Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Compact Brood Nest

12K views 40 replies 16 participants last post by  JimD 
#1 ·
After reading, and reading, and reading Bernard's method of a compact brood nest, I'm thinking I want to try a hive this way, but I have problems and questions.

~One is it's very hard to get a real Buckfast queen, much less bee package, here in TX. How would Italians work? Any other breeds that could work?

~I have an opportunity to buy a 10 frame hive right now, in a Lang deep with mutt bees. Why can't this work with a Lang deep? I can't buy a deeper hive here.
Can't I just use 6-7 frames with a following board? A deep frame has about 8000 cells (5.1 mm).

~How would this be overwintered here in the warm south, in just the deep box? Would it need a super of honey? Would a QE be used during the winter if a 2nd box was put on top during the winter? Would the following board be used all year round with just 6-7 frames?

While these questions are primarily directed at Bernhard, I welcome anyone's response, especially experience beeks here in the south.
 
#6 ·
Most of my queens are happy to stay in a single deep, even when given 2 or more deep boxes. I shift frames so brood is in both boxes and 3 weeks later it is all back on a single. This is not the case with mediums. The queen doesn't seem to have any trouble keeping 2 mediums vertical filled and if I leave it unrestricted, she will chimney straight up to the top.

After reading the way Bernhard is running his extra deeps, I started playing with a restricted medium setup. I have 2 mediums with 6 frames and a follower board (or empty frame feeder) each on the bottom under an excluder. The outer side of the outside frames stay pollen and nectar. The rest stayed solid brood. This is also one of my larger and definitely more defensive (AHB influence?) hives.

I like the management style. I know where the queen should be, so there isn't much searching. I'm just completing the process of removing all the deep frames from my world. I like the single frame size for flexibility and the quick scan of the smaller frame.

Then I start toying with building frames that will basically be the same as 2 stacked mediums. (No! Don't do it! you don't want to build frames from scratch again...but it would only be end bars and it would make pulling frames easier....Really, NO!, :no: Be content with such things as you have...) Ok, well I already have another 100 medium frames to assemble this "winter". The mental anguish....
 
#7 ·
After reading the way Bernhard is running his extra deeps, I started playing with a restricted medium setup. I have 2 mediums with 6 frames and a follower board (or empty frame feeder) each on the bottom under an excluder. The outer side of the outside frames stay pollen and nectar. The rest stayed solid brood. This is also one of my larger and definitely more defensive (AHB influence?) hives.
Can you elaborate a little more on this? Is this two separate hives, each with a single medium for brood? Is it a 10 frame sized box? How's the honey production comparison?
 
#8 ·
I made the change after our main flow, so honey production opinion will have to wait until next year. However, they filled a super after I harvested where other did not. It "feels" like they will do better, but that may be wishful thinking.

Another problem I had this summer looked to be a poisoning event; I suspect nighttime mosquito spray. All my hives were bearding heavily one day and the next not. On further inspection, tons of dead bees on the ground in front of the hives. It has been an experimenting and learning Summer.

In any case, they have proven to have a better brood pattern with the restricted broodnest. They rebounded faster than the other hives and I just made a split from them with a supersedure cell from another hive. (So people don't jump on me: I did this to make sure I got a mated queen before the old one gets an alcohol bath. I had a colony successfully requeen in December last year, but I don't see many drones around right now and don't want to count on it.)

I use all 8-frame equipment. So, it is setup as below:

migratorytop
HHHHHHHH --- H = Honey
HHHHHHHH --- H = Honey
HHHHHHHH --- H = Honey
HHHHHHHH --- I figure this box is for them, but would leave uncapped frames.
XXXXXXXXX --- queen excluder
BBBBBBFss
BBBBBBFss --- B = brood, F = follower, s = open space
bottomboard

My follower is either an empty frame feeder or 1/2" R-Matte foam. Some of them went through the "aluminum" facing and are having a time with the foam. Since the frame drowners work well for this I may stick with them or I'll find a better solution than the foam.

If I have more than a small nuc I run 4"x3/8" entrance on the bottom. With > 1 super on I prop up the top cover to provide an entrance up there. Some bottoms are screened with oil pans, others are solid; about 50-50 right now depending on SHB.

I currently have 8 full colonies, 3 dinks that have had varroa problems, and the 1 new one with a QC. My yard is too small for that many bees at full strength, so I'll be splitting and moving most of them to another location in the early Spring.
 
#9 ·
How would Italians work? Any other breeds that could work?
Of course. But the Buckfast are really the best bees I worked with. And when you put the best bee into the best hive, you get best results. I don't know, of course, how the Canadian Buckfast compare to ours here. So I wouldn't trouble about too much. Just avoid Carnolians. :p

Why can't this work with a Lang deep? ...
Can't I just use 6-7 frames with a following board? A deep frame has about 8000 cells (5.1 mm).
It is not only the brood space that matters, also the beekeeper's comfort while working and some special tricks you can do with a 12 frame Dadant, that makes beekeeping so much easier. Far less work with a 12 frame Dadant. If I were you to try this, I either would build one myself or find a woodworker doing it. You probably never understand what I mean if you try to copy the one half of the method, leaving out the other half. So go for a 12 frame Dadant, modified by Brother Adam.

We have (almost) the same situation here in Germany, where a lot of people want to try it, but won't let go their equipment they have. So they start modifying their existent stuff. We now have a lot of conventional hives with more deeper frames and so. But they couldn't even nearly achieve the potential of the Brother Adam hive.

As said, if I were you, I'd get the plans of the Dadant hive modified by Brother Adam and get me someone to build some of them. Shook a swarm into it, and give it a go.

How would this be overwintered here in the warm south, in just the deep box? Would it need a super of honey?
Wintering in one deep box is just fine, even in the coldest regions in Germany. Not a problem at all. As I already wrote, you can get a lot of winter stores into that deep. One frame holds up to 4 kg of winter food, which is about 9 pound. Usually you have four frames of brood with a honey dome above it, if you feed them well and all other frames hold food, 8 frames by 4 kg per frame = 32 kg of winter stores. That is 70 pounds. That is fairly enough for even very long winters.

Consumption with brood present = 4 kg per month; without brood = 1 kg per month. Count your winter months with and without brood, and this is what you need for winter stores.

Beespace above the frames plus a thick insulation on top is important (in all sorts of hives).

Would the following board be used all year round with just 6-7 frames?
Not all year round, just within the honey season. So once you harvested the last honey, feed and increase the number of frames until the box is full. I feed up to 10-12 frames and make my last splits in October, taking 2-4 combs out of one hive, making a new hive from 2-4 hives. This way I get some more extra hives for winter and this is how I can make use of my spare queens that I made in my mating nucs and kept as reserve until October. Although I have mating hives that can be wintered, I also have small mating nucs (Apidea mating nuc that is) that can't be wintered. My queens go into full hives, that are good producers next Spring.

Here I winter on 8 frames. No real winter here. Just a couple of days (not weeks) with frost, flying weather well into December, some weeks in January and February no flying activity, but usually they go out on end of February for their first pollen.
 
#32 ·
...Buckfast are really the best bees I worked with. And when you put the best bee into the best hive, you get best results. I don't know, of course, how the Canadian Buckfast compare to ours here...
Bernhard, ( agreed :) )

Do you think you see a higher level of tolerance to mite induced viruses with you're Buckfast? Having read a bit about the European Buckfast groups, it appears that resistance is a trait that is being pursued/incorporated. While there may be environmental (mite limiting) factors at play here, it would appear that the "Canadian" Buckfast may be exhibiting at least some resistance.

The Canadians are essentially Danish Buckfast - the annual source of their breeders. Where do yours originate from?
 
#11 ·
It really works best with square supers. I've seen that just from my partial year using them. I especially like the ability to flip a super any direction needed.

The other manipulation I really like is the ability to slide frames instead of removing them from the hive. It saves a lot of time and effort.
 
#21 ·
This is a follow-up post.

All of my hives looked good. I had one that never got a mated queen, so they joined another hive. That leaves me 9 colonies going into "winter". I left them all in a 6 over 6 configuration with follower boards in the bottom 2 boxes and they have 8 frames of mostly capped honey in a 3rd on top; no queen excluders. If I need to feed, I'll shift 2 down and drop a frame feeder in the top.

No matter what configuration they were in, they all had about 6 hand sized areas of brood. Mostly capped with some larva and eggs.

Regarding the frames above the excluder: No gap of any nature, all honey. I'm using plastic excluders that are in contact with the top of the frames. Other than being stuck down, they don't seem to impact anything. I'm thinking about adding a 5/16" shim around the edge and across the middle to lift them a little to minimize that, but it seems like nit-picking. I may do it for 10, but I wouldn't for 100.

Last year with deep brood combs, all of the brood was together and they formed the "classic" dome. This year in all mediums I noticed they are forming a dome on each frame in both the top and bottom boxes. It appears more like 2 separate brood areas in the hive with the queen actively laying in both. As time goes on, they may fill one and only have one zone. This may be a vote for a single large frame of the same area instead of two smaller frames, but I sure like the having the same size frames everywhere. When they are brooding up it doesn't seem to matter. Has anyone else noticed this behavior with mediums for brood?
 
#18 ·
I just did a quick read of thread. Doesn't R. Weaver in Texas have Buckfast Queens? Are they not real Buckfast? I have one hive started with a R. Weaver package and queen. The queen that is in the the hive now I believe to be the daughter of my first R. Weaver queen. I plan to requeen next year to go back to "full" buckfast bees.
I'll have to go back and do some reading about what you and Bernhard are using as hive sizes.
I am doing last fall inspection of my hives hopefully tomorrow. I plan to winter my buckfast hive in 3 medium 8 frames.

Mary
 
#19 ·
I'm certainly no expert; just trying to figure things out. If you are referencing me, I'm definitely not in the same class as Bernhard!

