Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 79 of 79
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    4,336

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    knowing vs assuming is very important when drawing conclusions.
    so if you knew what would you do different? The hive I had, I isolated, have never removed anything from the hive for the last 3 years, the hives survives, is the virus still in the hive? Can I reuse the supers? can I bring other hives back into the apiary? when the hive dies, I will burn the entire hive and bees.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    34,272

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Mike, you missed another great meeting of the Empire State Honey Producers Association, Inc, these last two days. Had you been there you could have talked to Paul Cappy and/or Emma Mullen about this question and maybe have gotten an answer. Maybe not. You'll never know.
    Mark Berninghausen

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    8,178

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Don't burn it.

    Not that i'm very knowledgeable about viruses, but what I do know, is if everyone burned any hive that ever had a virus there would not be a lot of hives left.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    4,336

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Mike, you missed another great meeting of the Empire State Honey Producers Association, Inc, these last two days. Had you been there you could have talked to Paul Cappy and/or Emma Mullen about this question and maybe have gotten an answer. Maybe not. You'll never know.
    I know they all have been good since you took over, and you even moved the date but had a more important commitment , but since none of the researchers have come up with an answer I'm not sure what they would have been able to add any information.
    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    34,272

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Don't burn it.

    Not that i'm very knowledgeable about viruses, but what I do know, is if everyone burned any hive that ever had a virus there would not be a lot of hives left.
    But if he did burn it and replaced it with new frames and new wax foundation he'd probably have healthier hives. And just as many.
    Mark Berninghausen

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    34,272

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    I know they all have been good since you took over,
    All credit to Chuck Kutik.
    Mark Berninghausen

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    9,049

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    so if you knew what would you do different? The hive I had, I isolated, have never removed anything from the hive for the last 3 years, the hives survives, is the virus still in the hive? Can I reuse the supers? can I bring other hives back into the apiary? when the hive dies, I will burn the entire hive and bees.
    You haven't, but so many assumptions land on farmers laps.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    6,632

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Not sure about the virus and the bees being able to survive after this incident.
    If the bees' immune system are strong then they can survive after the attack.
    I would imagine a virus just like a cold virus that it comes and goes at a particular season.
    So the virus never go away just there lingering until the right time to manifest themselves.
    A little bee experiment I would like to do is to requeen this hive. Sometimes changing to a
    more resistant or stronger bees will help. Whether or not to put more hives back to the same
    yard depends on how comfortable you are as a beekeeper to risk it.
    Don't mix foreign bees into a virgin hive. She might get balled 100% of the time! When will you ever learn, huh?

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
    Posts
    4,336

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Don't burn it.

    Not that i'm very knowledgeable about viruses, but what I do know, is if everyone burned any hive that ever had a virus there would not be a lot of hives left.
    I try to keep my eye open for information about this stuff, here is a post from bee-l debating this very subject.

    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...&F=&S=&P=31928

    You may be correct about the field-realistic exposure levels, yet we find that for some viruses, we can't reuse the combs. In 2010, I put the combs from a collapsed colony into an observation hive wired to monitor bee flight activity. Within 3 months the collapse played out just as one would expect. Best that we could determine, the bees introduced were thriving when placed into the hive.
    Finally, and I will admit this is also anecdotal, since USDA never saw fit to fund our doing continuing research on this, but I see some specific bee operations that still show all of the signs of contagious disease, with recurring collapses every 3-5 year. I'm talking about the colony collapses, dwindling, catastrophic loss (whatever you want to call it), first made public in 2006, still occurring, but now it is more routinely not reported publicly or only reported with lots of caveats of why it is not CCD.


    Hence we get reports that catastrophic collapses and losses no longer occur or are infrequent, when in fact they still occur - but these incidents have become more restricted, mainly to the same set of beekeepers. And, as we know from last winter, if someone else buys one of these operations, the problem follows the equipment and the bees, it's not the beekeepers managing the newly purchased bee operation.
    so what I have been doing since ccd came along, if I have a hive that dies and I don't know why, I mark the boxes and use those boxes only on one hive, so far all have survived.
    in the case of the one hive that I know had a virus, when they die, they are marked to burn, not worth taking out a bunch of hives reusing the equipment, it's not that expensive.

    just dawned on me, he was referencing somebody specific with this, what large out fit has been sold in the last couple of years?

