how to behave.
    But bees are not to be mentored.

    Bees which have traits to survive are regarded as bad because those traits dont correlate with what beekeepers want.
    Listen to good advice, then.... make your own decision. fusion_power
    www.vivabiene.de

  17. #237
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,174

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    My own experiment, I kept bees broodless for 48 days, and at the end there were nearly as many mites as there had been at the beginning, which led me to conclude if the mites are not breeding they live longer. That was using gentle, non mite resistant italians, which obviously did not do any damage to phoretic mites.
    What time of year was this? Could there have been horizontal transfer?
    David

  18. #238
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    8,177

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    It was maybe 10 years ago and straight up, beyond it was summer, I cannot remember just what month/s it was done. Cannot rule horizontal transfer out anything is possible I guess, but my feeling is they were just bees with no varroa fighting ability at all. No robbing going on and they were just some hives in the yard of our house. The queens were in the hives but caged.

    This is not to debunk any findings by anyone else, just, my take is that some bees will get rid of mites, and some won't. The linked study did not factor that in.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

  19. #239
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    2,174

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    Thank you for the response. Given how little research I can dig up on the longevity of varroa in a broodless hive, your homemade test makes you a leading expert in the field. I'm trying to reconcile your findings with the 1994 study. If the difference were mite biting by Iberian bees in 1994, that in itself would be significant.
    David

  20. #240
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    8,177

    Default Re: Riverderwent Survival Treatment Free 2017

    They reference some other studies on page 611 of the linked study.
    "Thinking Inside The Box"

Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •