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  1. #21

    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    Everybody cites the Arnot Forest study but they fail to note this part.
    This wasn't my point. I was replying to a poster who asked where a study of Seeley's, depicting the feral swarm traps could be found. In the study I linked there are photos and descriptions. That is, generally speaking, what this thread is about.
    Who said anything about avirulence....other than you?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    You feel just by providing more housing for the bees there would be more of them. I can't buy that concept.
    Maybe I'm missing where your logic flows, but if you can explain it, i would appreciate it.

    We know for a fact that by providing more housing for native bees(artificial or naturally sourced) the populations climb.
    Is it so absurd to think this logic doesn't apply to honey bees? Looking for constructive criticism here.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    This wasn't my point. I was replying to a poster who asked where a study of Seeley's, depicting the feral swarm traps could be found. In the study I linked there are photos and descriptions. That is, generally speaking, what this thread is about.
    Who said anything about avirulence....other than you?
    Thank you for posting it, the photos should be a big help!

    I do think Peter makes some great points, although not necessarily what I was asking about, related none the less. I appreciate all the input here.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by nlk3233 View Post
    We know for a fact that by providing more housing for native bees(artificial or naturally sourced) the populations climb. Is it so absurd to think this logic doesn't apply to honey bees? Looking for constructive criticism here.
    Yes, to use your words it is absurd and that populations of native pollinators climb by providing more housing is not a fact that I am aware of. Native pollinators as well as honeybees find their own housing whether you provide it for them or not.

    If you want to raise the feral honeybee colony numbers, keep bees and let them swarm. And let them find their own housing themselves.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    It is not illegal to let your colonies produce and cast swarms.
    This is, of course, locally significant and not a universal truth. Pointing out as folks generally should be aware of their own local laws regarding the keeping of bees as some do address principals of management, includes those that lead to swarming.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    It is not illegal to let your colonies produce and cast swarms.

    This is, of course, locally significant and not a universal truth.
    OK, then. Where on earth is it illegal to let your bees swarm? Now, there are some places where it's illegal to keep bees at all, but I have never heard of any jurisdiction that allows beekeeping provided they do not swarm. There is no surefire way to prevent swarming, so how could such a law be passed?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    There is no surefire way to prevent swarming, so how could such a law be passed?
    All sorts of Laws are written and passed by people who don't know what they are doing.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  8. #28
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    Jan 2012
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    OK, then. Where on earth is it illegal to let your bees swarm?
    King County, WA.

    The code contains a few interesting provisions, including:

    * Adequate space shall be provided in each hive to prevent overcrowding and swarming;
    * Colonies shall be requeened following any swarming or aggressive behavior;
    * Abandoned colonies, diseased bees, or bees living in trees, buildings, or any other space except in movable-frame hives shall constitute a public nuisance, and shall be abated as set forth in K.C.C. 21A.50.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Colonies requeen themselves after swarming, don't they?
    Who is going to do this abating and how?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  10. #30
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    The City of Issaquah (located in King County WA) has even more ridiculous regulations in its municipal code.

    D. Nuisance: Bees shall be considered a nuisance when any of the following occurs:

    1. Colonies of bees are defensive or exhibit objectionable behavior, or interfere with the normal use of property, or the enjoyment of persons, animals or property adjacent to an apiary(s); or
    2. Colonies of bees swarm; or
    3. Hives of bees do not conform to this Code; or
    4. The hive(s) becomes deceased, as defined by the Department of Agriculture; or
    5. The hive(s) becomes abandoned.

    Read the rest here:
    http://www.codepublishing.com/wa/issaquah/
    If a hive swarms, it automatically qualifies as a "nuisance" hive.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Nuisance: Bees shall be considered a nuisance when any of the following occurs:
    4. The hive(s) becomes deceased

    Yep, those deceased hives sure are a nuisance! Might attract one of those nuisance swarms, and give them somewhere to live ...

  12. #32
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    Jul 2014
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    Black Forest, Colorado, USA
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley Craig View Post
    I would not call that "keeping" bees but I'm not a lawyer. For all anybody knows it was a ferrell hive he brought home in order to move them to a standard hive when the time was right so that he can then keep bees otherwise everyone who is in need of a cutout would be breaking the law
    In Colorado, you are a "beekeeper" if you are "producing or causing to be produced bees or bee products." Our law goes on to say that "all beehives shall have removable combs." So, one might want to be careful about intentionally creating a hive without removable combs, whether you intend for it to become feral or not. Check the laws in your state.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    The City of Issaquah (located in King County WA) has even more ridiculous regulations in its municipal code.



    If a hive swarms, it automatically qualifies as a "nuisance" hive.
    I don't see it as ridiculous. It speaks of colonies (plural). That sounds to me like the law is targeting people who encourage swarming and not one that is unintentional. But hey I am not a lawyer.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    So, Ace, do you also have an alternative interpretation for "deceased"?
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  15. #35
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    Washington County, Pa
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackForestBees View Post
    In Colorado, you are a "beekeeper" if you are "producing or causing to be produced bees or bee products." Our law goes on to say that "all beehives shall have removable combs." So, one might want to be careful about intentionally creating a hive without removable combs, whether you intend for it to become feral or not. Check the laws in your state.
    I thought there were some stipulations in certain states. I'll have to look into PA.

    Thanks for the info.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    So, Ace, do you also have an alternative interpretation for "deceased"?
    Foolish question, no? Maybe that is why you are banging on the floor?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #37
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Trying to fit things into boxes of "feral" or "wild" and "domestic" is an ongoing and confusing issue. In a nearby town to me there is a fight with people who are catching feral cats and neutering them and releasing them. The authorities say once they caught and nurtured them, they own them and are now responsible to confine them. The people having them neutered argue that they are already wild and they are just trying to keep the population under control and if they aren't allowed to neuter them there will be more wild cats running around with no one to take care of them...

    I think this is similar. If you set a box out with the intent of giving a home to a wild owl or a wild bat, no one seems to question it, but there are a very limited (and very controlled) number of people keeping any of those as pets or livestock. If you set a home out with the intent of wild bees moving in and they do, the authorities may view them as domestic now that they are in a box. And if they are domestic, you are responsible for having movable comb... depending on how they want to interpret it. Most states where I have read their laws, the bee inspector can call any hive a nuisance and have it destroyed even if it's a feral hive in a tree... then it becomes a judgment call on the part of the inspector.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Trying to fit things into boxes of "feral" or "wild" and "domestic" is an ongoing and confusing issue.
    You are further confusing it by talking about cats, owls and bats. The difference between feral and domestic cats is very distinct. Bees, on the other hand, are not domesticated. They are wild animals whether in a hive or a tree.

    Most states where I have read their laws, the bee inspector can call any hive a nuisance and have it destroyed
    I worked as a NYS bee inspector, and not only is this not in the law, no inspector would do it. We only condemned hives with AFB and had all diagnoses verified by Beltsville.

    African bees are illegal in NYS, but it is impossible to get testing done in a timely manner. Even so, the inspectors do not destroy suspected hives, although personally I would recommend it

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    The difference between feral and domestic cats is very distinct.
    If a domestic cat that is in heat is left in your woods, it doesn't take long for a feral cat to impregnate it and you wind up with 7 or 8 cats that are feral. I told my wife to think of them as wood chucks and give them the deep dunk but noooooo. We have to care for them and with great difficulty get them to a vet to have them neutered. There goes a grand out the window. Now because they are feral you can't give them away so you have to let them go. The difference between feral and domestic cats is not so clear to me. I think cats turn feral about as fast as bee do except it happens much more often with cats.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #40
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    Campbell River, British Columbia Canada
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    Default Re: Human Made Feral Hives

    Quote Originally Posted by peterloringborst View Post
    You are further confusing it by talking about cats, owls and bats. The difference between feral and domestic cats is very distinct. Bees, on the other hand, are not domesticated. They are wild animals whether in a hive or a tree.



    I worked as a NYS bee inspector, and not only is this not in the law, no inspector would do it. We only condemned hives with AFB and had all diagnoses verified by Beltsville.

    African bees are illegal in NYS, but it is impossible to get testing done in a timely manner. Even so, the inspectors do not destroy suspected hives, although personally I would recommend it
    Are bees wild, they have been part of active breeding programs trying to breed certain qualities into them, honey production, calmness and disease resistance, sounds like they are domesticated to me.

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