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Swarm Queen Not Laying

32K views 88 replies 13 participants last post by  Lburou 
#1 ·
I had my month old package swarm in late May. I did catch the swarm in a ten frame box. They have 5 frames of wax pulled with some pollen( no nectar or honey.)

I fed honey for two days after I caught them and since we have flowers blooming everywhere I figured they are good.

I checked yesterday and I cant find any eggs or brood,I did see the queen.

So whats up its the old queen that swarmed from my package at one month ? they backfilled the brood chamber and she left. I didn't want to over feed again, if that was the reason they left in the first place.

Either way it looks like my queen is not laying and I am at a loss for what to do, I will check the old hive and new queen today and see how they are doing, and hope I can steal a frame with eggs and pinch the old queen . does that sound about right?

I should mention I am out in the boonies and no other bee keeps around to get a queen unless I can get one mailed in.

Any advice would be appreciated

Thanks
 
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#29 ·
Well I inspected today and the new Swarm Queen must of got bred, and is now laying, I see brood now so I am a happy bee keep :)

Our main flow is on and they are capping fireweed honey, I quit feeding since they are in a big patch of it.

I will hold off on re-queening for now and see if I can get them built up for winter. I do plan on getting a queen here when ever they show they need it, or can be split again in the spring if they make it through the winter and thats a big "IF"

Thanks again for all the replies it sure helps knowing you all have my back :D

 
#30 ·
I just had a similar experience where my swarm queen didn't match up with my bee math. I think we newbees may be too quick to decide that a hive is in trouble in order not to screw it all up and risk failure. Beginning to think that Mother Nature actually knows more than me! Good luck. J
 
#32 ·
Well here is another shot of the original hive and I am wondering if its all drone brood or is there any worker brood on here I have a few frames in this small hive that al look like this, I am thinking I might have a laying worker I have never seen a queen yet.

This hive is only about 3-4 lbs of bees.





I think I might of took their only queen cell and left them queenless. These bees would be better off without me. lol

I have also done some reading on the Russian strain and found some interesting stuff that could of been my problem.

Here are some quotes from a guy Foley in Iowa that raises Russians.

"Russian Queen Shut-down:
Russian queens will stop laying if there is a pollen or nectar dearth. In Eastern Washington it is not uncommon to have a pollen dearth between the dandelion bloom and the next bloom during the spring. Many Russian queens will shut down during this short period. It is not normally a failing queen, it’s a Russian thing. Do not try to replace her; just wait to see if she starts laying again when the pollen flow returns.

MORE :

Future:
The Russian honey bee is not a panacea. It is a very hardy and hygienic bee with numerous traits both good and not so good. Unless a new beekeeper attends a Russian honey bee oriented beginner’s class, it is not recommended to start out with Russians. The management techniques are just different enough to cause significant problems. The Russian Honeybee Breeders Association has been formed to maintain the current pure Russian queen lines and expand the gene pool of association members. Each member of the RHBA maintains two lines of Russian queens. Each year they evaluate, select, and produce 36 queens from each line and then send two of each line to the other 17 members. The 34 queens received from the other members are used as drone mothers and produce additional drone mothers. The drones increased each member’s gene pool each year. New queens are grafted from the line breeder queens and moved to mating yards near drone mother yards. After successful mating, the new queens are established and then evaluated for possible selection as breeder queens for the next year. The cycle then repeats


More Here: http://www.russianbee.com/russians.htm
 
#34 ·
this is all drone brood. the queen never mated or went sterile. queens do not mate succesfully if the only drones available in the area are from their own hive or are from nearby [same yard] hives. most likely the case is never mated. you need a proven queen or the hive will die out. for a queen to mate there needs to be drones more than 1/2 or a more than a mile away.
 
#35 ·
Well that's a bummer.

Now I wonder if my swarm queen in the other hive is the old package queen or the cell that I put in, its laying now,so I guess I will see if that's a failure as well.

