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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Battle Ground, Washington, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Ok, the Manufacturer just called me and we had a nice conversation, but I don't entirely agree with her. Here are the highlights of what she said (and forgive me if my recall isn't so good).

    1) She believes it was an overheating issue and not a problem with the HGII. Her reasoning is that it is a contact miticide and as a result it would not be likely to kill an entire hive in the fashion mine were.

    2) In the development stages, she said that she personally treated over 250 hives of a commercial beekeeper and never saw any hive kills. And that many of the larger commercial guys, even one near me use it and are pleased with it. She mentioned that with HGII that there was good mite knock down with one two week application and subsequent good overwintering success.

    3) With HG/HGII there is always some incidental bee/brood killed around the strips. The strips being saturated with the product, those bees that contact it when it is very wet will be overcome. Queens can also have the same happen to them if you are unlucky enough to apply the strip where she is located. This makes sense and is what I saw surrounding the strips themselves.

    So in the end this what I believe happened (and BTW, I told her this)...I believe it was overheating that did these hives in. But I also believe it was the presence of HGII in those hives that caused the overheating situation to develop. HG/HGII is not as "bee friendly" as it is advertised to be. Obviously, my bees did not like it in the hive, and its presence alone caused them to exit the hive or in some way become unable to perform hive cooling duties.

    So to those who are thinking of using it, what I would suggest would be to open the entrance full on, open the SBB, or as previously suggested, in some way crack the hive open a little (taking care not to incite a robbing situation) for extra ventilation. I however, with my losses will never use the stuff again and will be tossing what I have left.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Crenshaw County, Alabama
    Posts
    1,999

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    I think you're pretty much on the right track. As Jim Lyon mentioned, the over-heating probably did them in. Bees died from the initial fresh dose of HGII and appears to have blocked the entrance...then it was a ticking clock till the rest of the ones trapped were dead.

    Ed

    ETA: This is making me revisit the idea of top entrances...in this day and time a slight pesticide kill could happen to any of us and could block the lower entrance with dead bees.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Harbor, WA
    Posts
    317

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Ive used Hopguard and still do.

    But I have not tried HG2 yet. When I get it, I'll use with caution. Sorry for the loss

  4. #24

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    I am curious....is there a recommended temperature range for application?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Battle Ground, Washington, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I am curious....is there a recommended temperature range for application?
    I did not ask her that question, but should have. Don't recall reading any temperature range restrictions on the original package instructions.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,711

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Here is a copy of the Hopguard II label instructions:
    http://www.michiganbees.org/wp-conte...rdII-label.pdf

    I didn't find anything there regarding temperature.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    cumberland me
    Posts
    246

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Hi CircleBee,
    I used hopguard I last year with pretty good results. This summer, I purchased hopguard II from Mann Lake for some of the smaller hives. I will wait and hear what you have to say about the lot number.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,624

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    I put Hopguard 2 in several hives over a week ago. They are all strong 3 story hives with 12" wide x 1/2" high lower entrances. So far no ill effects and surprisingly no excessive bearding when compared to neighboring untreated hives. Highs were in the upper 80's. My first impressions is that they don't seem as messy or nasty smelling as the original Hopguard.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Marysville, WA
    Posts
    477

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    I treated 53 nucs with Hopguard II at the begining of August. I didn't have a single queen or hive issue. The definitly were not as messy as the original I think do to the "corragated" aspect of the new strips. The mylar backing kept the bees from discarding them so fast. They smelled the same to me.
    Beekeeper? Shoot, my bees keep me!
    100 hives in Western Wa State

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,624

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Checked some hives today that had Hopguard 2 put in about 2 1/2 weeks ago. Really pleased with the results. Bees showed no adverse effects, queens are still laying and an approximate 400 bee ether roll gathered from 3 treated hives showed 3 mites.
    http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jim...a3cc6.jpg.html
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Lakeland, FL
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Checked some hives today that had Hopguard 2 put in about 2 1/2 weeks ago. Really pleased with the results. Bees showed no adverse effects, queens are still laying and an approximate 400 bee ether roll gathered from 3 treated hives showed 3 mites.
    http://s470.photobucket.com/user/jim...a3cc6.jpg.html
    Jim, are you aware if ML has a quantity discount for HG2? I'd like to try some next year although it is a bit pricey. Thanks for the update.

