Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

Treatment free, is it really that easy

95K views 542 replies 69 participants last post by  apis maximus 
#1 ·
I've been reading alot on the forums lately how easy we can be treatment free , while it seems most seasoned practical beekeepers that have been around awhile use various treatments to deal with mites .The other side of the fence says all we have to do is order vsh queens from a good supplier and your all set no more mite problem !

Not trying to start a war here between the treat crowd versus the non treat , this is a different idea , this says if we get the right queens there is no more of the two crowds we all have happy bee's without treating and no dead colonies .

This QUOTE from a VSH breeder relates to what I'm talking about - The development of the VSH line of bees by the team of scientists at the USDA Bee Breeding Lab in Baton Rouge, is a true scientific success story. Through careful observation and experimentation, they painstakingly came to understand the natural defenses that the bees had hidden away in their genome. Selection for these beneficial genetic traits over many bee generations has resulted in not only resistance to Varroa mites, but also to American Foulbrood and Chalkbrood. The hygienic behavior of VSH bees, even extends to defense against wax moths and small hive beetles.

Queen rearing is one of those high leverage activities, where small actions can have large consequences. By carefully choosing the proper breeding stock to begin with, entire local populations of bees can be transformed into mite destroying armies, getting the upper hand on the many problems Varroa can cause. The development and use of VSH bees show that man and nature can work together for the mutual benefit of both. So whats the catch ? Or are we close to solving this mite problem .
 
See less See more
#30 ·
Our biggest issue with Minn. Hygenic was that they made about 2/3rds the honey of an average Italian, and marginally survived better. Not impressed. On a whim, we pooled the surviving hives in one yard, and after 6 years of no outside genetic additions, the count in fall was 8. Still not impressed.

For anyone heading this direction, I would search for a thread started by StevenG. After a few hours of discusion, I can testify that he has a good understanding of beekeeping.

Crazy Roland
 
#31 · (Edited)
Nobody can say they have bees without the mites in their apiary. Honey, like to laugh at me when I posted
that I got the 'mite resistant' queen bees and no treatment. The reality is mites are here to stay.
So far I have not found a mite remedy to get rid of them entirely for good. The drifting will bring the mites in eventually.
Even with the mite resistant bees it is still an uphill battle. My plan is to continue to select from the survivor that has
the least amount of mites with a huge bee population and to treat when necessary. Without the bees then there is
no sense to treat, right. Also continue to add the mite fighting survivor bees into my local bee genetics.
Even with 6 bees crawling on the ground got my heart sank already. In the long term I hope to get some no treat
bees to share. Are we all heading at the right direction?
This year I found out that the bee nutrition is really important against these mites. With a well fed healthy colony they
are able to withstand the attack of these mites. A weak under nourish colony will not survive this cold winter with the
mites on. I also found out that the Spring and Fall treatment is very important for the population to build up. There will be
many crawling bees on the ground if you don't keep the mite population under control. So feed them well.


Keep them well fed:
 

Attachments

#33 ·
My methods of controlling mites are great for rearing queens and making increases. But for honey production, my methods would take it's toll on your overall harvest unless your timing was perfect with your brood breaks and simulated swarms.
I wonder how your queens would perform for honey production, since they are being selected for brood production and other traits?
 
#37 · (Edited)
When I shot competition archery and came to a target who's distance I wasn't sure of, I would always split the difference between my high and low estimate. If I thought the target was between 45 and 50 yards I'd shoot it for 47-48 yards. That would always put me close to where I wanted to be, without risk of a very low score or a MISS.

A MISS with management judgement with your hives usually means an unfortunate dead out. If you are inexperienced, that can mean an unpleasant surprise down the road.

I choose moderation over a stubborn stance with most things. It usually is the right choice unless I am totally sure of my method. At least it is close enough I will not suffer extreme consequences.

I won't advocate methods just because they are popular or support ideas that people just want to hear.
I always strive to be a organic and natural as possible. But there is a line of common sense of allowing my bees to live another day until I can tweak my methods to continue on as treatment free as possible.


Look at my frames with partial foundation. Another example of splitting the difference'.



In the seemingly endless debate over foundation VS foundationless, why not do both?

I give a foundationless area to them so they can make what they want. They are more content. They are in a more natural balance.