All mine are from cut-outs and local splits. They say they all have some level of AHB influence down here. I've thought about purchasing a few queens, but have not yet. From what I have been told, all of the Weaver queen lines have crossed to some extent. I know both companies have worked hard to get the excessive defensive behavior out. I don't know how close to "Buckfast" they really are.

The AHB traits seem to encourage swarm behavior which is the main reason I was running down this rabbit hole. The hives I did this way built up well and did not swarm, but may have been more Italian than African. It also may have more to do with me learning general beekeeping and not a particular management style.
 
#20 ·
Now where is that co-op to pitch in on the shipping cost and then
ship the remaining queens to individual members? I've read here that
there is a co-op club going on getting the Ferguson buckfast queens here.
So how to join?
 
#22 ·
Not only with mediums for the brood nest but also the deep boxes as well.
This is their preferred winter arrangement going forward. A 1 deep winter hive consolidation
will have the broods in smaller patches on all of the frames. Good update!
 
#27 ·
There is no problem starting a Jumbo brood chamber using deep frames. Just put one or two Jumbo frames in the center and fill the rest of the box with deep frames of brood. When the Jumbos are drawn and the queen is using them remove the deep frames and add more Jumbos. The only thing that may happen is that the bees add a small amount of comb to the bottom bar of the deep frames.

If you have a super of medium frames of brood place it on the bottom board and put the Jumbo super above. When the Jumbos are drawn and the queen is using that chamber, remove the medium, put the Jumbo on the bottom board, and put the medium above.
 
#28 ·
...
If you have a super of medium frames of brood place it on the bottom board and put the Jumbo super above. When the Jumbos are drawn and the queen is using that chamber, remove the medium, put the Jumbo on the bottom board, and put the medium above.
Ok, that's a great idea. I may put that into practice.

I don't have bees right now to just shake into a Jumbo box, but I think I want to start with a nuc, vs. a package.
 
#29 ·
The good thing on Jumbo frames is, they are huge. So usually you can screw the smaller frames into a Jumbo frame. Depending on the other system. Langstroth frames have the same length as the Bro Adam frames. You simply hang them into the deep brood chamber. Put frames with foundation and a frame feeder next to them. That is it. That is the good thing: plenty of space inside a deep hive.

So yes, you can use splits and nucs to start a deep.
 
#31 ·
I've been toying with this idea myself. More than toying, actually. I have laid out side bar dimensions providing for a frame with two medium foundations top/bottom with a spacer between them to allow use of a medium frame top and bottom bar. If I should find it interesting to split a frame, I ought to be able to leave the top attached to its foundation and the bottom to its foundation with attached drawn comb. Just cut loose the middle bar and the sides and tack on the appropriate side bars from a medium frame.

Oh, wait...there isn't really a middle bar. My last layout involved edge spacers and left a 1/2" gap across the frame between the foundation panels. I thought that it would be interesting to see what the bees would do there.

I'd read what Bernhard and some others were saying about deep vs. jumbo frames and thought that in my shift from deep supers to medium supers I might think about going to double-medium pseudo-jumbo brood box, too. Using two mediums as a "jumbo" brood box sounded interesting.

Michael
 
#36 · (Edited)
According to Rosemary, they get new breeders from Denmark every year. Unfortunately, the US law requires that only daughters are available for export/import & only after a year of "quarantine". Even so I found them to be a step or two above the southern US offerings. On par with the "gentle ones" of the 80's & 90's. My all time best Buckfast were early 80's Texans.

Here's the best pic of a '15 queen that I could find.
Bee Honeycomb Honeybee Insect Beehive

The colors do vary. Here's blurry pic of a darker one: Bee Insect Honeybee Beehive Honeycomb


My "yard" is just a microcosm of yours, Michael. It should become "sustainable" this year. I'm curious what you found non "impressive" about the cells. With hundreds of nucs to stock, you obviously had/have some great insight. My small scale "take" is contradictory, but I've never tried cells. We do see about a 20% loss in the typical 5 day July transit. Since starting up with the "Ontario" Buckfast in 2015, less than 5% have succumbed to winter, and that may have been my own fault.

To the OP: If they are sourced from Ontario, "Real Buckfast" in Texas are likely the grand-daughters of Danish Buckfast, at best. I've seen a notable difference in the two. The best of Tejas are just the average from Canada in my limited experience.
 
#37 ·
Texanbelchers and others experimenting with the compact brood nest and jumbo hives, any new info now that we are getting into spring?

I am wondering how many frames of bees/brood you are seeing this time of the year and what measures you are taking to keep a compact brood nest.

Thanks!
 
#38 ·
Not enough. I expected things to pick up, so I stopped feeding. They didn't; we have everything green, but nothing blooming. The only pollen available is live oak all over the car and yard, but they don't seem to collect that. I didn't expect a dearth in March.

Due to growth (I don't want unhappy neighbors or deed restriction monitors) I'm moving everything to an outyard. Hopefully it will be a better area, too. In any case, I have nothing good to report.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top