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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Livingston County, NY
    Posts
    542

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    I did say I would use them again. that is if I get a proactive response from someone that appreciates loyal customers.
    as I stated; the person on the phone called me & told me that they had never heard of the heaters doing that......ok, maybe you call your supplier & talk w/them about. if I am the supplier maybe I want my engineering dept. to field this concern. if the part we make overheats & burns up somebody's place that could be a problem. why when it was on one of the lowest settings did it cook the water completely out? duh! it got really hot! ok. LB says he'll take another one.
    I am not looking for anything more than service of the stuff you sell. Hey maybe we should find out whether or not selling this particular piece is good for our business.

    Biggraham...I would love to finish my beestuff & get some more hay in. all after work!!
    Last edited by lakebilly; 08-24-2014 at 08:37 PM.
    Rmns 1:16/Prv.3:5,6/ Beegan BK May 09/ Zone 5b
    I have NOT failed. I have only found many many ways that do not work!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Cumberland Va.
    Posts
    1,213

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakebilly View Post
    I did say I would use them again. that is if I get a proactive response from someone that appreciates loyal customers.
    as I stated; the person on the phone called me & told me that they had never heard of the heaters doing that......ok, maybe you call your supplier & talk w/them about. if I am the supplier maybe I want my engineering dept. to field this concern. if the part we make overheats & burns up somebody's place that could be a problem. why when it was on one of the lowest settings did it cook the water completely out? duh! it got really hot! ok. LB says he'll take another one.
    I am not looking for anything more than service of the stuff you sell. Hey maybe we should find out whether or not selling this particular piece is good for our business.
    I agree. Well stated........ G

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    First, this was an electrical part, which can have a larger range in part lifetimes. You did get several years of useful life from it.

    If my memory is correct, Kelly sold bi-metal thermostats and cal rods at an economical price for years.

    Maybe it is time to step up to two thermostats in parallel. One in the water and one in the honey. Your setup, although as supplied, was less than optimal.

    Crazy Roland

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,554

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    I like Roland's idea of two thermostats, but in electrical terms, they need to be wired in series in order to function as over-temperature safety switch.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    DFW area, TX, USA
    Posts
    1,123

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    lakebilly, I understand your situation because of my recent experience buying a $7000 Hustler Commercial lawn mower. The belt for the mowing deck failed after 26 hours of operation -an obvious flaw in the belt. There was no warranty on the belt. Did I buy a replacement belt from the dealer? Definitely not! I bought a much heavier belt for less money somewhere else. If I understand your situation, that is kind of where you are....You don't want to buy another inferior and short-lived part for repair. Take rader's advice and shop around.
    LeeB
    I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    havana fl
    Posts
    1,358

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    If I bought 30 gallons of your honey and by the time I got to the last 5 and it was crystallized and I called ya and said hey what are ya going ta do the honey I bought from you a year ago has gone bad What would be your response?? Something to the effect of sorry Charlie. Maybe you would give me a free 5-gallon bucket of honey which is about 200 bucks here. The customer is NOT always right. Suck it up, get over it, move on, life is a beach.. :-)
    Im really not that serious

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    528

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    I am a very small operator; but I buy almost everything that I buy from Mann Lake because of the free shipping. My experience with a problem product was that they even paid for the return shipping.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,703

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    These things are easily removable for a reason....it is the part that will need replacing.

    I've never liked the thermostats on these things (we have 2 of them), but they are the standard and from an engineering perspective, having the thermostat and heater be an off the shelf integrated unit means quick replacement and simplified engineering.

    I've considered bypassing the thermostat and using an industrial thermostat instead...but no matter how sophisticated the thermostat is, a relay can always fail.

    Nothing with a thermostat should ever be trusted unattended unless there is triple redundancy and you check on it regularly.

    Note that the thermostat for your home is sold separately from your furnace....for a reason. The same reason that this thing can be removed and replaced in 5 minutes...without calling a plumber.

    It is a replaceable part that failed after 2-3 years of use. If you can find anyone that offers a warantee of 3 years on a submersible heating element and thermostat I'd be surprised.
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,001

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Note that the thermostat for your home is sold separately from your furnace....for a reason.
    Yes, people like different styles. A failure of your wall thermostat would not compromise the furnace in any way.

    You did touch on an important point. Any appliance that heats should be monitored. Usually the heating element fails and it just cools down but in your case it stuck on. I would be as leery of the control as the element. The same thing could happen to the new element and this is where I agree with Lakebilly. If he is willing to ship it back they should service it for a fee with a 90 day warrantee. However is Mannlake a manufacturer or just a retailer? It would have to go back to the manufacturer, and if that is someplace in China then forget it.

    Not to bring up old threads but if this was a closed oil system a simple hi limit thermostat would have saved the honey.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,554

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    Uhhh ..... most likely the problem with Lakebilly's tank is that the thermostat failed!



    A thermostat that sticks in the ON position will result in the the heater permanently heating until something unexpected happens.