I did try and pm a couple people on here selling queens but never got a response, can anyone recommend a place that ships queens, I was hoping to keep these Russian genetics if I can,but in a pinch I will take a Carni or a cross.

Thanks again guys.
 
#36 ·
jeff, have been following the thread, and I would be concerned because of the long delay for the laying to start. It may be a virgin swarm or the cell queen. It sounds like you have a challenge to keep bees where you are. One of the blessings of beekeeping is that they can fix major errors of ours, but a big one would be requeening themselves well. Sounds like you need to start distant bee yards of non related bees. Consider your experience a big gain in wisdom about beekeeping there.
 
#37 ·
Thanks DanialD. It sure is disheartening watching these bee's failing since May and not being able to get the resources here to help them. I guess I didn't think this all the way through.

If I try this again I will see if I can keep at least two yards going ,that is if I can keep one alive first.
 
#38 ·
It sounds like swarming is a death sentence for a colony of bees there currently. Swarm prevention would be a very important thing to know about. If feral bees are capable of surviving there, your swarm may well be out there starting a source of bees not related to your next ones. Would they have a chance of surviving? Are mites in the area? I would suppose mites went out with the swarm.

If someone had told you about queens and mating issues there, you may not have taken it too seriously. Now you have the experience to know how serious it is and it is leading you to more knolwedge about the bees. Trials make us wise if we use them for training.
 
#39 ·
Yes a swarm here would end up being bird feed I guess no other bees here, I wonder what the chances of a queen finding and mating with a drone that's two miles away would be, chances seam slim, but they must communicate and pull it off I imagine.

I did gain a bunch of experience with this package of bees and its been a lot of fun, I got to do a swarm recovery and have two hives if I can keep them alive. I have defiantly been stung by the bee bug and wish I would of started sooner, I think I might have a small obsession, and that cant be good. :)

Well I do have another queen ordered Thanks again Don !

Stay tuned I will update from time to time for anyone interested or anyone with the same type problems.
 
#41 ·
Yeah, I have read they normally fly more than 2 miles to mate, but I don't have any background to verify it. I am at the mercy of others who seem to know what they are talking about concerning that. I have gained understanding by following this thread. Thanks for sharing your learning experience. If you have another queen ordered, and it's a drone laying queen instead of a laying worker, you can still pinch the queen and add the new one. You have a great excuse for more bees and another apiary a few miles away too.

Obsessions aren't good, but a passion for something can be.
 
#42 ·
Glad you were able to learn with us Daniel.

Update: I did get a new queen shipped in Thanks Mathesonquip for hooking me up and Thanks to Chautauqua Apiary for getting me a laying queen delivered across the continent very much alive.

I have her installed and giving her peace for ten days, I hope they can recover. Was a pretty sad situation watching them haul out the baby drone larva and just hatched brood out on the deck to die.

Meanwhile back in the non laying Swarm Queen I see she is laying up a storm and things are going to be alright,(I hope)





Thanks again for all the help> us newbees sure are screwed with out all you gray beards help :)

 
#45 ·
Lburou we have a later fall here out in western Alaska, and warmer winters. we get the warm Bering Sea winds that keep our temps warmer than most of the interior of AK. (during the winter), and our fall is later as well so we might have fireweed still blooming even after the first frost with plenty of warm fly days right up into mid October I am guessing.

First frost will be in Late August or early Sept but alot of our plants and flowers here are pretty frost resistant , and will still be blooming right as the snow hits.

Barry, I did a manual release on Monday as they didn't quite have the candy gone. so I set the cage on the top bars and opened the small door and she walked right out and across the top bars like she owned the place. She fed from one of the workers and then crawled down into the frames like a good girl.

Will keep you posted and Thanks again for saving the day.
 
#47 ·
Be sure to keep an eye on what the bees are bringing in and storing for the winter. If in doubt, feed, feed, feed! Not sure what your bees will need by way of winter stores, and I always prefer mine to have lots of honey to eat rather than sugar-syrup, but better to feed syrup to get the stores up enough to last until spring than to have them starve out over the winter.