In return I get exactly what I want. Clean frames with a designated area for drone cells. Guaranteed worker sized cells in the center of the frame. Healthy populations of spring drones for good mating. Harvestable honeycomb later in the season. More feed stored in the broodnest area, after the drones have hatched and they backfill with nectar. Less backfilling of the center of the broodnest due to actual room for feed on the outsides of the frames, in the larger cells where they actually want to put feed.



When frames like the one below are in the bottom deep, how do you think the bees respond to them when in a dearth period? Feed close to the broodnest area, no need to move up the the second deep and reposition the broodnest close to feed.
You'll notice they are backfilling the large cells, not the worker sized cells here.



When I mention in my posts I am not into honey production, I mean I don't harvest my honey to sell. That doesn't mean I don't produce honey. For my queen rearing and nuc production I run most of my colonies in one location, for my convenience.

Talk about pushing the carrying capacity of an area.
All my hives have to do is self sustain. I find the amount of honey they make to be extraordinary, considering the circumstances.

I'll be moving many of my larger hives to the mountains this winter in order to produce a 2015 honey harvest. But not to sell. It will be to feed my nucs I've required to draw out new frames so I don't have to feed them so much syrup to get them to fall weight.
By not harvesting honey, some may consider my operation to be a failure.

My harvest is queens and nucs. And that's just the way I want it.

My customers would like to harvest as much honey as they can. But they want queens and bees that overwinter well even more than a guaranteed bumper crop.
That is what I focus on for now.

This year with production hives in other locations I'll be able to see just how they produce without all the competition.
But for now I am busy just trying to keep up with the demand for queens. To do that, they have to be easily accessable for me to work.
 
#39 ·
Lauri, as soon as I read, "When I shot competition archery and came to a target who's distance I wasn't sure of..." I envisioned myself "rocking" side to side to look for hidden obstacles and then settling a pin above, and a pin below, the x. Shooting for 47 vs 45 or 50 is a better way to "win". I like your management practices. Like you, I am not it it to sell honey, but instead shoot for strong and healthy colonies which I can pass on to other beeks. For now, I supply nucs. Eventually, I may decide to breed and sell queens. Honey is last on my list of things to sell, because I firmly believe the hives are healthier by leaving the honey.
 
#40 ·
It is always interesting when a thread like this pops up. Jwchestnut posts something about how treatment free means huge losses. Someone else chimes in that they are afraid to put their toe in the water. A bunch of folks then chime in about using minimal treatments, but they still treat.

I'm in the boat with Farrer, take your losses in the fall. He advocated combining weak colonies to get a strong colony for winter. I'm falling down on the job. I did not combine any colonies this year. It must be because all of them are at the right strength to get through winter. I may still lose one or two, but so far, they are holding fast and just starting spring brood rearing with a palm size patch of brood in most colonies.

So what do I treat my bees with? I don't know, but "nothing" seems to work. I don't put anything in the hive. I don't have apivar hiding in a cabinet somewhere just in case. I rely entirely on the bees to stay alive and produce honey. If they can't manage mites, they die. My wintering losses are typically about 10% and have been stable in that range for the last 5 years.

Do I make honey? Yes, I sold every drop I could make this year at $11 per quart. I figured out pretty fast that I was underpriced so next year it will be $14 per quart. I didn't keep track of how much I sold, but it was well over 100 quarts, maybe as much as 150.

I managed to split my bees and start another beekeeper with treatment free bees. This makes 3 in the local area running bees that have never been treated. One friend managed to sell 40 quarts from 2 colonies. He wants to split his bees next spring. I will work with him to do the splits because one of his queens is the best I've seen in this area in several years. I want a few raised from her.

I'll quit rambling now. Ya'll go back to talking about how to keep bees alive by treating them with soft treatments, hard treatments, and how good VSH genetics are.

Don't forget to add some praise and honors for the non-participants!
 
#42 · (Edited)
It's funny, I can make so many references between beekeeping and archery.

Anyone can pick up a bow and with a little bit of instruction hit the bale, perhaps hitting the target occasionally.
Folks with a little more experience can hit the target pretty regularly, sometimes getting a bulls eye, but eventually they'll loose all their arrows and have to buy more.

Some get bummed they have to buy new arrows, some understand you have to practice to get better and some losses are to be expected.
Most reach a point where they've progressed and can justify buying better equipment without fear of undue losses.
But Archery is addictive. Just like beekeeping. It's fun and people know they can eventually get to the point where they are satisfied with their performance.as frustrating as it may be at times, they keep on trying.