    No matter what, water will not burn. Can you say the same about the oil that you are promoting instead of the water?
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,001

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    I think the water system should have at the very least a tea kettle whistle on the vent.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,554

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    If I were redesigning the tank, Roland's earlier suggestion of a second thermostat in series with the existing one would be my choice.


    With thermostats in series, both thermostats would have to fail for the heater to be stuck ON.
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 08-25-2014 at 07:36 AM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,551

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    This is a pretty important topic in that I know of many instances where thermostats have failed and resulted in fires, some catastrophic. The idea of multiple thermostats is a good one. Given the fact that a well set up redundancy would be virtually unnoticeable how about some suggestions on how one can easily tell whether a failure has occurred in one? Some sort of warning light perhaps?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,452

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakebilly View Post
    In the past 5 years I have been spending money on equipment like a drunken sailor.
    I know the feeling...

    and ya, it seems nobody stands by their products anymore!
    my opinion, dig into your pockets a bit deeper, replace the element, carry on with your day
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,148

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    I would agree with the second stat. They do fail and they do fail on. A second stat set a degree or two higher would have saved the honey.

    As for equipment. You buy equipment you take on maintenance costs. Did Mann Lake say they are a service center? If not why would you want them tinkering with your equipment? At least here there are several appliance repair places. I doubt Mann Lake would offer to tune up your truck either. Regardless of how convenient that may be to you. Just because someone sells something does not mean they service it. in some cases they are not allowed to.

    Chalk it up to the cost of owning and operating a bottler. Maybe not the most cost effective equipment, maybe it is. I have seen far worse. Try $15,000 in vacuums that crapped out in less than 6 months. We sent one back to the manufacturer at their cost to take a look at the problem. so far after 4 months no response. The warranty on these expire in about 60 days. after that it is sorry folks.

    If you do not want to run your operation with the unexpected costs of repairs you need to consider equipment that has extended warranty options. You still pay but at least you can budget for it. Keep in mind many warranties do not cover the cost of labor.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,554

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Given the fact that a well set up redundancy would be virtually unnoticeable how about some suggestions on how one can easily tell whether a failure has occurred in one? Some sort of warning light perhaps?
    I'm not sure how a manufacturer could easily incorporate a thermostat failure warning system.

    But something that could act as a safety device is an independent method of removing power from the bottling tank when the water gets below a specified level. For instance, this device is intended to protect a water pump from a 'no water' failure:

    http://smile.amazon.com/HC3100-Water...productDetails

    Plug the bottling tank into this device, and put the probe in the water (or oil) of the bottling tank. The tank heater should shut down [even with a failed tank heater thermostat] when the water boils off below a level such that the probe is exposed to air.


    Note the Amazon listing does not specify a maximum power rating for the protected pump/tank. Make sure your tank is not overloading the device before use or find a similar device with a higher wattage rating.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 08-25-2014 at 10:20 AM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    lafargeville ny usa
    Posts
    877

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    one other thing that can contribute to element failure is inadequate wiring [too small wire, inadequate service to wire]. as the voltage drops the amperage goes up for a given wattage. if you increase amperage of the element this increases the load the thermostat must carry. turn the machine off if no one is watching.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    West Jordan, UT, USA
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    I think that the manufacturer would have been the correct party to get in touch with for this problem, not the dealer. The manufacturer would be in a much better position to help you troubleshoot the problem and come up with a solution. Mann Lake sells the equipment, but did they manufacture it? Not likely.
    After 3 years this product is likely out of warranty. It was nice of Mann Lake to try to help you fix it, and their suggestion of a new heating element was not out of line, but it might be incorrect, or incomplete advise. As others have stated, it could be the thermostat, or something else. The manufacturer might have a technical assistance line to call. Unless it was built in China, in which case it's up to you, not Mann Lake.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,001

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    The idea of multiple thermostats is a good one. Given the fact that a well set up redundancy would be virtually unnoticeable how about some suggestions on how one can easily tell whether a failure has occurred in one?
    Another thermostat would be the cheapest way out but not the best. Standard temperature controllers come with hi and low limits that will alarm. This is really what you want because it would protect the honey with one device. Another thermostat in series would be a fixed high limit that may prevent boiling over but would just run the process at the high limit until someone shut it off. Maybe PLCnut could pick a cheap one out that would work well with the tanks already maid.

    BTW Watlow is a manufacture of temperature controllers.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,554

    Default Re: Mann Lake rep here on BSource?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Another thermostat in series would be a fixed high limit that may prevent boiling over but would just run the process at the high limit until someone shut it off.
    Two similar thermostats in series with the same/similar temperature settings is what I was referring to.

    In a bottling tank, the thermostat contacts are normally closed (electricity flows) until the temperature reaches a set limit - then the thermostat contacts open (no electricity flows). When the temperature drops, the contacts close again.

    The problem occurs if/when those contacts stick together and don't open when they should. Putting two similar thermostats in series means that as long as at least one of those thermostats works like it should, no overheating will occur.

    Of course, if you leave a bottling tank on and unattended for an extended period the water can still evaporate and create a problem.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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