    Aaron

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,624

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    The 100+ package pricing (shipping included) I got was $34.80 per package of 24 strips. We are using the recommended 2 strips under the excluder in our excluded singles. 2 strips per each 10 frames of bees is recommended meaning a populous double would require 4 strips.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    West River, MD, USA
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    I realize this thread is a couple months old now, but I just read it all the way through. I am in southern Maryland and run on average about 100 hives, most all as 8-frame double deeps and some triples. I treated about 50 with Apivar which I had used with excellent results last year on all hives, and I treated the other 44 hives with Hopguard-2. Of those Hopguard-2 treatments, I had 4 hives killed by the application much the same as the original poster reported. One triple among 14 hives in the first yard, one double among 9 hives in another yard, and one double and one triple among 21 hives in the third yard. All of the hives in those 3 yards were applied exactly the same way, with dosages of 4 strips staggered and separated, two in the lower and two in the upper in the triples and 2 strips in the lowers of the doubles. All entrances were wide open (12" X 3/4") except the double in the second yard had a reduced entrance (4" X 1/2"). All had upper entrances, and all were open and not clogged with bees up top. In all cases, the hives were strong with 10-14 brood frames, and packed with bees, and although I was moving queens out of the way before inserting strips if I could quickly spot them, I can't say that these 4 hives had their queens moved or not. No matter, every bee in every one of the four died within 24 hours. There were large piles of dead bees outside in front of each of them, as well as the entire cluster dead inside piled up on the bottom board and right on up through the frames in the bottom boxes. Very few bees in the upper boxes and upper entrances were open. All the other hives in all three yards were treated exactly the same without any other casualties. There was no apparent robbing going on through the open top entrances by the remaining hives after the fact and no sign of robbing within the hives as a causative. The affected four hives were of 3 different races, Cordovan Italian, Carniolan X VSH, and VSH X local drones. The treatment of all three yards was accomplished in one day, but at different times as it took me all day to do it. The yards have varying amounts of sun/shade with one having morning shade, one having afternoon shade, and one in full sun. All are on freeman beetle bottom boards, inner covers and tele-tops with upper entrances. 3 were overwintered colonies/queens and one was a spring package start on drawn combs. All hives are on straight row stands, and all of the affected hives had closely adjacent hives that were unaffected. I am convinced the mortality was caused by the application of the Hopguard, but it was all from the same lot though different packages of strips. I followed directions, placing all strips into a plastic container and squeezed excess chemical from the foil package, and made sure each corrugated strip was well coated in the chemical as it was applied to the frame. I did not notice any difference in my application between one hive to the next. I experienced no other hive or queen mortality among the other HG-2 treated hives, and zero losses with the 50 Apivar (amitraz) treated hives. I did not notify the manufacturer as I really did not think that I would be compensated and was not in a mood to argue with a customer service rep over the issue. That was wrong of me and I regret not having reported it and possibly helping to save someone else a similar grief. I was angry at the loss and just decided I would not venture to try their product again. Chagrinned perhaps because the original HG had bad reviews as being messy and ineffective, while the Mann Lake advertising tooted the new and improved HG-2 to have corrected all the issues and made me feel like we had a new silver bullet in an organic treatment. No disrespect to M/L intended. I will stick with Apivar and OAV and hygenic bees I think. I think that a 10% "whole hive" mortality rate is too high, and I am glad some of the other users had better luck with it in their cases.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    boone county indiana
    Posts
    60

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    I did not have good results with HG. Used it 3 times as recommended on a strong colony that produced over 100 pounds of honey with low mite levels (3 to 5 on a 24 hour drop, 1 or 0 in a powder sugar shake)until Early August when the mite level exploded. I saw excellent mite drops and thought the product was going to be a helpful tool in the box. Two weeks after the 3rd treatment the 24 hour drops were above 50 without treatment and I quit counting the number in a sugar roll because the numbers were off the charts. Maybe the mite infestation rate at the time of application is to blame?

    Apivar treatments on my other hives in early August seems to have knocked the mites back to manageable levels.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    cumberland me
    Posts
    246

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    I had good results with Hopguard 2. I needed to do a second application for mite treatment. The first treatment was with Mite-away quick strip. A month later I used Hopguard 2. I only did this follow-up application with three hives (10 frame double deeps with solid bottom board and 7/8th vent hole in 2nd deep). I had the entrance on medium.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Battle Ground, Washington, USA
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Hopguard II and Hive Kills

    Thanks rfgreenwell for posting and I'm sorry you lost your hives the way I did. I feel your pain and I'm sorry I couldnt have done more to prevent your loss. I find your reply very interesting though as it sounds as though heat/direct sun may not have been as much a factor in your situation. Kind of throws a wrench into the manufacturers theory in my case. I really don't know what to think about why in some cases hives do fine and in others they completely collapse dead with the stuff?? What I do know though is that it IS the HG2 doing it, I don't care what the manufacturer or anyone else thinks.

    I have to be honest and admit I am not at all surprised to hear your story. After my talk with the manufacturer, I was fed up as I realized that my loss was basically being ignored, and I thought to myself, "this will catch up to them because I know with 100% certainty that what happened to me will happen to others". Unfortunately, its going to take bees/hives dying to get that across to them. Anyway, I would strongly suggest to you that you contact the manufacturer and let them know, its the only way that the problem with their product will come to light. And I'll tell you this to give credit to them, in my case I spoke to one of the researchers that developed the product, not some customer service person. Also, I too got my HG2 from Mann Lake, and while I love ML and will continue to buy from them, they made absolutely no attempt to even acknowledge my email to them regarding the issue. And like you, I too was woo'd by ML's description of HG2 as this wonderful bee friendly, soft treatment. All very disappointing.

    If you do end up contacting the manufacturer, I'd love to hear what they have to say to you, if you are willing to share. Thanks again and best of luck to you and your bees!

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