The level of performance may be different between folks, depending on your personal goals.

But if you want to play with the big boys, who hit the bulls eye, dead center, time after time after time, day after day, year after year, you must know a whole lot more.
You must understand the geometry of your bow, the spine of your arrow, the front of center weight, the kinetic energy your bow produces with a given weight of arrow, the deflection your arrow exhibits, especially when hitting an animal, what stresses your broadhead needs to be able to take if you are hunting. You must recognize your bow tuning is based on mathematics. You must be physically fit yourself and have a stable blood sugar level that will allow you to be steady all day long. You buy arrows that cost $500 a dozen, because you never miss and you want the quality for consistancy and longevity. Your biggest threat is of robbin hooding your own arrrow, or your competition blasts your arrow to pieces because it was in the way. (DC)
You must understand that perfect consistant shooting form is as mental as it is physical. You must learn the challenges you may face, such as target panic. By understanding potential issues, you can avoid them before they actually become a problem.

You can't go to a competition and drink all night and expect to shoot well the next day. When you stop to get a snack in the middle of the shoot and choose a coke and a snickers bar, well, your resulting blood sugar spike will make for some interesting entertainment for the rest of the group. Then you get shaky and crash, swear, throw your bow and call it a day.
You wonder 'what is that smell?', as you turn around to see one of the top shooters quietly standing back, eating his tuna fish straight out of the can for his lunch, along with his hard boiled egg, water and fresh apple.

Do you see their relevance to beekeeping? The process of human behavior seems very similar to me.

My point is, no matter what you are doing, Details matter. If you think they don't, yet you're not progressing beyond a certain level, you may want to rethink some things.
You may or may not want to work that hard, But you should understand these details DO exist.
 
#54 ·
Are there non-intervention archers, Lauri?
I used to shoot frogs in a pond with a #25 plastic bow and a target arrow. Never lost an arrow and the frogs tasted awesome. Yes, the devil is in the details but today I'd be lucky to hit the broad side of the barn. As I got older I found it was easier to use a hook with a piece of tinfoil on a pole. (didn't have to get wet)
 
#46 ·
Lauri: There is one beekeeper in Finland who is totally treatment free and who claims that his secret is that he cuts a lot of drone brood. I think about 6 whole size Langstroth (232x448mm) frames in a summer per hive. His system has been going on for about 10 years now and works well.
If I have understood correctly, he has smaller cell size (than 5,3), but how small I don´t know.
 
#47 ·
Interesting. We are running a survey in Germany right now about summer and winter losses. There are few close-to-significant factors. Only one factor is significant: So far (the poll is still running) the drone culling is most significantly related to survival, while the losses are greater in apiaries that do not cut drones. Greater than can be expected statistically.

By nature drones are the hive's sink for diseases. Also drones that get weakened by diseases don't contribute to the gene pool by reproduction. So the drones play a part in natural selection.
 
#48 ·
How many frames of drones are cut out in each hive?
Are there any healthy drones left for the queen mating?
I would say a 4.9mm cell size is small enough. Though I have seen smaller bees here. Their
development process is shorter to out run the mites, supposedly.
 
#50 ·
>I´m worried about his mating drones too, but obviously it works somehow<
Juhani may be other apiaries in the area that provide the drones to the congregation areas. But I agree that it can be risky. We are putting ourselves in a position where we do not depend on us.
A question to me is about the cost effectiveness of this measure looking at the resources spent by the hive and the work and time spent by the beekeeper ?

I see few drones with DWV syndrome. So it is with you?
 
#51 ·
The development and use of VSH bees show that man and nature can work together for the mutual benefit of both. So whats the catch ?
The catch is that it is a sales pitch where you become beholding to a breeder of bees instead of a chemical company. Both cures suffer from the same fallacy, they are temporary. Nature doesn't stand still. Everything cured by man will eventually come back. The cure has to come from nature and the cure in a lot of cases is coexistence not eradication.
 
#55 ·
Ya, but I'd rather have Arnold Schwarzenegger as the father of my children over Pee Wee Herman. Just Sayin' :rolleyes:

Seriously, I think we've shown backyard queen rearing something most should try. If you want the pick of the litter, when you need them, without much cost, it's the way to go.
Everyone should do a couple walk away nucs early spring. Even I do a few, even though I rear a lot of queens.
 