Good luck with them. You'll be a much happier beekeeper, and enjoy them more, now that they are getting back on track.
 
#48 · (Edited)
It sounds like you dodged a bullet Jeff! The next bullet I see coming for you will be having two hives going into winter without adequate stores. I got through the first winter in Eagle River with a deep and a medium full of bees and honey. But I fed them.

Recommend you feed the bees now until the second super is full on each hive. You might consider one of these screen boards to stack your hives during winter. The screen board might help both colonies keep warmer and use less honey over winter. Something to think about Jeff.

Jeff, do you have warm, (over 55 degrees), days during the winter?
 
#49 ·
Thanks for all the helpful info folks.We are right in the middle of our main Fireweed flow now, so I was going to let them bring in what they can and assess where they are at in a week or two, and start feeding if necessary.

I remember feeding is what caused my problems in the first place, they back filled and she left. so I don't want that again. lol

That screen board could be the ticket Lburou I will get one if Dadant ships to Alaska. I was considering combining if they look too weak come fall.

We get several warm spells with rain every winter, it gets up to 45 or so. We don't get the real cold like Fairbanks or the interior in fact Eagle river will get frost before it does here out west.

I sure want to get at least one hive through winter, its such a pain and $$$ to get a package of bees out here, I don't want to have to do it again.

Thanks for all the input, its been a big help and good to hear all the ideas.
 
#50 ·
Well Things are not going well for my new queens hive. I noticed mites on the landing deck from all the drone brood I mistakenly let hatch in the hive, I have a serious mite problem. I did treat for three days with Hops strips, changed the bottom board to a new clean one, was probably too little, too late.

Also the next door Swarm queen hive was robbing it, so I moved it 50 ft away that helped some, I put a empty hive in its place and spilled some sugar syrup on their deck to keep them busy seamed to work for awhile.

The population has now dwindled down to a pity full amount of bees. I added a frame of what I figured was soon to hatch capped brood from a other hive that really could of used them themselves, but they probably don't have enough bees to keep it warm, and I probably just wasted precious resources I don't think they can recover at this point and not sure what I can do with the still alive queen once she is the only one left. sorry to waste a good queen.



I took out a few frames and added sidewalls to help with space.



On more positive note the swarm queen hive is really exploding still not a full deep yet but it looks like its getting there, I treated for mites and hopefully I will still go into winter with at least one hive,... fingers crossed.
 
#51 ·
it is all part of the learning procedure. by the time you figure out what to do and get what you need to get there it is often pretty [to] late. it is hard with a couple of hives in a remote area. the people with more hives that have done this for awhile do something without much thought and go on to the next hive. sometimes that something to do is nothing but leaving the brood box tipped up for other hives to clean out.
 
#52 ·
For those that were following my plight, here is an update:

Well my mail order queen had enough of the varroa infested hive I put her in and absconded with a fist full of bees to a better place, I cant say I blame her.
And Thanks Mathesonequip for privately informing me the Hopps strips DO NOT WORK, he was right again and suggested the MAQ, which I got and saved my swarm queens hive that is kind of small ,but still chugging along.

We have a lot of dragonflies here and they eat bees all kinds of bees and mine included, I did chase them away from the hive some days.





The temps recently dropped have dropped to around 25 at night to 40-50 in the afternoon, I could not get them to take much feed all summer with a flow going on, but they would not store much either, so I have been open feeding 2:1 and they have been taking it,I am also giving them pollen to store,and they are really gathering that up.

I made a quilt box and put it on the hive and painted the hive because Black Hives Matter. I am not sure its good they are now flying around at about 35 degrees, but for now its helping them get some feed in the hive before the big long freeze .







I ordered follower board from Mann Lake who assured me that they go all the way to the floor of the bottom board (which they didn't) so I made my own out of plywood. I insulated with dry grass its a pretty good insulation.

Thanks to all that helped me through my first summer, I didn't kill them all. :) And thanks to those that are posting in great detail on their winter set up, it has helped me immensely .



 
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