    And, as we know from last winter, if someone else buys one of these operations, the problem follows the equipment and the bees, it's not the beekeepers managing the newly purchased bee operation.
    and how do you feel now ordering nucs and packages from some of these large outfits? especially with Toslin and terramycin going away the first of the year?

    mike syracuse ny
    Whatever you subsidize you get more of. Ronald Reagan

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Penobscot County, ME, USA
    Posts
    1,083

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I know guys who quit using it completely because of the harsh nature on the queens and late brood.
    I also know a guy who swears by manually applying formic.

    Will you go with a sure bet? Or a hope it works and doesn't kill my hives...
    The problem with the statement "I know guys who quit using it completely because..." is that it requires you to make an assumption, actually several, instead of 'knowing'. You 'assume' that they are telling the truth, and getting the details correct; you 'assume' that they followed the instructions properly; you 'assume' that they actually experienced queen & brood loss, and that it occurred despite proper application; and you 'assume' that they have correctly deduced the appropriate cause and effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    knowing vs assuming is very important when drawing conclusions.
    Yes, quite. We -know- that if MAQS is improperly applied, particularly at temperatures above the recommended maximum, it -will- kill queens and brood.

    And in my own experience, I -know- that if I adhere strictly to the instructions with particular attention to temperature, I do -not- experience queen/brood loss.

    Will you go with a sure bet? Or a hope it works and doesn't kill my hives...
    Unfortunately, since I have no control over your application methods and attention to details/adherence to instructions, it would be foolish of me to 'assume' that you would have the desired result.

    As far as the 'guys you know'...since we -know- that improper application -will- result in loss, which is the more likely assumption- that they did everything correctly and still experienced negative results; or that they applied incorrectly and experienced an -expected- result?
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Suffolk, NY, USA
    Posts
    2,860

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by BadBeeKeeper View Post

    And in my own experience, I -know- that if I adhere strictly to the instructions with particular attention to temperature, I do -not- experience queen/brood loss.
    I know that if I adhere strictly to the instructions I have still experienced occasional queen and brood loss.

    It appears you have neglected to consider the condition of the bees prior to treatment as mentioned previously. Already weakened colonies (queens, brood, bees) may not survive the MAQS treatment. Where is the weak/not weak line before treatment? I don't know, but sure know which were too weak to handle the treatment afterwards. Following the instructions to a T can still cause loss. It is of no surprise that some are hesitant or have decided not to use formic.
    This is my experience with formic acid treatments as my primary treatment method for over 10 years, no assumptions or second hand accounts.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Liberty Hill, Texas
    Posts
    526

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1958 View Post
    At my second year I decided I was going to be a beekeeper. I liked the one hive and wanted more. I built up and bought, split, grabbed a swarm. I got to 20 hives. Came out of winter with 2 hives. I then built up to 30 hives and had 6 survive. Then I learned about mites and treatments. I have 18 hives and I expect to have all but 1 survive. Sometimes it takes time to learn to be a beekeeper. We have things thrown at us, some have it easier, some harder but we learn. What I mean is I've been there and it's no fun to go to the bee yard and have no bees.
    I have read up a lot about mite cycles in bee hives. Going into winter they grow in population as do coming out of winter. Now look at the info and hopefully people will treat now if they've not. Think about it.... Bees don't really go out away from the hive, so mites are like CHOW TIME 24 7 for 5 months! HECK YAH!

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    9,049

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by BadBeeKeeper View Post
    As far as the 'guys you know'...since we -know- that improper application -will- result in loss, which is the more likely assumption- that they did everything correctly and still experienced negative results; or that they applied incorrectly and experienced an -expected- result?
    if your happy running the risk of brood and queen damage, go crazy!
    That risk looms, and needs to be taken seriously

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Tsawwassen, BC, Canada
    Posts
    461

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    This discussion is almost word for word the topic that I have seen dominate club meetings, often resulting in shouting matches, hard feelings and schisms. Many clubs have Treatment Free (and I use that term loosely because the advocates are rarely free, just light) gurus who often get newbees to go TF with disastrous results. If TF is possible, it is not an entry level enterprise, particularly if you live in a bee-dense area.