#53 · (Edited)
Sorry to keep bringing up these frames, but they do fascinate me.

If these frames had equal numbers of mites, where do you think they will be?





Not only can you corral the mites in a removable area, but even if you don't remove drone brood, it likely prevents or delays mites from invading the worker brood, when they have a preferred area to go. Just like why they don't backfill nectar in the worker brood cells when they have preferred large cells close by to fill.


Every brood cycle the mites don't effect worker brood is a big advantage in my opinion. If that critical last batch of brood is allowed to hatch virus free before the end of the main flow, the hive can go into a dearth period with healthy workers, it can have the chance to take advantage of their brooding down period and live to rebuild populations in the fall. Drones have done their job as far as mating and being mite bait. They die off or are evicted during periods of late summer dearth. Healthy workers can take advantage of a the brooding down period to groom off residual phoretic mites.

At least with my Carniolan hybrids, that is the cycle I see here. Even with 2 & 3 year old queens, the brood frames are filled with eggs and larva come fall, but little or no capped brood. They clean themselves up nicley.
I actually remove little drone brood for mite control, but if I wanted to keep large established hives in tact for longer than a couple years, I would experiment with it.

One of the things I do is early spring, I will make up nucs with some of my overwintered queens from smaller mating nucs. I get into my very large hives and take the first frames of capped brood for that nuc. Where do you think the mites are that were in that hive? I've just removed them.

I let that nuc grow for a month or more, then repeat that procedure. I remove the frames of capped brood and leave the overwintered queen with the frames of open brood and eggs with all foragers. They have a chance to groom off any remaining mites.

I take that capped brood and make up a mating nuc with a capped queen cell. Now those transferred mites will soon be exposed and groomed off. The mite population is low in spring here, But those are the breeders that would have multiplies and compounded all summer if they had remained in the big overwintered hive.

I encourage good populations of drones in my hives and those big hives thrive. With correct timing, I think both removal of capped drone brood and available drone rearing areas are more importaint to the hives balance than most people think. Don't take out all the drone brood, just take it out when it has the most impact.

I use 5.4 foundation in the center of my frames and encourage large cells on the sides. I think the drone and honey sized large cell importance is also overlooked.

If they made 5.1- 5.2 foundation I would try it, but I'm not unhappy with 5.4. I think my queens would have difficulty laying in 4.9, I rear them to be creatures if I can. :)

 
#57 ·
One of the things I do is early spring, I will make up nucs with some of my overwintered queens from smaller mating nucs. I get into my very large hives and take the first frames of capped brood for that nuc. Where do you think the mites are that were in that hive? I've just removed them.

I let that nuc grow for a month or more, then repeat that procedure. I remove the frames of capped brood and leave the overwintered queen with the frames of open brood and eggs with all foragers. They have a chance to groom off any remaining mites.

I take that capped brood and make up a mating nuc with a capped queen cell.

With correct timing, I think both removal of capped drone brood and available drone rearing areas are more importaint to the hives balance than most people think. Don't take out all the drone brood, just take it out when it has the most impact.
I think you have a very clever system, combined with good stock and management. No wonder you are thriving.

My hives have 2 inches of free space beneath the bottom box, so they can rear as much drone brood as they wish. Strong hives make more than weak ones, which is good for drone selection. Quick mite checks are easy to do, too.

Eduardo: I see DWV in drones, sometimes. Drones are haploid and therefore very rapid selection takes place: If your genes are not up to standards, you are out. Drones are really one of the main things to raise varroa resistance in a population. Many beekeepers think they are worthless, or even negative - so sad. Virus resistance varies a lot between breeding mothers. In all virus resistance has improved a lot during these hard years of big losses, but every now and then some breeders offspring seems to be vulnerable.
 
#60 ·
When reading about walk away splits at Michael's page linked above, note a key concept ...

A walk away split. You take a [HIGHLIGHT]frame of eggs[/HIGHLIGHT], two frames of emerging brood and two frames of pollen and honey and put them in a 5 frame nuc, shake in some extra nurse bees (making sure you don't get the queen), put the lid on and walk away. Come back in four weeks and see if the queen is laying.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#walkaway


Occasionally, some might miss the part about eggs (or young larva). That can result in this crazy situation ... :D
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291085-Split-like-crazy
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top