    FWIW I would rather leave the whole question of whether a meaningfully Varroa resistant bee can be bred...to someone with the resources, discipline and documentation skills to do it well.

    I think several well known figures in the bee world are hard at work on this topic, which is good: if they find it can be done (and in all the years of survivor beeyards nobody seems to have cracked this nut) great, if not, we can put this strategy to bed and bend our energies to seeking an effective solution(s).

    Meanwhile, can we encourage our new beekeepers to at least use the organic acids so that their colonies do not suffer the ravages of Varroasis? Most of the calls we go out on to help beekeepers in trouble trace back to ineffective Varroa control. It is sad to see new beekeepers give up because their bees keep dying. They should not have to feel they need to reinvent the bee genome! Let them keep bees and keep them healthy so they can at least learn what the optimal arc of development is for a strong colony over an entire season.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Penobscot County, ME, USA
    Posts
    1,083

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    if your happy running the risk of brood and queen damage, go crazy!
    That risk looms, and needs to be taken seriously
    Risk? What risk?

    I have been applying MAQS since 2011. In doing so, I pay -strict- attention to the instructions- never exceeding the temperature window, strips are installed cold in -exactly- the correct location depicted in the diagram, and an extra box provided for at least the first 2-3 days. In this time, I have -never- experienced queen or brood damage.

    Based on my -experience-, if the instructions are followed -precisely-, the results are as expected and no damage occurs.

    From this, I deduce that most (if not all) of the stories damage are -most likely- due to misapplication- excessively high temperatures and/or improper location of the strips and/or failure to provide extra room.

    I may be lazy (at times), I may be a procrastinator, but I am not stupid and, in many cases I am a perfectionist...especially with something like this (I have been working with acids for decades and I am educated in chemistry/organic chemistry, including post-secondary).

    So, what I am doing is successful, and I will keep on doing it.

    I can't control what other people do, nor can I control their results. I can see how damage would be likely to occur if the instructions are not followed correctly.

    All I'm doing is relating my experience- what I've done and how it has worked for me.

    If you want to believe stories of disaster, without having any knowledge of the details of the application and whether or not the instructions were followed precisely, that's your prerogative. The devil is in the details, isn't it?

    Rather than simply being fearful of hearsay and rumors in which you lack knowledge of the accuracy of the procedure, you -could- do an experiment and gain some first-hand knowledge. Set up a group of hives and follow the instructions precisely. Set up a second group of hives and deliberately mis-apply the product- Temperature too high, strips directly over/under the broodnest(s), no extra room provided. Then evaluate the results.

    I can predict -now- what your results are likely to be- if you mis-apply the product, you will see brood damage and queen loss. This is not surprising, it is an expected result of mis-application.

    In the words of Robert Ripley, believe it or not...or find out for yourself.
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    9,049

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Mr. BadBeeKeeper
    It is my prerogative to pass on beekeeping related experiences, and my validity rests on my reputation.
    A little bit of dispute of the legitimacy of my comments will not change that

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Penobscot County, ME, USA
    Posts
    1,083

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Mr. BadBeeKeeper
    It is my prerogative to pass on beekeeping related experiences, and my validity rests on my reputation.
    A little bit of dispute of the legitimacy of my comments will not change that
    It is the validity of your -sources- that I question, not you or your reputation. IIRC, you have a somewhat large operation and a not inconsiderable amount of experience of your own. It seemed to he, however, that what you were relating was not your experience, but hearsay- things told to you by third-parties. Or am I mistaken?
    If you want to be successful, study successful people and do what they do.
    Zone 4a/b

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    9,049

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    Yes, good trusted neighbours
    >>this ain't no secret!!<<

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miami, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    9,049

    Default Re: Apiary Is Collapsing

    One fellow who quit using the MAQS, who had been using their earlier products for nearly 10 years, told me he'd rather use their old product

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •